Quick moving scenes problems

[gioto]

Hi folks!
First of all excuse me for my bad English!

A strange problem occured when creating a DVD from my movies: quick moving scenes are "jumped" by my DVD reader!

I'll try to explain:
-I start from an AVI file captured with Ulead Capture
-I make a video using Ulead Video Editor
-I export it in AVI format
-I use TMPGEnc to create mpeg video format
-I use DVD Author to author my DVD
-Finally I use Nero to burn my DVD

When i go to see the movie, i realize that quick scene changes (ie 2-3 consecutive scenes that are less then half a second long) are literally jumped by my DVD reader, that goes directly to the next long scene!!!
I think this is incredible!

Please note that the DVD is perfect if you play on a PC, and that my DVD reader (a Scott one) never gave me particular problems, reading correctly everithing i put it in.

I suppose that may be sono syncronism problems or something like this ?

Please, give me some suggestions, 'cause I really can't imagine what to do !

Really manu thanks to everyone will help me!
Gioto

[gioto]

hellooooooooooooooo..............

I saw many view but no replies................

does someone have an idea ??????

Please HELP MEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!!!!!

[reboot]

Try re-encoding with 2 pass VBR, using a high average bitrate. This should maintain enough detail in the fast moving scenes to keep it from "jumping".
If you're encoding at CBR, it's probably not high enough bitrate to maintain the detail in fast moving scenes.

[dafreak]

hmm, what's funny is that he can see the fast motion scenes on his pc but not on his dvd player.

you could try to play the dvd on a different player and see if the "jumping" still occurs.

if it does, it might be the encode and you might want to try what reboot posted. You could also change the motion search setting to high quality (slow) or highest quality (slowest) to see if that might help.

[gioto]

hi reboot, hi dafreak, hi everybody!

a sad new: my HD crashed!!!

I have to repair it, hoping to recover my movie project!

I will come back as soon as possible

Anyway thanks for your interest. I'll try encoding in 2pass VBR but, as dafreak said, the movie is very good on my computer. Also, the motion search setting is to high quality now.

All i can do is try the DVD on another player. I'll let you know.

Bye. See you!

[SLK001]

The problem might be too high of a bitrate that exceeds the DVD spec. Your player can't handle it, so it jumps to the next GOP.

[reboot]

Nothing funny about fast motion playing on the computer. I have avi's and converted mpgs (SVCD) that play extremely well on the computer, yet suck on my standalone.
If I re-encode the original avi, using 2 pass VBR, min 200, max 2420, average 2000, I get a slightly smaller mpeg, yet with enough detail to play on the standalone without jumping/stuttering.

[gioto]

Hi everybody!
My computer is working now! Very hard to "revive", but now works fine!

Reboot: i've tried with 2pass VBR: i little bit better, but still jumping something and the image is stuttering too! Your setting are for SVCD, not DVD, right ???

SLK001: you opened my mind : you say that bitrate is too high? May be, 'cause i'm using 8000 in CBR.

So the problem should be the correct settings in TMPGenc: IS THERE ANYBODY THAT HAVE THE RIGHT TMPGenc SETTINGS FOR DVD-PAL CREATION ? I used some taken from a guide in this site (I have to find the document, i'll let you know better)

In the meantime I'll try to slower the bitrate, but should be very good to have someone that have experimented good settings in various situations.

I'll let you know!
See you. Thank to everybody!

[johns0]

The problem also sounds like a media problem,try using a different name brand of dvdr.

[reboot]

Yes, my settings were for SVCD again, sorry...I keep missing the DVD bit.
If you use 2 pass VBR, set the max at 8k, and adjust the average and minimum to suit your quality requirements. It's going to produce a larger file, but should maintain better quality. If you don't care as much about quality, but need a file that fits on the medium somehow, you can set the average and min much lower.
Try burning at a slightly slower speed too.

[gioto]

Hi folks, hi reboot

the mistery increase.... I've tried conversion (with TMPGenc) changing many parameters: slowing the bitrate up to 3000, using ALL the conversion types (2pass VBR, CQ, CBR etc.). The result is a LITTLE BETTER: now doesn't jump the images, but there is a great stuttering!!!
To better explain, the problem appear in a sequence of images, changing much quickly, about halp a second each. Every image appears much stuttering, not correctly freezed as the original AVI movie or as seen on PC.

So I think that 2passVBR is much better than CBR, but the problem is not the bitrate, as SLK001 said, because changing it nothing happens!

So now the problem is: how to eliminate stuttering ???

I hope that someone has a good idea....

Thanks. bye

[reboot]

Increase bitrate = increased quality.
Why did you choose 3000?
Try it again at about 7000. (or higher)

[gioto]

I've tried many new settings in TMPGenc, but the result doesn't change! I've lowered to 3000 for the SLK001 advice. But i've tried to 7000, 8000 etc.

I try to summarize the problem for a better explain: i've 3-4 sequences of a movie that changes much quickly, every half a second, codified in a Video DVD movie from AVI to MPEG2 with TMPGenc, that are badly reproduced by my DVD player, because there is much quivering!!! Please note that this defect is present only in these scenes that change quickly, while the others are perfect!
More stange is that the DVD, seen on a PC, is perfect!

Does anybody knows why ? More info are in the prior posts.

Thanks everybody, thanks reboot.

[reboot]

Try with a medium bitrate (5000 or so?), and set "Motion Search Precision" to it's highest setting.
The only other option I can see, is using some other encoder, but most of the good ones cost money.

[gioto]

Hi reboot,
i've your suggestions tried but with no result. Always the same !

Can you suggest me a better quality encoder, the best one, also if is expensive ?

More, can i send you few seconds of my movie so that you can see the defect ? But you must burn a DVD and see on a player....

Let me know.
Many Thanks

[reboot]

I use Canopus Procoder most of the time, however others have had luck with Mainconcept's encoder. CCE is good quality, but not for the weak of heart, as it's learning curve is steep. I still think TMPGEnc is your best option.
I would keep playing with it, burning to DVDRW for testing, and when you get a product you like, burn it to DVDR.
I still think that 2 pass VBR should give the best quality during fast motion, yet use a low enough bitrate during scenes with low motion to keep physical size down. Make sure the max bitrate is one your player can handle (as referenced by SLK001 above).
This is definitely going to take some time to encode though, but the finished product is better quality than CBR or CQ.

Random thoughts: what fps is the original avi? Are you converting it as needed for your player? What compression codec are you using?

[maek]

:idea: Another thought occurred to me that you may want to try. Try changing your "Video Arrange Method" to Bottom (if Top is selected) or Top (if Bottom is selected).

I've learned that this may sometimes impact high motion scenes. It depends on the way that your capture card processes the information and unfortunately not all capture manufacturers are kind enough to tell you which method they utilize.

[dwiesel]

I agree with MAEK...I've seen this first hand (stuttering is a very apt word for it). If you're using "Field A", try changing it to "Field B", and vice-versa.

This is my very FIRST message in this website...so hey everyone. I will take the opportunity to ask for help...what link or thread will help me in choosing the correct (I), (P), (B) frames for achieving the absolute best quality, and learning what they mean in mroe detail? Seems every site I go to has different suggestions...I've spent the last couple of weeks comparing different parameters, and I'm going nuts (so are my pets!).

Thanks all, sorry for wasting anyone's time.

[gioto]

Hi Folks,
first of all many thanks for your interest!

I've done many attempts, but with no result!

1. About reboot suggestions: the fps are 25 (PAL) and I think is right. I've red your post about this problem, but my AVI is from DV camera, so I don't think fps should be changed.

2. Maek: perhaps you mean the "Field Order" ? This is Bottom or Top. I've changed from bottom to top, and the defect has increased: the problem is present in all the scenes! Could this suggest something to you ?

3.One more attempt i've done is to enable "force picture type". And there was a suprice: pressing the auto button TMPGEnc was wrong to find the scene change just in the scene having problems. So i manually had correct the scene change, hoping in a good result, but nothing changed !

That's all! Tonight i'll try with Field A and B as dwiesel suggested. I'll let you know.

Bye.

[dwiesel]

Gioto...the changing from field B to A (or vice-versa) is the same thing I think you already did, which was change the field order; if it's wose, than you had it right the first time. Good luck.

[ronnylov]

Try VBV buffer=0 (automatic) instead of 224. I don't think it will help but maybe worth a try...

[colojim]

I usually capture to 720 x 576 avi, edit in Virtual dub then let Ulead Movie factory start converting to DVD. In the process of converting the program writes temporary working MPEG2 files which it does not delete. I rename these and have good quality MPEG2 files which I can do whatever I want with.
Sometimes I use TMPGENC to convert the avi to MPEG2 instead, then I get the problem you have plus blocky picture when there is rapid movement in the picture.
I don't think TMPGENC is as wonderful as everyone says it is, and it is probably the cause of your probems unless you experiment and use the highest bitrate possible (try it and see if the problem goes away).

[-Scope-]

I bumped onto this forum because I'm experiencing more or less the same problem. I'm editing my movies in Pinnacle Studio 8, export them as AVI-files to TMPGenc, and then burn them on DVD to play on my PAL TV (not my PC).

The problem is mainly with quick scene changes. When I go from scene A to scene B, without any special effect transitions, then there is no problem; but... when I use a transition, for example A dissolves in B, or scene A disappears to the left, while B enters from the right; and the transition is very quick (less than half a second; 12 frames), then the problem occurs. Although my DVD-standalone player doesn't actually skip the transition, it does 'seem' to stutter (although there is no time-lag!), the motion which went fluently in AVI, now seems jagged. (Almost if you'd put a stroboscope effect in).

Anyway, with the excellent guide about configuring TMPGEnc (http://dvd-hq.info/Compression.html) I'm tinkering with the settings in TMPGEnc. I think the problem is that TMPGEnc gets confused whenever there is movement in the scene itself, while the scene is changing into another scene. Motion search precision and bitrates doesn't seem to have any effect, and now I'm experimenting with various GOP-structure settings.

Hope you understand the problem, all extra information or advice is welcome!

[-Scope-]

Well, the GOP-setting changes didn't work either. Actually it is very hard to see any difference at all.

But, while TMPGEnc was converting, I thought I'd give Pinnacle a try too. I've got a lot of experience with converting AVI to SVCD, and there TMPGEnc was no match for Pinnacle.

But when I played the DVD pinnacle decoded, I was pretty amazed by the result! The transitions are very smooth now, just like on my computer screen! So it is possible, and therefore the problem must be somewhere inside TMPGEnc.

Overall quality from the Pinnacle decoding is only slightly less than TMPGEnc (seems to have some problems handling bright colors), but you have to know where to look at, and I doubt my (DVD-decoding-analphabetic) familymembers will notice the difference!

Conclusion therefore is that no conversion program is perfect for all situations, so I recommend Gioto to try a different decoder and see the results.

[colojim]

I agree with Scope.
THe only time I have seen smooth high speed movement in TMPGENC
is when I use the highest bitrate possible. A 2hour DVD is not high enough for good quality, yet using Ulead DVD movie factory to encode a 2 hour DVD is excellent.