Quality & Compatibility

[DCA_Guy]

I've been researching the best tabletop DVD recorder for the past several weeks. That's how I happened on this great VideoHelp website.

In shopping for a DVD recorder, I want to achieve high quality while maintaining compatibility. However, I've come to a definite divide in the road: DVD Recording Format vs. Video Input Options.

It seems that the DVD recording format that is most COMPATIBLE with other DVD players is DVD -R/RW. And, one of the FEW brands that provides QUALITY Component video Input is Philips. Yet, Philips seems to only support DVD +R/RW recording format.

The ONLY box I've seen that supports both -R/RW & +R/RW recording formats is the Sony RDR-GX7. However, it does NOT have component video input. The best quality input signal on that box, looks to be S-Video.

My 3 questions are:

A - Given my objectives of maintaining Quality & Compatibility, what recomendations can anyone make for a tabletop DVD recorder (that will work with my satellite DVR)?

B - Will DVD's recorded with +R/RW format play on -R/RW players?

C - How bad is the degradation in quality between Component on Phillips and S-Video on Sony?

I appreciate any assistance with this challenge. As this market is really the epitome of consumer confusion.

Thank you for your help.

Dana

[piano632]

Sony is supposed to have new models out soon with +/- support.

There are a lot of complaints about Philips recorders malfunctioning, so I would think twice about buying one of those. Generally speaking, I think - recorders are more reliable than + ones. You can read reviews of various recorders by clicking on "DVD writers" on the left column and searching for desktop recorders.

I think there are a couple other high-end models that have component input. Panasonic DMR-E100 might be one. I don't know how much improvement there would be between s-video and component input. On most recorders, you can barely see any difference between composite and s-video input because the recorder "upgrades" a composite signal to s-video quality. It might be a similar situation with component input.

Discs recorded in + or - format can possibly be played on the opposite format player, but it depends on the player. Most newer model players are getting better with compatibility.

[Synergy]

Regading the component input as higher quality, you could read the following link to make your own judgement:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402071

and Philips recorders have seldom been considered as high quality especially in its earlier stage.

If you don't mind paying up to $1,000, then wait for the Sony RDR-HX900 in November for the best picture quality and compatibility:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405174

[DCA_Guy]

Thank you piano632 and Synergy, for the recommendations.

I appreciate the responses. I'll look into the models you mentioned, as well as the links.

Thanks again.

[spiderman2k1]

Sony burners sick alot of people are haing problem's. Panasonic is good and JVC only worth buying.

[fredpb]

I personally would not buy a Philips DVD or CD recorder. Quality is no longer there. And they are very picky.

I have had best luck with Pioneer CD and DVD recorders (stand alone). But I do use a Sony DRU500a in my computer for DVD. It handles anything.

[FulciLives]

Panasonic was THE king of stand alone DVD recorders. They have been making such devices longer than anyone else (at least for the consumer market) and have got it down pretty much perfect.

However ...

Panasonic uses their own chipset to do the MPEG encoding.

So what you ask?

Well there is a new chipset by LSI that is being used by a variety of other companies for their stand alone DVD recorders and it seems that this LSI chipset kicks ass compared to Panasonic's chipset.

Many people have noticed the superior quality of the LSI chipset including LordSmurf ... a respected member of this forum community.

So far it seems that the best brand out there using the LSI chipset is JVC. Currently JVC has two models available.

The DR-MV1SL is a DVD recorder that also includes a built-in 4 Head Hi-Fi Stereo VHS VCR. This VHS VCR can be used to record just like any VHS VCR but you can also play back a tape and record to a DVD ... as long as the VHS tape has no copy protection. You might even be able to go from DVD to VHS but I'm not sure and even if you can do that it would only work if the DVD has no copy protection ... so you can pretty much count that out since most DVD's do have copy protection.

The other model is the JVC DR-M10SL which is a bit cheaper because although almost identical it does NOT have the built-in VHS VCR.

Users including LordSmurf (who tried both models and reported his findings) have said that the built-in VHS VCR is not the greatest and doesn't work as well as hoped for playing back tapes to record to a DVD. In short you would be better off with the JVC model that does NOT have the VHS VCR built-in and instead by a nice high quality VHS VCR and just plug it in to the DVD recorder (the model that doesn't have the built-in VHS VCR).

Both of the JVC models do DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM

They do not as of yet have a model with a built-in HDD but I understand that such a model will be out very soon.

In short if I were to buy a DVD recorder today it would be the JVC DR-M10SL (the model without the built-in VHS VCR).

Although if you can wait a bit the model with the HDD would be worth the wait. It's nice to have since you can record A LOT of content to the HDD before you have to burn it to a DVD. Comes in handy if you record a lot of stuff in one day or you go on vacation etc.

Remember you can't really record more than about 4 hours per DVD disc before the quality starts to degrade noticeably. Thus models with a built-in HDD help you to "get around" the 4 hour recording limit. Comes in handy when you aren't hope to take one disc out and put another disc in.

Plus in comes in handy to record programs you intend to watch once and delete. You can record to the HDD ... play it back to your TV from the HDD ... then delete if you don't want to save it to a DVD disc.

The JVC does not have component inputs ... but that really is not a big deal. S-Video input is all you really need and it also has composite inputs. Like any decent DVD player the JVC does have component outputs as well as S-Video and composite outputs. Like a VHS VCR it also has an RF input for cable etc.

In short ... go with JVC!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DCA_Guy]

Thank you spiderman2k1, fredpb, and FuliLives. And, thanks again to piano632 and Synergy. All of your replies are appreciated.

I've read all of your messages, and visited and read your links, as well as the vendor web pages for all the models you've recommended.

I think I understand that Component Video input is not really a requirement for high quality. And, that Philips DVD recorders are not the way to go.

In the context of my objectives (Quality & Compatibility) I've heard your recommendations for the following tabletop DVD recorders:

1 - Panasonic DMR-E100
2 - Sony RDR-HX900
3 - JVC DR-M10SL

Here are my responses:

1 - Panasonic DMR-E100 --> I actually bought this box, and ended up returning it. Though it was a nice box, it does not support recording to DVD +R/RW. Also, every time I turned on the power, it would go hunting for a cable signal (I have satellite). I contacted Panasonic and they said that it was not designed for satellite, and that the "auto-sense feature" could NOT be disabled. So, I returned it.

2 - Sony RDR-HX900 --> After reading through all the info on this box, I've concluded that it sounds like a nice DVD recorder with great features. However, it has some proprietary (non-compatibility) issues, and it will not be available until October or November. I'd like something sooner.

3 - JVC DR-M10SL --> I could not find this exact model on JVC's website. Though I did find the JVC DR-M10S, and it sounded like what FulciLives was talking about. This also sounds like a nice box. I'm intrigued by the chipset that FulciLives endorsed. What other brands use that chipset? It also provides for DVD-RAM, along with its -R/RW. Though it lacks recording compatibility with +R/RW.

I don't need a HDD, as I already own a Dishnetwork DVR-921. This handles all my HD & SD recording to hard disk. I merely want to be able to re-record my shows from the DVR HDD to a high quality DVD that is fully compatible with most DVD players. And, maybe produce titles (not a high priority).

The boxes I've seen that currently provide for DVD recording of +R/RW and -R/RW are:

- Sony RDR-GX7
- LiteOn LVW-5005

However, I don't have a feel for what kind of quality they produce. I would guess that the Sony box has decent quality. However, I'm concerned about its tested compatibility. I'm also curious about the LiteOn products. As I know very little about them.

Does anyone have an opinion about these units? Or, can anyone provide any further recomendations for best balance of Quality and Compatibility?

Once again, I thank you all for your inteaction and views on this topic. This is very educational and helpful.

Dana

[Capmaster]

One of the things you don't mention in your criteria is the presence of a built-in TBC (Timebase corrector). A definite plus if you ever plan to transfer from VHS, or even a weak satellite signal.

Another thing you don't mention as even a consideration is the ability of the recorder to adjust the bitrate to fit the recording length, instead of picking a fixed time for the recording.

Both of these factors were what pointed me towards Panasonic. I had gone into my research almost decided ahead of time that I would buy a Sony. I'm a Sony fan (Sony 53" TV, Sony sat. receiver, sony stereo, sony DVD player, etc., etc.), but when I compared features I felt that the Sony GX-7 was criminally overpriced considering it didn't even have a HD. I looked at Pioneer, Toshiba, JVC, .all the brands and the only brand that fit my needs was Panasonic. I haven't regretted that choice yet

[FulciLives]

Personally I don't really understand your desire for the DVD+R/RW format ... I think pushing to get a stand alone that supports this format is a mistake.

I do believe that the LiteOn LVW-5005 uses the LSI chipset ... at least the previous model (the LVW-5001) did and the LVW-5005 is the newer replacement model.

Currently CRUTCHFIELD has the JVC that is JUST a DVD recorder (the model without the built-in VHS VCR). I think at this point you would be crazy to get the Lite-On model VS the JVC model.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DCA_Guy]

One of the things you don't mention in your criteria is the presence of a built-in TBC (Timebase corrector). A definite plus if you ever plan to transfer from VHS, or even a weak satellite signal.

Another thing you don't mention as even a consideration is the ability of the recorder to adjust the bitrate to fit the recording length, instead of picking a fixed time for the recording.

Thx for your recommendations Capmaster. Though I see the "adjustable bitrate" as advantageous, I have such a bad taste in my mouth from the Panasonic DMR-E100 purchase, that I'm enclined to go with a different brand.

However, I'm very interested in the TBC component you mentioned. As, I do have many VHS tapes to transfer to DVD. Where do I get a TBC? What brand, cost etc.? I know nothing about TBC's.

Personally I don't really understand your desire for the DVD+R/RW format ... I think pushing to get a stand alone that supports this format is a mistake.

Thank you FulciLive. I just want to ensure that I have the ability to record to +R/RW for friends / family that have those type of DVD players.

Currently CRUTCHFIELD has the JVC that is JUST a DVD recorder (the model without the built-in VHS VCR). I think at this point you would be crazy to get the Lite-On model VS the JVC model.

Yes! They do have the JVC DR-M10SL
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-8EA7gfryH0f/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=257DRM10SL&search=JVC+DR%2DM10SL for $399. That looks pretty good.

It looks like the marriage of the JVC DR-M10SL with the TBC might be the way to go.

Thank you.

Dana

[FulciLives]

I should point out that DVD-R is more compatable than DVD+R in standard stand alone DVD players.

So again why the need for DVD+R anything?

As for a TBC I think the JVC has one ... I know LordSmurf has called his the next best thing to sex when describing the picture quality ... but I'm not sure on the TBC thing (i.e., if it has one built-in or not).

The "best" external TBC (that isn't an arm and a leg) is the still rather expensive DataVideo TBC-1000 which goes for around $300

The only other real alternative is the slightly cheaper AVT-8710 (around $200) but based on user comments the DataVideo TBC-1000 is the better model.

Please note that all stand alone DVD recorders will not copy any source (VHS or DVD etc.) that has copy protection. Using a TBC such as the DataVideo TBC-1000 not only does all the great stuff a TBC is known for (such as re-syncing the video for a more stable image) but also removes all forms of copy protection.

This only applies to stand alone TBC devices though as the stand alone DVD recorders with a built-in TBC are still designed to not remove copy protection.

You can find the DataVideo TBC-1000 on the VIDEO GUYS website.

The AVT-8710 is at the AV TOOL BOX website but they increased the price not too long ago from $179 to $250 which is much too high. I do recall that there is another site that has it still for $200 but I forget the website now!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Synergy]

... but I'm not sure on the TBC thing (i.e., if it has one built-in or not).

The JVC DR-M10 apparently has a built-in TBC according to the JVC Japanese website:

http://www.victor.co.jp/dvd/dr-m10/visual.html

The standard 3D Y/C separation, digital TBC, and frame synchronizer are all included in the JVC model. eCOST.com is currently selling the JVC model for $300, much cheaper than Crutchfield:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/shop/detail.asp?dpno=400096

[FulciLives]

WOW that is a great price at $299.99 !!!

I have a broke ass friend that owes me $550.00 ... sure wish he paid it all that in one lump sum so I could order this puppy hehehe

Unfortunately I saw him a few days ago and got ZERO as he is broke (but then again so am I now which is why I need that money now).

Oh well ...

BTW I would love to know if the TBC kicks in on pass-thru ... been using an old Panasonic DMR-20 stand alone DVD recorder and the built-in TBC does kick in on pass-thru which is nice when you want to capture something to the computer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I've owned a lot of DVD recorders ... I think the count comes in at 17 of them right now.

The JVC DRM10SL is my #1 pick, my workhorse on my desk of high end equipment.

Let me tell you a few things about thes recorders:

- Panasonic - color loss, not the best at 2-hour (though still decent), really bad at 4-hour ... why? macroblocks, especially amoeba-like ones

- Philips - pain to use, quality degrades at the 4 hour level

- Sony RDR-GX7 - RUN AWAY LIKE A SCREAMING GIRL! the drive in this thing sucks ... the controls on the unit suck .. and it will often use a +RW/-RW like it were write-once (no manual erase on the unit)

- LiteOn LVW-5005 - Don't do it now that JVC is here. I have the 5001, which is essentially the same as the 5005 (5005 has a fan added, fw on drive is 411 on 401 not the 401 on 401, nothing else different). It has random errors handling interlace (TBC or SIMA is required). S-video is not a good input connector on it. Much of this is firmware related, they're working on it (a lot of us here are members of the LiteOn forums too). This is a great machine, but it has these quirks that the JVC does not have. I keot mine only because I had 100 DVD+RW discs leftover from my Apex's I sold off (another unit with an issue ... exploding PSUs). These use CVBR (not CBR or VBR) and thus 4-hour mode is not great. The 3-hour mode via a hack is perfect.

Apex and JVC have the highest quality around. One of my friend's APEX's just blew up on him, and he's one of those electrical genius types, so he's working on making a PSU from scratch on it.

The JVC -RW isn't all that bad. True, DVD+RW is superior because it can be played right away, but if you use it as an editing source, you'll not care. Or if you want to edit on the disc, DVD+RW editing sucks, often harming IFO files. Better off with DVD-RW in Half D1 (DVD-Video) or DVD-RAM for Full D1 720x480 (DVD-VR).

If the JVC has a TBC, it's like the Panasonic and others (meaning it may as well not even be there, they do nothing). What DOES matter on the JVC is the MPEG pre-processors (in addition to the LSI encoder pre-processing ... though that could be the same, just JVC marketing taking credit for it) and then the DNR (which again, could be a JVC additive or just them marketing LSI aspects).. This said because the APEX and JVC are IDENTICAL in video quality (superb). The JVC also seems to remove hiss from audio -- VERY IMPORTANT TO ME!

DVD players should be able to play DVD+R and DVD-R easier than DVD+RW. The JVC can use DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM (as well as most other recorders). Don't skip on a DVD-R/-RW unit because of DVD+RW only. My advice here.

There are old posts here with myself and cchang discussing chipsets found in various units. The Pioneer info there is outdated some though, as they're now using another encoder (Synergy looked that up)... although the unit still does not impress me (and may use CBR not VBR).

My goals are always BETTER THAN SOURCE encodes. The JVC and APEX have done that for me. The LiteON to lesser extent. The Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba barely maintained it. Panasonic, Cyberhome (all Cirrus units actually), etc., never even maintained it.

Middle of this month, I plan to have full reviews on lots of thse units on my site ... just takes time for that. I already spent a whole week giving it the updates from the 3rd/4th (which was a month of research, slow work)

[Capmaster]

The Datavideo TBC-1000 is not cheap, but with the couple of thousand VHS tapes I've already capped, its cost isn't much considering many of those captures would have been garbage without it. I'm glad I bought it. Here's my VHS capping setup:

[DCA_Guy]

WOW! I'm honored to have such an elite group of people participating in this topic--
THANK YOU:
- lordsmurf
- FulciLives
- Capmaster
- Synergy

Thank you all for your outstanding interaction here. I'm learning a lot!!

BOTTOM-LINE
It sounds like I need to order the following two components for the best Quality & Compatibility:
- JVC DRM10SL
- Datavideo TBC-1000

I have a few questions:

A - HARMONY
I currently have a Dishnetwork DVR 921 receiving my satellite signal in high-def. And I have a Sony hi-fi VCR. Will the these two new components (above) work harmoniously with my existing equipment?

B - CONNECTIONS
I assume that I place the Datavideo TBC-1000 between my VCR output and the JVC DRM10SL input. Is that correct?

C - TITLING
Will the DRM10SL do titling on my DVD-R & DVD-RAM

D - COMPATIBILITY
When I write DVD-R/RW on the DRM10SL, will those DVD's be able to play on most DVD players?

E - EDITING
Can I use the DVD's yielded by the DRM10SL on my PC with Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 video editor?

I appreciate any responses you can offer.

Thank you.

Dana

[FulciLives]

A - HARMONY
I currently have a Dishnetwork DVR 921 receiving my satellite signal in high-def. And I have a Sony hi-fi VCR. Will the these two new components (above) work harmoniously with my existing equipment?

Yes.

B - CONNECTIONS
I assume that I place the Datavideo TBC-1000 between my VCR output and the JVC DRM10SL input. Is that correct?

The DataVideo TBC-1000 has composite and S-Video inputs/outputs. You connect the OUTPUTS of the TBC-1000 to the INPUT on the DVD recorder. Then the signal you want to record plugs into the INPUTS of the TBC-1000 that way the signal goes through the TBC-1000 then into the DVD recorder. So you can plug in the VCR or any other video such as your PVR.

C - TITLING
Will the DRM10SL do titling on my DVD-R & DVD-RAM

Can't say since I don't actually have one. Most stand alone DVD recorders only do fairly simple menu type stuff.

D - COMPATIBILITY
When I write DVD-R/RW on the DRM10SL, will those DVD's be able to play on most DVD players?

Again should ask LordSmurf but any DVD-R you make should be fairly compatable. Note that oftentimes DVD-RW is not as compatable as DVD-R and very few DVD players (other than some Panasonic models) can play back DVD-RAM.

E - EDITING
Can I use the DVD's yielded by the DRM10SL on my PC with Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 video editor?

MPEG-2 video can be a bit tricky to edit. Best program for that is probably Womble MPEG-VCR

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DCA_Guy]

FulciLives,

Thanks for the succinct & quick responses. I really appreciate your help.

I hope that lordsmurf (or someone who owns a JVC DRM10SL) might respond to "C" and "D":

C - TITLING
Will the DRM10SL do titling on my DVD-R & DVD-RAM


D - COMPATIBILITY
When I write DVD-R/RW on the DRM10SL, will those DVD's be able to play on most DVD players?

Anyone else out there own a JVC DRM10SL?

Dana

[Jester700]

I've owned a lot of DVD recorders ... I think the count comes in at 17 of them right now.

If the JVC has a TBC, it's like the Panasonic and others (meaning it may as well not even be there, they do nothing). What DOES matter on the JVC is the MPEG pre-processors (in addition to the LSI encoder pre-processing ... though that could be the same, just JVC marketing taking credit for it) and then the DNR (which again, could be a JVC additive or just them marketing LSI aspects).. This said because the APEX and JVC are IDENTICAL in video quality (superb). The JVC also seems to remove hiss from audio -- VERY IMPORTANT TO ME!

My goals are always BETTER THAN SOURCE encodes. The JVC and APEX have done that for me. The LiteON to lesser extent. The Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba barely maintained it. Panasonic, Cyberhome (all Cirrus units actually), etc., never even maintained it.

Thanks for your work on this; very interesting. One thing that bothers me, though... In any direct transfer an indistinguishable copy is one of my goals. The tools to remove noise, sharpen video, or remove hiss are cool, and may well be used 90% of the time. But are these defeatable? Because there is NO audio tool that removes hiss totally transparently, and a source may come along where the hiss is preferable to the anomalies caused by removing it. Same with video improvements.

And has anyone put that LSI chip into a PCI encoder card yet?

[lordsmurf]

C: Yes, you can edit the titles on the discs, menus look nice, attractive background, great highlights, clean fonts with plenty of typing space, I posted on image in one of the JVC review threads in the DVD RECORDER forum.

D: Yes, they appear to be very compatible, even with a player that normally rejects my discs not authored in ReelDVD (other software, it chokes).

LSI encoder chips are on a few PCI PVR cards, but for Windows MCE only:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224575

[DCA_Guy]

Lordsmurf,

Thank you for your reply. I'm ordering both the DRM10SL and the Datavideo TBC-1000! That sounds great!

In response to Jester700, you said:

LSI encoder chips are on a few PCI PVR cards, but for Windows MCE only:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224575

I looked at the reference, and the various boards. Do you have one that you recommend?

Also, do you use Womble MPEG-VCR software to do your PC-based video editing?

Thanks again,

Dana

[gshelley61]

Womble MPEG-VCR and MPEG Video Wizard are both excellent frame-accurate MPEG video editors and do not re-encode (unless transitions or filters in Video Wizard are used). Both are lightning fast, too. Cuttermaran and MPEG2Schnitt (freeware) can do simple I frame cutting and joining without re-encoding, as well.

[Neuron]

.... Anyone else out there own a JVC DRM10SL? ...

Yes, and I'm very impressed by its quality. I also owned Panasonic DMR- E60 and I'm totally agree with lordsmurf. Panny's 4 hours mode video quality is much inferior comparably to JVC. JVC also has much better block noise inhibit capability than Panny.

[DCA_Guy]

Alright! I did it!

Based on the extensive input on this topic, and the assistance of many... I ordered my components, at the best prices & reputable dealers that I could find:

- JVC DRM10SL for $359.10 at GoodGuys
http://www.goodguys.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=168881&catky=
GoodGuys has a 10% discount off the posted price ($399) for online orders!

- Datavideo TBC-1000 for $279.95 at EVS - Express Video Supply
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TBC1000

Thank you all for your assistance with this decision. I feel good about it. And, I can't wait to receive my new equipment!

Dana