Toast Marking DVDs as Generational Copies (Edit: never mind)

[WiseWeasel]

Toast Titanium 6.0 is changing certain bytes of data in the IFO, BUP and VOB files of DVDs, apparently marking them as generational copies. This prevents them from working on certain newer DVD players, saying that there are copy control limitations. Strangely, Toast does this for DVDs that have been backed up, but knows not to do this for the output of DVD Studio Pro. Tools like DVD Imager and DVD2OneX's 'create image' function also change the data, leading us (Geezerbutts discovered this) to believe that this is a problem in some low-level OS X frameworks.

The only burning tool we could find that doesn't do this is Charismac Discribe, which copies DVD folders to DVD-R verbatim. Apparently, it uses its own code for accessing the data. Unfortunately, it has some interface shortcomings, but it's less important than changed data.

So, in summary, you guys should all switch to Discribe if you care about keeping your data integrity intact, and not having newer DVD players refuse to play the backups. It seems to be a problem introduced since MacOS 10.3, and affects all OS X framework access to commercial DVD backups, and not to DVD Studio Pro DVD folders. Be on the lookout for this new copy protection. The subject line is a little misleading, as it's really a problem with MacOS 10.3, and not with Toast in particular.

[Edit] Changed post title, as we've uncovered more info on this behavior, and it might actually be a problem with DVD2OneX, DVDRemaster and Discribe. [/Edit]

[schmeg]

Slightly sideways followup question:

I use toast 5.2.3 to back up discs using my now-ancient Pioneer A04/104. When thinking about upgrading to a Pioneer 107, will I need a new solution to disc burning as well, or has anyone found that Toast 5.2.3 can handle a 4X disc?

Thanks.

[galactica]

That really SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Screw that!
Now im not liking to toast app on my site!!!

but they will always play on the mac's themselves right?!

what about toast 5? does it do it?

[deadsierra]

If it really is a problem with 10.3, send a bug report to Apple.

[WiseWeasel]

They will play on the Mac, no problem, and on most (older) DVD players. In fact, we've only encountered a newer Sony player (in Europe) that didn't play backups with these changed bytes.

It's really not Toast's fault. Toast 5.x and 6.x are both affected (I think). Also, making an image with DVD Imager or 'create image' in DTOX also changes this data. It really seems to be Apple's fault, marking backup DVDs as generational copies in a low-level framework since MacOS 10.3. Discribe uses its own access to the filesystem, and thus is not affected by Apple's underhanded DRM tactics. (Un)Surprisingly, DVD Studio Pro DVD folders are not changed when copied with Toast or any of the imagers.

[WiseWeasel]

If it really is a problem with 10.3, send a bug report to Apple.

Somehow, I don't think Apple will change this, since they obviously put a lot of thought into making it possible. They want to do this. I think a better course of action would be to complain to Roxio, and try to get them to find new filesystem access methods that would bypass this issue, like Discribe does. The threat of losing business to Discribe might motivate them to find a solution here.

[WiseWeasel]

OK, it seems there's more going on than we suspected here. It actually may be the case that Toast is fixing some problems in the files' structure that are caused by DVD2One and DVDRemaster munging the DVD files, and messing up their alignment. UDF DVD files need to be aligned properly in 2048 byte blocks, and so when Toast (and UDF imagers) align the data into the correct blocks, they automatically change the sector addresses located in the various files. It seems it's Discribe that's not doing things correctly, and misaligning the DVD data. We'll have to do a lot more testing, but it seems it might actually be a problem with DVD2OneX and DVDRemaster, as well as Discribe, and not with Toast and the DVD imagers. More to come, including more testing with the new Sony player that seemed to have problems before. Stay tuned.

[pusa]

The funny thing is that I've actually downloaded "Discribe."

[galactica]

i assume you are referring to the demo

[pusa]

Yes, it's the demo. You thought I actually paid the program?