cheap TBC or anti-Macrovision device ?

[lordsmurf]

I want to add another TBC (or at minimum an anti-Macrovision device that REALLY works, even on the fake Macro errors that are really bad source).

Anybody have any input on the cheapest option available ?

[FOO]

The MV removers can't fix bad source because it's
jittery timing. All they do is get rid of extra syncs.

Go buy a full frame TBC and tell us how it works

[ajc53]

I have had some success using the SIMA CT-1 on the lowest setting with MMC's Heavy Video Soap filter Combo 1 at 100% strength.

It seems to knock a lot of it down in the Video Soap Preview window and in the subsequent capture.

[lordsmurf]

The MV removers can't fix bad source because it's
jittery timing. All they do is get rid of extra syncs.
Go buy a full frame TBC and tell us how it works

I was afraid of that.
I was mostly hoping to learn of some magic toy. 8)
I'm watching several auctions right now for TBCs.

I'm just not wanting to spend much money on it.
This is for play more than work.

[qlizard]

Did you see the datavideo 4000 that went last week for $200? I got bid out at the last second...

[upshot]

I'm not sure what you consider cheap... I think I spent too much on my sima scc-2 ($170) but it does seem to handle macro like a charm and has a bunch of bells and whistles to boot.

It's a nice unit...

[Alan69]

The MV removers can't fix bad source because it's
jittery timing. All they do is get rid of extra syncs.
Go buy a full frame TBC and tell us how it works

I was afraid of that.
I was mostly hoping to learn of some magic toy. 8)
I'm watching several auctions right now for TBCs.

I'm just not wanting to spend much money on it.
This is for play more than work.

Actually Foo's answer isn't all there is. All video tapes have some jitter but also have extra noise. It may well be the extra noise setting off the MV especially on your ATI, not jitter. So a MV device that outputs clean black for the upper lines may help, depends on which the ATI or other equipment is actually triggering on.

For myself I'd make a box to look for vertical sync, then pass only the horizontal sync pulses that come at about the right times for the upper lines. All other times in the upper lines would output generated clean video. Plus then I could purposefully output noise spikes in different places, and determine exactly what the problem is with the ATI's.

A lot of MV devices only blank during the spots where MV pulses are really supposed to be. That would be much less likely to help than one that generates it's own video levels for all of the upper lines, so have to know exactly what you're getting or make it yourself.

Think of it this way, make your own clean video for the upper block, then switch to the source signal for the visible field. You may get some tearing at the top visible lines if your generated syncs aren't matched perfectly to the source syncs, but you surely won't get macrovision problems if they're coming from the upper block.

Alan

[FOO]

The ATI is triggering on early Hsync pulses.
noise could do that as well as really bad timing.

Good MV removers don't generate sync pulses. They just
remove the extra ones. The signal is replaced by a
"reference black" which is sampled on the "back porch"
and remembered for the rest of the line.
They will remove noise on those lines also ( and closed captions etc )

I have a microprocessor controlled one in the works. I wish I'd get
off my ass and finish it.

[ajc53]

The ATI is triggering on early Hsync pulses.
noise could do that as well as really bad timing.

I am assuming a better VCR than mine, say a JVC HRS 9911 with some TBC and noise reduction, would help with this problem.

Do you agree?

[FOO]

I doubt they would filter MV. it's probably illegal or something

[Alan69]

The ATI is triggering on early Hsync pulses.
noise could do that as well as really bad timing.

Good MV removers don't generate sync pulses. They just
remove the extra ones. The signal is replaced by a
"reference black" which is sampled on the "back porch"
and remembered for the rest of the line.
They will remove noise on those lines also ( and closed captions etc )

I have a microprocessor controlled one in the works. I wish I'd get
off my ass and finish it.

No difference between passing one that's in the right spot, and making your own in the right spot off of it's timing, so no sense switching to the real signal just for the sync pulse. Plus you can then follow a weighted average, project the slope of any timing error in the VCR signal, and have your syncs follow a smooth line yet still end up in the right spot for the rest of the frame. More I'm thinking about it the more I want to make it, seems like an easy thing to do just from a PIC video generator and a little extra work. Also could filter the other places for the newer forms of MV.

Heck may not really take that much more to add a fast ADC and DAC, some ram, and make a simple TBC.

JVC has the VHS patents, so VCRs have or had to have MV support. Not sure when the patents run out, should be fairly soon.


Sold for just disabling MV it would be illegal. But sold to clean out the junk that MV causes with a lot of equipment it wouldn't be. MV tends to go after these hard, but as long as you're marketed not as a MV disabler you should be ok and it'd be up to the user's responsibility. Wouldn't take 5 minutes in court to show MV is lying about their protection's transparency and that a lot of equipment is affected negatively by it. Not that they couldn't pressure or buy off a judge, but you should win if sued. But marketing as a 'disabler' would get you fried of course.

I just got in some tuner modules to run with a PIC based remote to make an older TV tune in cable. Since I'll be working with them and composite video anyway may well go ahead and make this too, it's been in the back of my head for a while.

Alan

[FOO]

No difference between passing one that's in the right spot, and making your own in the right spot off of it's timing, so no sense switching to the real signal just for the sync pulse.

Except that it's a hell of a lot easier because it's an analog signal which moves around and you don't have easy access to the sync tip voltage

[ajc53]

Go Alan Go!!!!!

Technically speaking, I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds good to me.

[lordsmurf]

Actually the problem is for a VHS->VHS or VHS->Recorder setup for some old home movie copies I'm about to do. Family wants more copies, but I can't take away time from the paying projects I have on my desk.

Some of them are old and the things trigger MV protection and set off AGC hi-lo brightness for no real reason.

I won't need it for long, so I'm hoping something for about $100, but that may just be wishful thinking.

The JVC S-VHS players normally kill CG and MV. But sigh, no extra JVC like this available to me either.

[Alan69]

No difference between passing one that's in the right spot, and making your own in the right spot off of it's timing, so no sense switching to the real signal just for the sync pulse.

Except that it's a hell of a lot easier because it's an analog signal which moves around and you don't have easy access to the sync tip voltage

Now if you don't know precisely where your legitimate syncs are despite their moving around, then how are you expecting to pass them and only them and be sure your MV removal is in the correct place? Only way to really get rid of everything is to just generate your own clean video and get it aligned to the tape's video for the upper lines. You can have easy access to any part of the signal you want to have access to, there's nothing that hard about doing what you like with a video signal and it's there for the TV so it's there for me. I may just get the stuff and do a full on frame buffer and TBC, doing quite a bit of VHS to DVD conversions for others now myself.


http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/video/sx/pong.php

This guy's SX color video generation looks excellent to start with. The B&W versions would be enough for just getting rid of MV, but I have interest in a few other projects as well. Hmm a framebuffer from one source synched to another and overlayed should make a genlock. Amazing how good the color looks on that, can't wait to build one now. Have to get some SX's in here, only have normal PICs at the moment, and they aren't fast enough to handle making color.

[FOO]

If you don't know precisely where your legitimate syncs are
how the hell will you generate anything and "align" it ?
What do you "align" it to ?

My reference to "moving around" was the DC level which varies

Tell you what , why don't you take a couple of hours off and make a
full frame buffer TBC. With a PIC On a breadboard

[lordsmurf]

I may just give up and get the AVT-8710 for $185 shipped. I'm still thinking about it, unless a better deal comes up.

[Alan69]

If you don't know precisely where your legitimate syncs are
how the hell will you generate anything and "align" it ?
What do you "align" it to ?

My reference to "moving around" was the DC level which varies

Which is trivial enough, why did you mention it like it was something nearly impossible to do in the first place? And you have to sample the DC level anyway, you can't just pass this area, shifting it up to white level is part of MV so you have to read it in the good lines and make it in the offscreen lines. Not sure what you were expecting to do without doing this but it wouldn't remove macrovision.

Tell you what , why don't you take a couple of hours off and make a
full frame buffer TBC. With a PIC On a breadboard

Full TBC was done with amazingly little hardware by one of the CPLD guys on one of the lists I'm on. Doesn't take that much extra to split things up and use a PIC as the main controller and use a little extra hardware for the things it can't handle alone.



Lordsmurf:
Maybe build up one of these simple MV removers:
http://www.loonyjuicesoftware.freeserve.co.uk/downld.html

Just a simple pass through type so won't do some of the minor fixes I am planning but it's simple and will do around 95% of what I was describing. And should be pretty cheap, around $20 or less. Wouldn't bother even doing what I was originally talking about with this one, but since I want to do the color video generator anyway I may do it just for kicks since it won't be much more to do.

Alan

[Alan69]

I won't need it for long, so I'm hoping something for about $100, but that may just be wishful thinking.

The JVC S-VHS players normally kill CG and MV. But sigh, no extra JVC like this available to me either.

If you won't need it long then maybe even a rental would be an idea. Probably a bit more than building your own video stabilizer, but if you can do what you need in a weekend or week it may be less hassle.

Alan

[FOO]

That's better than most , but still has problems

[next]

The MV removers can't fix bad source because it's
jittery timing. All they do is get rid of extra syncs.
Go buy a full frame TBC and tell us how it works

I was afraid of that.
I was mostly hoping to learn of some magic toy. 8)
I'm watching several auctions right now for TBCs.

I'm just not wanting to spend much money on it.
This is for play more than work.

From an expert? Lordsmurf you are a pro we depend on you. Toys should not be a concern of yours. Let us know what you find out.

[BrainStorm69]

LS, you might consider the SIMA Color Corrector. I bought mine for $88 at Amazon. I think it might work for what you want. In fact, if you're in my area, I could probably let you borrow mine for a short time just to test. If you're interested, PM me.

EDIT: Looks like it's now down to $79.80 at Amazon.

EDIT 2: Looks like Amazon also has the SCC-2 (newer, digital version with 2 outputs) mentioned by upshot (above) for $143.95.

[underwurlde]

Alan69...

'Full TBC was done with amazingly little hardware by one of the CPLD guys on one of the lists I'm on. Doesn't take that much extra to split things up and use a PIC as the main controller and use a little extra hardware for the things it can't handle alone.'

To an electronics engineer (like me) trying to construct a cheap TBC that hopefully ppl here can use, your above snippet is akin to a golden carrot!

Any chance of posting a schematic etc?

Regards,

Andy.