My First Post- Help To Get Started Capturing

[Joseph Vigo]

Thanks for being here, this site is a Godsend.

I am transfering some of my analog/VHS videos to DVD, using S-Video via my All-In-Wonder ATI 128 Rage Pro capture card.

There are a few issues I need clarifying.

1) I have Ulead DVD Workshop, which can capture directly to MPEG-2.
Should I capture using this, or the ATI Multimedia Centre? I tried capturing to ULEAD with the non-compression setting and it produced a 30GB file! I thought perhaps I could do this and compress the file afterwards, but wasn`t sure which program to use to do this, or which process gives better results. I have TMPEnc and have heard it is a great program, but i did not feel confident to configure it properly as there are so many settings. Anyway, would TMPEnc be able to compress a 30GB Ulead Direct SHow Captured anaolg video into a file that could be burnt onto DVD?

2) S-VIDEO produces very poor colour quality. in fact, it is more like a general black and white with unnatural looking over-contrasted vivid reds and blues. Composite gives better colour results. Does this mean I should capture using composite? It`s just I heard S-Video was meant to be best.

3) The final video is very snowy and quite jerky. I have Adobe Premiere 6 which I wanted to use to maybe apply some filters etc, but these files will not open in Premiere. Is there another way to do it?

Sorry if I sound like novice. Appreciate your help.


Joe.

[Joseph Vigo]

by the way, I am in England so am capturing to Pal-I but don`t know how to find out if this is the right setting. (eg: which Pal to use...Pal-B etc etc)

[FulciLives]

Thanks for being here, this site is a Godsend.

I am transfering some of my analog/VHS videos to DVD, using S-Video via my All-In-Wonder ATI 128 Rage Pro capture card.

There are a few issues I need clarifying.

1) I have Ulead DVD Workshop, which can capture directly to MPEG-2.
Should I capture using this, or the ATI Multimedia Centre? I tried capturing to ULEAD with the non-compression setting and it produced a 30GB file! I thought perhaps I could do this and compress the file afterwards, but wasn`t sure which program to use to do this, or which process gives better results. I have TMPEnc and have heard it is a great program, but i did not feel confident to configure it properly as there are so many settings. Anyway, would TMPEnc be able to compress a 30GB Ulead Direct SHow Captured anaolg video into a file that could be burnt onto DVD?

I would capture to an AVI file. This can be done with the ATI software as far as I know. If you have the space to use ULEAD then you can do that too. It sounds like ULEAD is capturing UNCOMPRESSED video which does take up massive amounts of HDD space. Most people capture to AVI using one of two codecs ... HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG. These use compression so they take up less space. HuffyUV is considered lossless compression. PICVideo at the 19 quality setting is very good and you really can't see the loss from compression but it is not considered 100% lossless. You should probably take a look at the following website:

http://www.lordsmurf.com/

That website is dedicated more-or-less to capturing with ATI cards.

TMPGEnc is a great MPEG-2 encoder. I will list a link at the bottom of this post to a guide on using it. It's really not all that tough and produces great results ... usually almost always better than direct-to-mpeg capture.

2) S-VIDEO produces very poor colour quality. in fact, it is more like a general black and white with unnatural looking over-contrasted vivid reds and blues. Composite gives better colour results. Does this mean I should capture using composite? It`s just I heard S-Video was meant to be best.

Not sure why S-Video is not giving you good quality but if composite works then so be it. Nothing wrong with capturing using composite. S-Video is not always better and often times you can't tell the difference. Still though it's odd that you are getting the results you are from it. My guess is a bad S-Video cable or something not set up just right in your capture software.

3) The final video is very snowy and quite jerky. I have Adobe Premiere 6 which I wanted to use to maybe apply some filters etc, but these files will not open in Premiere. Is there another way to do it?

Again if you capture in AVI format you can use VirtualDub or the combination of VirtualDubMod and AviSynth to apply filters that can clean up the video a bit. I like to use the Convolution3D filter which works through AviSynth.

Some website to check out:

1.) VirtualDub Homepage
2.) AviSynth Homepage
3.) Guide on using TMPGEnc

And of course don't forget the LORDSMURF website.

Good Luck!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Joseph Vigo]

thank you very much for your detailed reply, which Ive printed off, as with the info links you gave. The best thing I can do is go home, digest all this new info, and experiment, then get back and let you know how I went on.
I don`t understand either why the S-VIdeo is not as good. Do you think having large Stereo speakers near the Video recorder may affect the signal with magnetic interference etc? Could this be a factor perhaps?

I will try the VDub filter you suggest, though to be honest, I have more experience with Premiere and would probably feel more at home with that. But I wouldn `t know what filters to use. I would imagine also that applying filters will add considerably to file size?

Ok, I will post again soon. Thanks again John.

[FulciLives]

thank you very much for your detailed reply, which Ive printed off, as with the info links you gave. The best thing I can do is go home, digest all this new info, and experiment, then get back and let you know how I went on.
I don`t understand either why the S-VIdeo is not as good. Do you think having large Stereo speakers near the Video recorder may affect the signal with magnetic interference etc? Could this be a factor perhaps?

I will try the VDub filter you suggest, though to be honest, I have more experience with Premiere and would probably feel more at home with that. But I wouldn `t know what filters to use. I would imagine also that applying filters will add considerably to file size?

Ok, I will post again soon. Thanks again John.

Can't answer the S-Video problem. If you really want to use S-Video then I would pick up a new S-Video cable perhaps to see if that does any better unless your current S-Video work on the TV but just not the computer. In that case it might be the PAL setting you are using or some such settings on your capture software.

As for filters ... there are many filters that work with VirtualDub and AviSynth. TMPGEnc also has a filter built-in. Using filters will not add to the file size because you apply the filters when you do your encoding so it really has nothing to do with file size. What they do do (in a negative sense) is make the encoding take LONGER. Using AviSynth for filtering seems to be the fastest method and Convolution3D is a favorite of mine and others because of how well it works and it is a plus that it is an AviSynth filter. VirtualDub filtering is slower than AviSynth I think because of the frameserving method from VirtualDub to TMPGEnc (or whatever encoder you are using). The filter built-in to TMPGEnc is good and some people think the best of all (though arguable) but probably the slowest of all beyond question!

Of course encoding speed is most determined by CPU speed. So even with filters your encodings might not be too slow if you have a fast CPU

You might want to ask about that PAL setting. I live in the USA and have only captured PAL a few times from some VHS sources. They were from the UK but I forget now what PAL setting I used.

Maybe start a new thread entitled "What PAL capture settings for UK sources" and you should get some answers.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[hudster]

I believe that the UK Pal setting is PAL I.

I live in scotland and this is the one I use.

[Joseph Vigo]

Thanks for the replies.

I have been very disappointed by the results so far. I captured 10 minutes of Uncompressed (UYV2) VHS video film to ULEAD DVD WORKSHOP. WHile capturing, the video on the screen is fine, not much different from the original.
This 10 minutes of uncompressed analog video created a 2GB file (dws file) which I opened in TMGEnc applying template settings given at http://dvd-hq.info/compression.html ("configuring TMPGEnc for high-quality DVD compliant MPEG-2"). I applied "noise reduction", and an anti-ghosting filter. TEMPGEnc took 3.5 hours to analyze/process this 10 minute file , and the results were atrociously bad. It was stuttered, images ghosted when any movement took place. It was nothing like the quality of the original, in fact it was so bad it had NO quality.

It was disappointing waiting three hours for such bad results. If they had anywhere close to acceptable, I would of course have captured the whole film and let TMPGEnc process for 36 hours if thats` what it needed.

But now I`m disollusioned, disappointed, and don`t much feel like persisting with analog capture. Ah well. Thanks anyway guys.

[tigerman8u]

I use ATI"s MMC. For vhs I use 1/2 D1 352x480/576. This is a compliant dvd resolution. For bitrate I use 3000k average and 4000k maximun. I capture to mpeg2 and IMO the capture is as good as the original.

[FulciLives]

Thanks for the replies.

I have been very disappointed by the results so far. I captured 10 minutes of Uncompressed (UYV2) VHS video film to ULEAD DVD WORKSHOP. WHile capturing, the video on the screen is fine, not much different from the original.
This 10 minutes of uncompressed analog video created a 2GB file (dws file) which I opened in TMGEnc applying template settings given at http://dvd-hq.info/compression.html ("configuring TMPGEnc for high-quality DVD compliant MPEG-2"). I applied "noise reduction", and an anti-ghosting filter. TEMPGEnc took 3.5 hours to analyze/process this 10 minute file , and the results were atrociously bad. It was stuttered, images ghosted when any movement took place. It was nothing like the quality of the original, in fact it was so bad it had NO quality.

It was disappointing waiting three hours for such bad results. If they had anywhere close to acceptable, I would of course have captured the whole film and let TMPGEnc process for 36 hours if thats` what it needed.

But now I`m disollusioned, disappointed, and don`t much feel like persisting with analog capture. Ah well. Thanks anyway guys.

You can't give up that easily!

I guess is the GHOST FILTER in TMPGEnc is what threw things off ... really there should be no need to use that! Also it is possible that maybe you went too far with the "noise reduction" filter which can make things worse when not used properly.

Me thinks you need to try again and fiddle around with different settings.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Joseph Vigo]

Thanks for the encouragement I will try again

I use ATI"s MMC. For vhs I use 1/2 D1 352x480/576. This is a compliant dvd resolution. For bitrate I use 3000k average and 4000k maximun. I capture to mpeg2 and IMO the capture is as good as the original."

what do you mean by 1/2 D1 ?

Thanks.


Oh by the way, I can`t get sound from TV with my MMC!

[tigerman8u]

[/quote]

what do you mean by 1/2 D1 ?

Thanks.


Oh by the way, I can`t get sound from TV with my MMC![/quote]
1/2 D1 is 1/2 the resolution of dull dvd (D1). You can't improve the quality of a video by going to a higher resolution. If your original video is 352x240 it won't get better by going to 720x 480/576. That's why I use 1/2 D1 and the file is smaller.

[Joseph Vigo]

thanks tigerman.

[Joseph Vigo]

last night I had some luck with the VHS capture, but strange things are happening.

I tried to do as you suggested tigerman and capture using only the ATI MMC, but this happened:

I opened TV, set the connector to "composite" (can`t use S-Vid, it only captures in b&w)...then started recording for 10 minutes. The file was saved as an ATI file on my D: drive (separate HDD), but when i tried to open it it was TOTALLY blurry, you couldn`t make out anything, it was just a screen full of fuzzy distortion, no images at all. I tried updating to the latest Rage 128 drivers, tried and tried again but nothing worked. ATI will not open the files it is recording.

SO...only option left, I captured using ULEAD DVD WORKSHOP.

This time MPEG settings were MPEG-2-720-576-Pal default.

It seemed to capture ok, but the real test is how it will look when files are coverted and burnt onto disc. To do that, I selected "Make Disc" and set a custom Constant Data Rate of 5500 KBPS, with Audio at 384 Kbps.
and 720x576.

After what youve said about resolution sizes, i realise ive done that wrong now, so will try again later using 320 240.

I left Workshop converting the files (it takes about three hours), so will get back here tommorrow to say how it went.

Id appreciate any feedback about the ATI Capture problem though...as this wasn`t happening before I re-installed XP two days ago.

Thanks for any help.


Joe.

[FulciLives]

I would just like to point out that if you are capturing in MPEG-2 DVD spec format you don't want to re-encode again.

So either "do it right" the first time or capture to an AVI file then convert to MPEG-2 DVD spec.

You loose too much quality when you capture in MPEG-2 and then re-encode that capture to MPEG-2 again. You are compressing it (a lot) twice.

If uncompressed AVI is too big for you then try the HuffyUV codec or even the PICVideo MJPEG codec (on the 19 quality setting). HuffUV will be smaller by around half compared to uncompressed but will gives you virtually the same quality. PICVideo MJPEG is considered "lossy" compression but on the 19 setting (or the top 20 setting) it is barely "degrading" the image due to compression and nothing like an MPEG-2 capture which uses SO much compression that you don't want to have to convert it again.

One other note ...

Half D1 is a good choice for VHS captures but it is 352x480 NTSC or 352x576 PAL

You can put 352x240 NTSC or 352x288 PAL on a DVD using MPEG-2 but those resolutions are really too low even for VHS sources.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Joseph Vigo]

Thanks John

I would just like to point out that if you are capturing in MPEG-2 DVD spec format you don't want to re-encode again.

So either "do it right" the first time or capture to an AVI file then convert to MPEG-2 DVD spec.

You loose too much quality when you capture in MPEG-2 and then re-encode that capture to MPEG-2 again. You are compressing it (a lot) twice.

If uncompressed AVI is too big for you then try the HuffyUV codec or even the PICVideo MJPEG codec (on the 19 quality setting). HuffUV will be smaller by around half compared to uncompressed but will gives you virtually the same quality. PICVideo MJPEG is considered "lossy" compression but on the 19 setting (or the top 20 setting) it is barely "degrading" the image due to compression and nothing like an MPEG-2 capture which uses SO much compression that you don't want to have to convert it again.

One other note ...

Half D1 is a good choice for VHS captures but it is 352x480 NTSC or 352x576 PAL

You can put 352x240 NTSC or 352x288 PAL on a DVD using MPEG-2 but those resolutions are really too low even for VHS sources.

Thanks John,

But here is where I am CONFUSED.

DO you use DVD Worshop? There are two Capture plug-ins that can be selected. One is the normal/standard "Direct SHow Plug in", which uses about 30GB to capture an average VHS movie. The other is the "Ulead DSW MPEG capture plugin" which captures at MPEG-2, and on average makes a 5GB - ish file for a movie.

I chose the latter yesterday. When the film has finished capturing (Still in the DVD workshop Capture workspace) you then have to decide what you want to do with it. The interface lets you choose from the menu at the top to burn the captured file to disc. I didn`t want to burn to disc at this stage, so chose the option to create an image file from the captured movie.

Now, this is where the cofusion is. WHen I click "start", it shows a bright blue progress bar at the bottom and says it is "converting" the files.

this process takes about 3 hours to do the whole film. But....

as you say, WHY is it converting, WHAT is it converting to if DVD Workshop already captured the VHS as MPEG-2????

I think, (someone PLEASE correct me)....that DVD workshop is`nt actually converting the files to MPEG-2, but to VOB files (in the VIDEO_TS folder) which can then be recognised by the DVD burning software no??

Is this wrong? Remember, when I captured the VHS movie into DVD workshop, it was 5GB, too big to burn directly onto DVD. I tried opening the MPEG-2 file in DVD SHRINK to shrink it slightly, but it wouldn`t recognise the file, wouldn`t open it.

SO, the only other alternative I could think of was to use the option under "Make Disc" in DVD workshop that lets you select a Custom setting to compress it slightly so it will fit onto a DVD. If you let DVD Workshop do this automatically for you, it shrinks it too much. SO i chose a Constant Data Rate of 5500 Kbps, an audio rate of 384 Kbps. and resolution of 720x 576. (wrong, i know now thanks to you guys).

The results of all this were a set of VTS files that I then burnt onto DVD using Pinnacle Instant CD/DVD. Yesterday, I purchased Nero 6.3.0.3, so will be using that from now on I think.

I played the DVD on my standalone and it was much better than all my other attempts, but still not as good as the original VHS. There was the occasional "jerky" moment, where movement was speeded up.

Any feedback always appreciated,

Joe.

[tigerman8u]

@ Joseph Vigo. If you haven't allready done so read the guides here www.lordsmurf.com. Alot of good info on understanding your input source, settings for MMC, etc. I still think something is not quite correct with your setup, ie drivers, settings, or whatever. ATI software can be a nightmare to setup but once done correctly you can and will get excellent results. Keep us posted on your results. Fill free to PM me if I can be of futher assistance or if you want to know what settings etc. I use. Good luck and welcome to the challenging , wonderfull, pain in the butt, yet very rewarding word of home video.

[FulciLives]

Hi Joe

Well I don't know what to tell you other than to maybe "bite" the bullet and do the way that takes up 30ishGB of space since it is probably capturing to an uncompressed (or barely compressed) AVI file.

After all this is an intermediate step and once you convert to MPEG-2 DVD spec it will be the proper size for a DVD.

This might require you to buy a larger HDD (I don't know if you have enough space to capture like that all the time) but it sounds like the best solution given your system specs/methods.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Joseph Vigo]

@ Joseph Vigo. If you haven't allready done so read the guides here www.lordsmurf.com. Alot of good info on understanding your input source, settings for MMC, etc. I still think something is not quite correct with your setup, ie drivers, settings, or whatever. ATI software can be a nightmare to setup but once done correctly you can and will get excellent results. Keep us posted on your results. Fill free to PM me if I can be of futher assistance or if you want to know what settings etc. I use. Good luck and welcome to the challenging , wonderfull, pain in the butt, yet very rewarding word of home video.

Hi Joe

Well I don't know what to tell you other than to maybe "bite" the bullet and do the way that takes up 30ishGB of space since it is probably capturing to an uncompressed (or barely compressed) AVI file.

After all this is an intermediate step and once you convert to MPEG-2 DVD spec it will be the proper size for a DVD.

This might require you to buy a larger HDD (I don't know if you have enough space to capture like that all the time) but it sounds like the best solution given your system specs/methods.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman
_________________

thanks much for the replies. I did a complete re-install of my system yesterday after a strange message from "XLok, Xtream," popped up every time i tried to open an ATI Video File. I couldn`t delete this mysterious Program (it kept warning me about dll`s)....and I can only think that i corrupted my system by installing about a dozen freeware programs. Ive noticed that similar programs seem to compete or interfere with each other, so it`s probably best to stick to one or the other.

Anyway I did a search for this "XLok" thing but even searching hidden files it didn`t reveal itself so I re-installed XP this morning.

Now, there`s no ULEAD installed yet. I`m trying to see if I can configure ATI to do the job on it`s own like you tigerman.

This morning I tried to capture 10 mins of VHS and in the MM7 configure settings for digital VCR chose a Custom setting of 352x576.

The playback was very jerky. I have installed the latest 128 PRo drivers, the latest Via 4 in 1 pack (Hyperion) and Direct X 9 with the update the MMC Windows Patch.

Am i missing something here? It must be something in my setup like you say, but this is straight after a clean install. My pins seem well connec ted, I unplug the other unused cables, and have a powerful system. I`m also capturing to a second fast HDD which is recommended for video capture.


OK, I will go and trawl thru Lord SMurfs articles. I feel like a one armed blind man fishing for squid.

but there is always hope. and trial and error.

thanks for the offer to PM tigerman but i`m not sure what it is email?

thanks guys.


astalavista.

Joe 8)

[lordsmurf]

Bite the bullet and reformat. Like you said, probably did damge from too muc installs.

[Joseph Vigo]

Thank you LordSmurf.

I did reformat, and reinstall.

Tried to install MMC 8.0.0 but it seems it is not compatible with ATI-Rage 128 Pro card, unfortunately. I tried installing it, but it wouldn`t do it.

It seems something is very wrong deep down with my system, so deep down that even a complete low-level HDD format with the MAxtor diagnostic software (Powermax) has not resolved the problem.

It is this. I boot my PC and it constantly gives me this error :
"Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt:
WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CONFIG\SYSTEM".

i then run CHKDSK/ R as it says, which dutifully reports that it has "found and fixed errors", but alas the same error message keeps appearing.

This is driving me to complete despair. As soon as I begin to get the hang of your articles and get to grips with some concepts of video capture, I have to spend hours and days resolving these basic system problems.
As they are relatively new Hard Drives, and relatively new mobo, I have no idea what`s going on.

I know I`ll probably have to go elsewhere to sort this one out, but just thought i`d let you know, in case this error message is familiar to anyone, and because, well, a problem shared is a problem halved. yeh, right.