Panny E-80 DVD-R or Not? Novice Unsure

[inova1]

As a "never owned a dvd recorder" and "don't know anyone who does" novice, here is a question to pose to you multi dvd knowledgable owners.

I'm looking to replace my video recorder with a dvd recorder. I intended to buy a Panny E-50 due to outstanding user reviews, but once I read all the posts comparing this Panny to the E-80, buying the 80gig hard drive made more sense due to its expanded editing capabilities. I even bookmarked Thoots' wonderful post showing its ease of usage. The one draw back, from what I've read, is when I watch ER (or other shows) on my friends DVD players, their DVDs will not accept my RAM discs. I would have to finalize one time recordings to DVD-R. Probably never needing to watch these episodes again, I've ultimately created coasters. Is my thought on coaster making justifiable to purchase any DVD Recorder with only DVD-R capability, or just go out and buy the E-80 and make the 20 coasters a year?

So again I look at the Sony GRX7 which allows Playback in these recording modes DVD-RW/-R, DVD+RW/+R, CD-R/RW, as well as Recording DVD+RW/-RW/-R modes. Are most (or all) of these modes playable in others peoples DVD players, and which modes can I record over like a VCR can, repeatably using the same DVD again?

Videos were great for its time because you were capable of recording to it from your tv, playing the cassette in someone elses machine, and then you could rerecorded over the one tape till it died. It seems unjustifyable to finalize a dvd for one viewing just to play it in a friends DVD player. What is your view on this?

Aside from whaat I've written above, for those who have used this Sony, is it any good, or is there another model I should look at? What I need to do is transfer to DVD the many tv shows I've kept for posterity, be able to view ER on friends DVD players, and be able to record over it once we're done watching the show. I don't have a fancy set up: tv has yellow, white, and red in and out lines, Time Warner cable box, and wish to connect my old video to the DVD. Thanks for your time....

Marie

[spiderman2k1]

You could just go buy a cheep Panasonic DVD player they all play DVD-RAM.

[lordsmurf]

I'd buy a DVD+RW drive to play anywhere. None of the other formats does that very well.

I have an APEX DRX-9000 and never need to "finalize" or copy or edit. I record, take the DVD+RW with me, watch it wherever, and then erase when I get back home. The end.

[Synergy]

What I need to do is transfer to DVD the many tv shows I've kept for posterity, be able to view ER on friends DVD players, and be able to record over it once we're done watching the show. I don't have a fancy set up: tv has yellow, white, and red in and out lines, Time Warner cable box, and wish to connect my old video to the DVD.

Standalone DVD recorders are supposed to be more advanced than VCRs other than using digital media instead of tapes, and the DVD-VR mode used on the re-writable media (DVD-RW or DVD-RAM) provides many advanced editing functions, but most DVD players do not recognize discs recorded in the VR mode. If playing ER episodes on another DVD player and reusing the media are important issues, then make sure that your friend's players are compatible with either DVD-RW or DVD+RW media (not every DVD player is compatible with these re-writable media, especially the older ones). Apparently Panasonic recorders do not fit your needs with their chosen re-writable media (DVD-RAM), but there are other brands would, such as Pioneer, Toshiba, Lite-On, or Philips, since they all use either DVD-RW or DVD+RW as re-writable media.

There is no perfect DVD recorder at this moment, but if you want compatibility with most DVD players, then consider either DVD+RW or DVD-RW as the re-writable media used by your DVD recorder. BTW, Sony recorder is an excellent product, but way overpriced for a non-hard disk model. Also if you record a lot of TV programs, then eventually you'll find out that a hard disk is almost a necessity.

[lordsmurf]

Also if you record a lot of TV programs, then eventually you'll find out that a hard disk is almost a necessity.

This is not an attack against you, but the idea itself...

For what reason does a HD need to be present? If the recorder started out at a good enough quality (like an LSI or Zoran chipped recorder) to get good 4-hour mode, then why? Even low and medium quality recorders have good 2-hour mode. Again, why?

When would a typical record more than 2-4 hours in a row? I'm an atypical user by all rights, and I cannot grab more than 2-4 hours at any given time at most. Most people want to record one-offs or show collectors want to record weekly or even daily. Maybe even a few shows daily. At some point, your HD fills up anyway, and it'll take time to burn off. Why not just burn to the DVD+RW/-RW/-RAM to start with? Going to do editing? Okay, then you want it for editing, not because you record a lot. Saying "I want a HD to edit, because I have no desire/time/hardware to edit on my PC" is the only REALLY good reason to get a HD unit. If this is not you, you DO NOT NEED a HD unit.

I have no ill will towards you. I just want people to THINK about this often-said but often-wrong concept of "you need a HD if you record a lot". I have 50 DVD+RW discs at my disposal. They're a lot cheaper and a heck of a lot more convenient that a HD. Again ... why? What use is a HD when you can already use re-recordable formats. The best a HD can be for is weak watered-down editing (as compared to PC) or for using as TIVO-like functions. This is an open ended question, and I'm doing it for the novice. I don't want him to think a HD is necessary for $XXX more when it's not.

[Synergy]

Why? For what reason does a HD need to be present? If the recorder started out at a good enough quality (like an LSI chipped recorder) to get good 4-hour mode, then why? Even low and medium quality recorders have good 2-hour mode. Again, why?

As you have pointed out clearly, most recorders can record at most 6-hour of programs on a disc (although Panasonic's newest models stretch to 8-hour). Just because you have no use for a hard-disk, it doesn't mean everyone else has the time to swap discs on a recorder every 2 or 4 hours.

I have been amused by your know-it-all balnket statements for a while, and if I am not concerned by your spread of half truth, I'd think you should be a comedian since you are much better at amusing people than providing any objective viewpoints.

[lordsmurf]

I don't "know-it-all" and I don't say anything that is "half truth" .... I just prefer to think for myself and I refuse to buy into poorly-constructed myth sales POV like a typical lemming. If you say "something is needed", then you'd better give a damned good reason WHY it is so "needed". Salesman always try to tell me how warranties are "needed" and mechanics always talk about how "our brand of air filter" is "needed" when both of those people were so full of shit they saw brown. This situation is no different. Aside from editing or mocking TIVO, a HD is not normally needed.

Funny how you still DID NOT answer the question. Not surprised.
Most salesmen crack when you back them into a corner. Are you telling me your record tv shows all day long to fill up a HD? That doesn't sound right to me. Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Synergy]

Funny how you still DID NOT answer the question. Not surprised.
Most salesmen crack when you back them into a corner. Are you telling me your record tv shows all day long to fill up a HD? That doesn't sound right to me. Sorry, I don't buy it.

As mentioned numerous times by many already and sorry for your ADD, A hard disk model makes it much easier to organize time-shift recordings even if editing functions are not considered. It's simply a matter of cost/benefit consideration and YMMV. The Panasonic DMR-E80H was the number one selling unit in the industry according to Panasonic's press release clearly demonstrates that most buyers do have a need for a hard disk model, or they are all stupid and conned by salespeople.

[inova1]

If this post shows up twice, I appologize in advance. My computer froze and couldn't find my post when I rebooted. First, thanks for everyone's thoughts, and hopfully my posting didn't begin another riff between those who are in favor of DVDs with Hard Drives and those who favor without. my intention was not to create another riff. Anyway, I certainly appreciate reading both views again. I realize there is not a happy recording medium in the DVD world, unless your final editing is on a PC or MAC (of which I won't just yet). As mentioned many times by knowledgable posters in this forum, what's good for you might not be good for me in DVD purchasing.

LordSmurf, I checked Apex DVD, and from what most users posted at Amazon they aren't giving it as high a recommendation as you have. I can only surmise the Apex didn't meet these owner's requirements. Aside from this, you're not the only person who's posted their overpriced (though recommended) view on the Sony. A few have paid the price, but are essentially happy with it. But I believe you're on to something. I'll look into Pioneer, Toshiba, Lite-On, or Philips unless someone in this forum already favors one over another to point me to.

As for me, I probably record anywhere from 2 to 6 hours a week, of which some of the 6 hour recordings are for ER episodes to watch with friends. Other recordings are of movies to watch with friends. This is probably why I wouldn't need a recorder with a hard drive. To end my purchasing quandary, DVD-RW/DVD+RW is the media that plays on other DVD players (as long as other player accepts either one) because IT DOSN'T HAVE TO BE FINALIZED like a DVD-R (do I understand this correctly). Aside from this, I'll be duping collection of video tv movies, and shows to retrieve some space on my shelves. Someone did bring up something that I never thought twice about till now. Please tell me why time-shift editing could be important to me???? I must not have a true understanding of this editing capability. I've only considered editing for removing commercials from tv shows and movies. I'm probably beating this buying decision to the ground (sorry), but this is my first DVD purchase, and as suggested you can't trust what a salesperson says you need. I don't believe in buying warrentees on everything. Again, thank you all for your help.

Marie

[lordsmurf]

That may not necessarily be as true with DVD-RW as it is with DVD+RW, as it applies to not needing any "finalization" of any sort.

With a DVD+RW recorder, you can hit record, hit stop, hit eject, then put the disc in another player, and it should play fine.

A DVD-RW disc has far less DVD-Video compatibility than a DVD+RW disc. This is just another fact, sort of like DVD-R being better than a DVD+R in this regard.

You can still cut out commercials on-the-disc with a recorder (actually, just hide the footage, not remove it in reality), but I know DVD+RW recorders don't do this very well, and can corrupt the IFOs. This kind of editing is better served on write-once or DVD-RAM formats. Again, zero HD is needed for this. Full removal (not just hiding) needs secondary file access, like a HD.

Most reviews at Amazon are horrible. Much like eBay, it's full of people that have zero clue, so their reviews really reflect that. The only "problem" with an Apex is it needs the firmware upgrade out-of-the-box (before copying homemade VHS tapes), and the other real problem is a slight chance of an exploding power supply (unlikely, but happens in a small % of units). It's a moot point now anyway, as this model is currently being replaced by the DRX-9200 and DRX-9300 (according to a recent press release I saw). Look at the LiteOn and JVC models for LSI chips.

Next step is the Zoran chip recorders, like Sharp, Sony, Pioneer, and Toshiba. Sharp is buggy, Sony is overpriced. Toshiba, maybe. Pioneer best bet here.

Then you have the rest. The Cirrus chips (Cyberhome, Mustek, etc) and the in-house chips (Panasonic and others). These are the lower quality recorders. They'll have a range of flaws from quality to bad workmanship. Some of them have "features" like TBC and HD and DVD-RAM, but it doesn't make up for quality in my eyes.

I'm in the process of making a DVD recorder buyer's guide, but still hunting down info on the smaller recorders first.

You're best with a LSI or Zoran for quality, then the DVD+RW for ease of use. Only get a HD if you need to edit or want TIVO-like use; this doesn't sound up your alley.

Your original instincts of Sony may be right on track, if you have the $$$ to support it.

[Tom Roper]

I'm not sure I get this championing of the Zoran chip, for according to
Stacey Spears, author of Secrets DVD Benchmark, their mpeg decoders are notoriously poor, the latest examples still showing evidence of the CUE bug.

Smurf's been on a fishing expedition asking Panny owners to open up the chassis of their DVDRs to tell him what's inside. If you don't already know the answer to that, but can go on record saying they use in-house chips with a range of flaws and bad workmanship, you should start seeing red warning flags that somebody is carrying out an anti-brand agenda.

It is exactly because of people who will post tripe like that that you can't trust everything you read, and I sought assurance on my own, which is to say I went out and compared the recorded quality of DVD's made on the Sony and Panasonic myself.

Take your camcorder into a retailer, and demo the machine you are interested in to make a DVD from your camcorder tape. Take the DVD home and analyse the playback quality in your DVD player.

I found the Sony and Panasonic to be virtually indistiguishable at the highest quality settings, and saved quite a bit of coin and gained a HDD. If anything, the Panasonic with hard drive can make even better DVD recordings if you are capturing TV programs with commercial breaks inserted, compared to any recorder that doesn't.

For example, you want to put (4) one hour episodes onto a DVD disk. On the Sony, since it has no hard drive, you have to use a lower bit rate because the entire 4 hours has to fit on the recorded disk. But on the Panasonic, you set Flexible Recording mode to 3 hours, and record the 4 episodes to the HDD. After you edit the commercials out, you're left with 3 hours, recorded at the equivalent bit rate to fill a single 4.7gb blank DVD to capacity. You high-speed dub the 4 episodes (3 hours) from the HDD to a blank DVD disk, losslessly and without re-encoding. You can't do better!

The Panasonic E80H is low on the features list, but high on picture quality and usefulness by most accounts (Lordsmurf being an exception). The HDD gives you a lot of options and value. My $0.02

[lordsmurf]

Smurf's been on a fishing expedition asking Panny owners to open up the chassis of their DVDRs to tell him what's inside. If you don't already know the answer to that, but can go on record saying they use in-house chips with a range of flaws and bad workmanship, you should start seeing red warning flags that somebody is carrying out an anti-brand agenda.

I got my answers within days from PM, e-mail and another site. I had a person open up his case and look for chips even. I get more than 100 messages per day via e-mail, and you're just not privvy to that. I can see where you're coming from, but you're wrong.

I have no anti-brand agenda. I have anti-low-quality agenda and an anti-no-reason-to-say-it-is-good agenda. More people owning and parading Panasonic doesn't mean it's a better machine ... it simply means more people own and parade the units.

I don't read other reviews. I don't buy marketing hype. I don't care if it is Stacey Spears or Britney Spears. These people and these credentials mean nothing to me. I use my own eyes, and then I read tech documents to understand why I see what I see. What I see is LSI (Apex, JVC, LiteOn) giving amazing quality results, and then Zoran (Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba, Sharp) coming in close at second. Then you get Panasonic and Cirrus and others after that. I'm a big fan of original research, not of rehashing other people's work.

And in regards to DVD recorders ... and video in general ... I ONLY ... ONLY care about image quality. Everything else is just not as important.

...
To put anybody's guessing aside, I was out to pick a fight today. Poor newbies are always told they "must" get that and they "need" to get that. It's just not true. What they need is to see all avenues, without being blinded by marketing hype. This guy needs a DVD+RW recorder, and nothing more. He has several options. That fills his requirements. Anything extra is just extra. The sky will not fall if he skips over Panasonic, and I want to support that option, not make it feel like a bad option.

[Tom Roper]

Talk to the hand...I saw what your agenda was when you were fishing. It's why I compared them for myself, and recommend anyone else do the same.

[lordsmurf]

Talk to the hand....

I'm nominating this for one of Will Hay's "wanker" awards. Grow up, young one, your age is showing.

[inova1]

Hi, I'm back with info on a new Sharp "buggy". I must admit having a hard drive (such as the Panny E-80) presented something of interest to me, but not enough since you can only play a finalized DVD-R coaster in another player that reads it, and the DVD Ram isn't readable is most DVD players yet. The Sony GR7 offers a vast amount of saving choices, but it is pricey. Still, I was this_close to ordering one till I took one more surf around the WWW, stumbling on this Sharp that just came on market. For the price (less than $500 at Amazon), it offers "80 gig hard drive and DVD-R/DVD-RW recording capabilities my friends players can read). Being that Amazon has a 30 day return policy, I'm thinking it could be worth buying this possible buggy product--just have to find out what the bugs could be. Here's a link to read about it http://www.sharpUSA.com/about/AboutPressKits/0,1108,379,00.html. Any comments????

[handyguy]

U can get an E50 at Target for $224.00 as of yesterday. Not a sale price, it's a clearance price. Our store has it for that price.

[Synergy]

I took one more surf around the WWW, stumbling on this Sharp that just came on market. For the price (less than $500 at Amazon), it offers "80 gig hard drive and DVD-R/DVD-RW recording capabilities my friends players can read).

Amazon is selling this model for $399.99 with free shipping, which is a very attractive price for a stanalone DVD recorder with HD. You can read a few users' comments on the previous Sharp model:

https://www.videohelp.com/dvdwriters.php?DVDname=sharp&Submit=Search&cdrs=&cdrws=&dvdrs...&Search=Search

Just note that you need to record the DVD-Video instead of DVD-VR mode on the DVD-RW discs, and finalize them before they can be played by other DVD players.

Edited: Also found a review of the Sharp DV-HR300 from Sound & Vision:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=604&page_number=1