How to edit/author an AVI to DVD format w/o Pinnacle Studio?

[Ronaldus]

After reading various threads here, I'm still having trouble grasping parts of the authoring process. This is what I want to do starting with an existing AVI file captured from a camcorder:

1. Edit out various sections down to the frame throughout the AVI.
2. Drop chapter marks at various frames with thumbnail pictures on a simple root chapter menu.
3. Convert the 16 bit LPCM audio to a compressed format such as Dolby Digital 2.0 to save space.
4. Author this into VOB files ready to be copied into the VIDEO_TS directory using a variable bit rate and filling up nearly the full DVD space (4464 MB).

It sounds simple, but so far I can't figure out what I need to do. The only tool I have now is Pinnacle Studio which came with my camcorder. With it I can capture AVIs and do #1 and #2 above, but I find 3 problems with Pinnacle Studio:
- It only gives me the choice of LPCM audio (often > 1 GB) or MPEG audio (often > 500 MB). Most professionally authored DVDs only require a couple hundred MB for high quality DD 2.0 audio... not a full GB!
- It uses a constant bit rate resulting in low quality video at times.
- The constant bit rate causes it to guess wrong and waste at least a couple hundred MB of space on each DVD.

What is the basic step-by-step process and which tools do I need to accomplish the above 4 steps? Does any single affordable (i.e. <= $100) tool do all of this or do I have to run it through several tools in a particular order?

TMPGEnc is often mentioned, but I thought all it did was convert AVI to MPEG2. Why do I need to go from AVI to MPEG2? Why can't something take my AVI files and make VOB files directly like Pinnacle Studio, but with VBR and better audio compression, video quality, and space usage?

Do I need an "authoring" program like TMPGEnc Author (not TMPGEnc) to make the edits, add chapter marks and a menu? Once I have generated that, what kind of output files does an authoring program create?

Pinnacle Studio gives the choice of outputting the project in AVI, MPEG2, DVD (VOB), and a few others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I pick AVI or MPEG2 the menu and chapter marks I added will be discarded because they are not stored in AVI or MPG files? I don't recall any option to take my Pinnacle Studio project, save it as a set of files another (better) authoring program can understand, and then have that program do the authoring and encoding in VBR with DD 2.0?

Finally, is there a "Codec" FAQ telling me which capturing and encoding Codecs I should be using? They are just a bunch of meaningless names to me. I only want to be able to edit captured audio/video into something that looks decent on DVD. I could even live without menus as long as I could add chapter marks. I never imagined this would be so hard with so much to learn.

Any help would be appreciated. I'm completely stuck. Thanks.

[FOO]

If you can manage to get your video edited and saved
as an AVI you can convert to MPEG2 with Mpeg audio with TMPGenc
in one step. It's about the same size audio as Dolby

and then Author that with MF2, Tmpg DVD author, or DVDlab
The Authoring programs are where you put the chapters.
All of the above have 30 day demos , try one
MF2 will do the encoding also , but most people don't like the quality.

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

This link:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=725433#725433

...may prove useful as it's the process I use to achieve what (it sounds like) you want to do, in a step-by-step way. It's not designed to be a definitive guide, but a record of what I do coz I'm happy with my results. That said, I'm happy to help in any way I can.

Does any single affordable (i.e. <= $100) tool do all of this or do I have to run it through several tools in a particular order?

There may be, but common concensus is that "all-in-one" tools aren't as good as using the best tools for each step.

Why do I need to go from AVI to MPEG2? Why can't something take my AVI files and make VOB files directly like Pinnacle Studio...

Coz that's the way it is - MPEG2 is the format for DVD's. I would guess that Pinnacle Studio takes AVI -> MPEG2 you just don't see it. It then makes the VOBs from the MPEG2.

Do I need an "authoring" program like TMPGEnc Author (not TMPGEnc) to make the edits, add chapter marks and a menu? Once I have generated that, what kind of output files does an authoring program create?

Yes, you do need an authoring program. TDA is a good place to start. This does your chapters and menus etc. and will output the VOB files for burning (TDA burns too).

Note: Making edits isn't authoring - this is done earlier with your source clips to get to a final AVI (or whatever you end up with).

Pinnacle Studio gives the choice of outputting the project in AVI, MPEG2, DVD (VOB), and a few others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I pick AVI or MPEG2 the menu and chapter marks I added will be discarded because they are not stored in AVI or MPG files?

Don't know. However, I'd recommend outputting to DV AVI (or just AVI, if DV AVI isn't available). As choosing MPEG2 will encode AVI -> MPEG2 which is what TMPGEnc is for, most probably giving better results.

Finally, is there a "Codec" FAQ telling me which capturing and encoding Codecs I should be using?

If it plays OK on your PC, you don't need a codec. If you want to see which ones you've got and which you need for any particular file, try out GSpot or AVICodec.

Hope that helps. Good luck...

[Ronaldus]

Thanks for those replies, Daamon and FOO.

Daamon, your link to the other thread provided a lot of good information and got me on the right track. I read through everything in that thread once, and I'll have to read it again because it's complicated stuff (to me). I think I understand the overall steps, so let me try to list what I think I should do:

1. Capture as AVI in Pinnacle Studio 8 using full quality mini-DV format and its default codec. (This is the easiest step)
2. In Pinnacle Studio, edit my video and audio to exactly what I want and then resave it as AVI using full DV quality.
3. Use VirtualDub to pull the audio from the edited AVI into WAV format.
4. Use ffmpegGUI to convert the WAV to AC3.
5. Use TMPGEnc with the video from the AVI (which will also have the LPCM audio stream I don't want to use) and the audio from the AC3 file I created. I will tell TMPGEnc to create a MPEG2 file using 2-pass VBR and the suggested min/max bitrate ranges.
6. Load the MPEG2 file into TMPGEnc DVD Author or DVD Lab, add a menu with thumbnail pictures and chapter marks, and tell it to create VOB files for DVD burning.

If I don't want to convert the 16-bit LPCM audio into AC3, then my steps would be reduced to:

1. Capture into AVI in Pinnacle Studio using full quality mini-DV format and its default codec.
2. Use TMPGEnc with the video and audio from the AVI to create a MPEG2.
3. Load the MPEG2 file into TMPGEnc DVD Author or DVD Lab, edit out the unwanted video & audio, add a menu with thumbnail pictures and chapter marks, and tell it to create VOB files for DVD burning.

The difference between these 2 processes is the latter would give me a constant bit rate LPCM audio taking up a lot of disc space, but the former gives me smaller VBR AC3 audio leaving more room for video?

I assume that DVD authoring programs like TMPGEnc DVD Author or DVD Lab are capable of performing edits in addition to adding menus and chapter stops, but the reason I did the editing FIRST is because the authoring programs can only take MPEG2 as input and MPEG2 has already been VBR-compressed? That is, I would lose quality if I edited the MPEG2 in the authoring program and then generated the VOB files for the DVD because the authoring program would re-encode and generate a new MPEG2 from the first MPEG2 (even if that step is never seen)?

It seems like the process is always AVI -> MPEG2 -> VOB and there is no way to get to VOB except from a MPEG2 file. Therefore, all edits need to be made before the MPEG2 encoding?

By the way, doesn't TMPGEnc allow encoding the LPCM audio from the AVI into MPEG2 audio rather than AC3? If yes, then a MPEG2 file is capable of holding either MPEG2 audio or AC3, and my question is what is the advantage of using AC3 over MPEG2... size or fabled player compatibility? (I remember reading warnings in Pinnacle Studio that MPEG2 audio may not be compatible on all players, but it has worked on all that I have tried.)

Since DVD authoring programs always seem to take MPEG2 files as input, does that mean a DVD authoring program perform no compression or re-encoding of any material in the MPEG2 files? In other words, the authoring program merely takes the MPEG2 audio/video data and puts it into a DVD-compatible format (VOB files), plus it generates a VOB for the menus and IFO files to control everything (including the chapter stops)?

If I got all this right, then I *finally* understand each of these steps, and I think my next big hurdle is to get all the right settings durings these steps. For instance, I looked at the codecs Pinnacle Studio had available, and I had no idea which was the right one to use... I just used the default not knowing if CinePak, DV, or YUV...whatever would be better.

Finally, I believe all of the tools needed in the above steps are freeware, except Pinnacle Studio (which came free with my Canon camcorder) and the authoring program, so hopefully the only additional software purchase I'll have to make is to buy TMPGenc DVD Author or DVD Lab?

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

Thanks for those replies, Daamon and FOO.

Daamon, your link to the other thread provided a lot of good information and got me on the right track.

Pleasure, I'm glad it was of use.

I think I understand the overall steps, so let me try to list what I think I should do:

1 - 4. Yes.
5. Very nearly. You said: "and the audio from the AC3 file I created" - No. I don't believe TMPGEnc (the encoder) accepts AC3. You'll use the AC3 audio file later. Otherwise, step 5 is all OK (you'll get an m2v file which is MPEG2 specs but video only).
6. Very nearly, because of 5, above. You'll load the m2v (video) file and the AC3 (audio) file into your chosen authoring prog, and then continue as you say.

Of course, there are other ways (different approaches / software etc.). That's the way I do it and I like the results very much.

If I don't want to convert the 16-bit LPCM audio into AC3, then my steps would be reduced to:

1. Yes, but do your editing here, not in step 3.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, but do the editing in step 1, not here.

The difference between these 2 processes is the latter would give me a constant bit rate LPCM audio taking up a lot of disc space, but the former gives me smaller VBR AC3 audio leaving more room for video?

Nearly - In both, you'd get VBR video, with the audio in different formats. PCM taking up loads of space, leaving less for the video or AC3, taking up a lot less space, damn close to the same quality and leaving a lot more for the video (by increasing the bitrate by about 1300, and so better quality).

I assume that DVD authoring programs like TMPGEnc DVD Author or DVD Lab are capable of performing edits in addition to adding menus and chapter stops...

I don't believe so - certainly not with TDA. Editing MPG (1 or 2) is considered a lot harder and more likely to result in errors - the most common I've seen is audio out of synch. Though there are tools that seem to do MPEG editing OK - Womble something or other, and another (don't recall the names).

It seems like the process is always AVI -> MPEG2 -> VOB and there is no way to get to VOB except from a MPEG2 file. Therefore, all edits need to be made before the MPEG2 encoding?

Pretty much - Certainly, from what I've read, the best way.

By the way, doesn't TMPGEnc allow encoding the LPCM audio from the AVI into MPEG2 audio rather than AC3?

Yes, TMPGEnc can take in PCM. The audio you get out, if you choose to output to separate files, would be audio.mp2 (with video.m2v as the other file). If you choose to output to a single file (audio & video combined), you'll get audio&video.mpg (MPEG2 format).

TMPGEnc doesn't do AC3 (either in or out).

If yes, then a MPEG2 file is capable of holding either MPEG2 audio or AC3

No, it can't hold AC3. It's the VOB files that hold the video and audio (whatever format that's in).

I think you're getting confused. It might be worth you reading up on the various formats. But you're close enough to not let it worry you, as long as you stick to the steps you've outlined above.

my question is what is the advantage of using AC3 over MPEG2

If you mean AC3 vs MP2 (which are both audio) then there's not much between them: AC3 is a universal audio standard for DVD's, whereas MP2 isn't (though still, it seems, widely acceptable by stand-alone DVD players).

Also, AC3 (when ripped from commercial DVD's) can contain 6 channels, giving the ability for Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound, whereas MP2 is only standard stereo (2 channels). But you won't need that - just info only.

"home enthusiast" AC3 encoders currently (I believe) only encode to 2 channels (stereo).

Since DVD authoring programs always seem to take MPEG2 files as input, does that mean a DVD authoring program perform no compression or re-encoding of any material in the MPEG2 files?

Correct, as far as I know / can tell.

...codecs... just used the default not knowing if CinePak, DV, or YUV...whatever would be better

Go for DV AVI.

...so hopefully the only additional software purchase I'll have to make is to buy TMPGenc DVD Author or DVD Lab?

Nearly - TMPGEnc (the encoder) is trialware for MPEG2, only freeware for MPEG1 (mostly VCD's). You need TMPGEnc Plus to do MPEG2 encoding once the trial period runs out. And, as you say, an authoring prog. I think you can get TMPGEnc Plus and TMPGEnc DVD Author as a package and save a few quid / dollars / Euros (wherever you are...) - check out the TMPGEnc website.

Anyway - It seems like you're well on your way to success. Well done. Please report your resuls, it'd be interesting to see how you get on.

Hope that's of use. Good luck...

[Ronaldus]

Daamon, thanks for another great reply! It's going to take me some time to try this out and absorb all the information. I don't have any more questions at the moment, but I'm sure I will as I actually use these tools and see the results. How can I contact you in the future? Will you automatically notice if I post a followup to this thread in a few weeks, should I start a new thread in this "authoring" forum which you'll hopefully see, or is there a way to email you directly (assuming that's OK with you and it's allowed) when I'm ready?

(Some upcoming deadlines at work are the main reason why I can't give this DVD authoring experimentation the attention I would like to now, but hopefully I'll make a little progress each weekend.)

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

No problem. I'm glad I could help.

If your future question(s) is/are relevant, post them in this thread and I should see it automatically.

If it merits a new post in the same / different forum then do that.

Either way, PM me (with the URL of any new post) and I'll try to help if I can.

I don't mind being emailed - but the advantage of doing it via the forums is that others can see the discussion and may find it useful.

Have fun in the meantime...

[FOO]

A couple of comments:
TDA will edit somewhat . you can cut out parts.
Audio IS multiplexed into the MPEG2 stream. A VOB is
not required.

[daamon]

@ FOO,

Hi - Can you quote / make reference to the (I'm guessing "my") original comments that prompted yours?

Thanks, it'd be good for my knowledge as well as for Ronaldus. I only ask coz there's so much to choose from...

[donpedro]

Most professionally authored DVDs only require a couple hundred MB for high quality DD 2.0 audio...

You want professional product for $99 ? You need to pay more for 2CH-AC3

Which version do you have ?

What is the basic step-by-step process and which tools do I need to accomplish the above 4 steps?

PS8 does not supprt AC3.

TMPGEnc is often mentioned, but I thought all it did was convert AVI to MPEG2. Why do I need to go from AVI to MPEG2? Why can't something take my AVI files and make VOB files directly like Pinnacle Studio, but with VBR and better audio compression, video quality, and space usage?

Even PS8 does not do that in "one" step. There are two steps. Conversion to mpeg2 and then authoring. Advantage of PS8 is that you "don't see it". This does not mean that you are skipping them.

Pinnacle Studio gives the choice of outputting the project in AVI, MPEG2, DVD (VOB), and a few others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I pick AVI or MPEG2 the menu and chapter marks I added will be discarded because they are not stored in AVI or MPG files? I don't recall any option to take my Pinnacle Studio project, save it as a set of files another (better) authoring program can understand, and then have that program do the authoring and encoding in VBR with DD 2.0?

Only DVD will include chapters. Everything else is just file. Video files don't have chapters. It is DVD function.

Finally, is there a "Codec" FAQ telling me which capturing and encoding Codecs I should be using? They are just a bunch of meaningless names to me. I only want to be able to edit captured audio/video into something that looks decent on DVD. I could even live without menus as long as I could add chapter marks. I never imagined this would be so hard with so much to learn.

Try to check my post in my signature.

[donpedro]

Since DVD authoring programs always seem to take MPEG2 files as input, does that mean a DVD authoring program perform no compression or re-encoding of any material in the MPEG2 files? In other words, the authoring program merely takes the MPEG2 audio/video data and puts it into a DVD-compatible format (VOB files), plus it generates a VOB for the menus and IFO files to control everything (including the chapter stops)?

If we are talking about Authoring only then you are right. No re-encode there. Problem is that some software can do more than Authoring. Then it might be different situation. Good example is PS8. You can use it just for authoring without re-encoding but if you setup somthing wrong that it will re-encode. On the other hand Pinnacle Impression DVD would not do anything else but authoring. No editing, encoding....

BTW: When you upload mpeg2 video with audio together to DVD Authoring software that will allow it (not all will), DVD Authoring program will de-multiplex audio and video and later in process it will multiplex them together. So some "real" authoring only software requires import audio and video as separate files

[FOO]

No, it can't hold AC3. It's the VOB files that hold the video and audio (whatever format that's in).

There's the quote. MPEG2 system streams can have a number of
audio and video (and other) streams. I have the specs

[daamon]

Cheers FOO - I never knew that. I always thought (assumed, I guess) that MPEG2 could only contain MPEG audio and video.

Can you provide a link to the specs, or summarised details? It'd be interesting to know...

Thanks.

[FOO]

http://neuron2.net/library/mpeg2/iso138181.doc

[daamon]

Wow! Looks comprehensive (scarily detailed more like).

Thanks FOO.

[Ronaldus]

Here is a followup to my first post. I have been experimenting with the following on an AMD XP 2000+ processor with 512 MB PC2100 DDR and lots of hard drive space under Windows 2000 using a 21 minute AVI file:

1. Capture from a camcorder in AVI using the DV Video Encoder codec in Pinnacle Studio DV 8.
2. Edit out the unwanted parts and re-save using the DV Video Encoder in Pinnacle Studio 8. The re-saving took about 6 minutes.
3. Load the edited AVI in Virtual Dub and select the Save to WAV option. I didn't mess with any settings in Virtual Dub. This results in a WAV file of the AVI's sound and took about 5 minutes.
4. Use ffmpegGUI to convert the WAV to AC3 192 Kbps. This step took 1-2 minutes.
5. Use TMPGEnc on the AVI with various settings from a setup guide on dvd-hq.info to generate a .M2V MPEG2 video file. I tried "high quality" rather than "highest quality", and for the 2-pass VBR I chose 2000 as my minimum bitrate, 6000 as average, and 8000 as the maximum. The 21 minutes of video took well over 2 hours to encode.
6. Use TMPGEnc DVD Author by selecting the .M2V and .AC3 files. I used the default menus and dropped a few chapter marks. I didn't see any other settings I needed to play around with as I did not care much about the menus. This step took about 5-10 minutes. As this was the first time I've used an authoring program besides Pinnacle Studio, I was surprised how little there was to this step unless you want fancy menus. The most critical step seems to be #5.
7. Burned the resulting files (about 1.3 GB) with Nero.

I tried it on my standalone DVD player and I was reasonably happy with the results. I noticed the player's reported bitrate rarely varied from 6 Mbps, but when it did it would sometimes go over 8.

Now for some questions:

Next I took a 80+ minute AVI and edited it down to 75 minutes. The AVI re-save in step #2 took about 20 minutes. Is this much time normal or is it so long I must be re-encoding the whole AVI (Pinnacle says "rendering")? If I am re-encoding while using the same codec for the capture and re-save, any ideas what am I doing wrong? Is there a way to be sure I'm not re-encoding besides timing the operation? Visually I can't tell any difference, so maybe the loss is trivial. I read Don Pedro's excellent Pinnacle Studio thread, but I admit all this info is overwhelming and it may take several re-readings before it all sinks in. It must've taken me 30+ hours of reading and several posts over a couple months before I got this far.

Is Save to WAV the only thing I need to do in Virtual Dub to get a WAV file so I can convert it to AC3? In other words, I can ignore all other settings and features in Virtual Dub?

In the most critical step #5 (the MPEG2 encoding), the 75 minute file said it would take about 10 hours to encode at "highest quality". I switched to "high quality" and it estimated 6.5 hours (and it is encoding as I write this so I haven't seen the results). Does anyone have a similar computer system who can tell me if an encode time/playback time ratio of 8:1 for "highest quality" and 5:1 for "high quality" is typical? I'm worried I may
have set some options wrong causing it to take too long, but I followed the TMPGEnc setup guide on dvd-hq.info almost exactly. I checked Task Manager to make sure TMPGEnc DVD Author was getting 97-99% of the CPU time.

For those experienced with TMPGEnc, does "highest quality" make enough difference over "high quality" that you spend the extra encoding time to use it?

A scenario I haven't yet tried is the following. Suppose I have 4 different 21 minute segments I wish to put on a single DVD. What would happen to the resulting .M2V files if I ran each one through steps 1-5 separately and then tried to load them all sequentially into TMPGEnc DVD Author vs. if I pasted all 4 of them together into 1 file in step 2?

Specifically, I'm trying to understand how TMPGEnc figures out what VBR to use. For instance, with a single 21 minute segment, wouldn't it use the full 6000 or 8000 Mbps because it thinks it has plenty of disc space? But if I combined all 4 segments to get an 84 minute AVI, wouldn't it have to use a bit rate less than 6000 Mbps to fit it all on a DVD? Basically I'd like to know how to make sure TMPGEnc encodes all 4 segments to fill the entire DVD with the best quality.

Please point me to any threads which discuss any of these things. I'm sure everything has been discussed before, but finding it is difficult. Thanks so much!

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

I tried it on my standalone DVD player and I was reasonably happy with the results

Well done - Sounds like you've got the basics and just need to tweak / fine tune.

The AVI re-save in step #2 took about 20 minutes. Is this much time normal or is it so long I must be re-encoding the whole AVI (Pinnacle says "rendering")?

See this link for a crude explanation on what "rendering" is. Given that it's taking 20 minutes, I'd say (with your system specs in mind) that it's just rendering rather than re-encoding, so nothing to worry about over quality loss - hence your quote: "Visually I can't tell any difference..."

It must've taken me 30+ hours of reading and several posts over a couple months before I got this far

That's good going... Count yourself lucky - There's all sorts of technical things that could've hampered your progress, not to mention sync issues and..... the list is endless.

Is Save to WAV the only thing I need to do in Virtual Dub...

That's all I do - just make sure that when you transfer from your DV cam to DV AVI with Pinnacle that the audio is set to capture at 48,000Hz (that's the DVD spec). If not, this can be done in VirtualDub but can easliy be avoided if you've got Pinnacle set up properly.

Does anyone have a similar computer system who can tell me if an encode time/playback time ratio of 8:1 for "highest quality" and 5:1 for "high quality" is typical?

I have a 1.8Ghz CPU and not sure of the FSB or memory (512Mb) "speed" (sorry - I'm not technical that way), and it took around 8 hours to encode 36 mins at a max bitrate @ 9,200 (Can't remember what the quality setting was - either "high" or "highest"). So, a 75 minute footage in 10 hours seems reasonable. TMPGEnc has a reputation for being an excellent encoder, if a little on the slow side.

Make sure that ALL other unneccessary apps (firewalls, virus scans etc.) are closed down and not showing in Task Manager. Anything that needs memory or CPU time will slow the process.

A scenario I haven't yet tried is the following. Suppose I have 4 different 21 minute segments I wish to put on a single DVD. What would happen to the resulting .M2V files if I ran each one through steps 1-5 separately and then tried to load them all sequentially into TMPGEnc DVD Author vs. if I pasted all 4 of them together into 1 file in step 2?

A: "load them all sequentially into TMPGEnc DVD Author": TMPGEnc DVD Author (TDA) wouldn't be able to take all 4 as one track - you'd have to load them as four separate tracks. Effectively, it's like having four separate movies, each with their own chapter points etc., on the disc with the main menu choosing which movie to play. Much like one disc having four episodes of a TV series.

That said, you could use TMPGEnc's "Tools"->"Merge" function to join the .m2v's - This will give you one file which will appear as one track in TDA.

B: "if I pasted all 4 of them together into 1 file in step 2?": You'd get the one DV AVI for encoding which would lead to the one track on the DVD disc.

A vs B? A will take longer in terms of your time as there will be common steps that nead repeating by you for each file, rather than just once for one file. The encoding time, in total, will be pretty much the same.

Specifically, I'm trying to understand how TMPGEnc figures out what VBR to use.

TMPGEnc, in 2-pass VBR, scans the video in the first pass and works out what bitrates to use for each frame (I think it's per frame - not 100% on this). For scenes with slower movement in, it's a low bitrate and a high bitrate for faster movement.

The second pass then takes this information and does the encoding whilst sticking to the min, max and averages that you set.

I think that's roughly VBR explaind - anyone please feel free to expand...

For instance, with a single 21 minute segment, wouldn't it use the full 6000 or 8000 Mbps because it thinks it has plenty of disc space?

TMPGEnc has no knowledge of, nor is it concerned with disk space (I'm presuming you mean on a DVD disk). If you tell it to encode a 4 hour AVI at a CBR of 9,500kbps it'll do it (eventually) providing there's room on your hard drive. It's down to you to make sure the bitrate settings are such that you can fit it onto your DVD(s).

But if I combined all 4 segments to get an 84 minute AVI, wouldn't it have to use a bit rate less than 6000 Mbps to fit it all on a DVD?

No, I believe you can get around 100 mins at a high bitrate onto one DVD disk (providing you use compressed audio (MP2 or AC3), I'd guess).

If your aiming to get over (approx.) 100mins onto a DVD, you'll either need to reduce the quality (by reducing the bitrate, see below) or keep the quality and split the output on to more than 1 disc.

A bitrate calculator is used to tell you what bitrate you need to use either:
1. As a max for Constant Bitrate encoding - CBR, or
2. As the average for Variable Bitrate encoding - VBR (as I use).

A good one is the DVDRHelp Bitrate Calculator, but there are others in the Tools section.
Basically I'd like to know how to make sure TMPGEnc encodes all 4 segments to fill the entire DVD with the best quality.

Basically I'd like to know how to make sure TMPGEnc encodes all 4 segments to fill the entire DVD with the best quality

In summary, I'd say make sure any unwanted background processes are closed, compare "high" vs "highest" quality on short clips (with both slow scenes and fast scenes if possible) with the max bitrate as high as you can get (don't forget the audio bitrate needs to be taken into account, and length of footage for one disk is approx. 100 mins for the proper project). And you've got the bitrate calculator should you need it.

Phew, done. Hope that helps. Good luck... Post back how you get on.

[FOO]

You are doing an unnecessary encode to DV when you save
from Pinnacle. If you used Vdub to cut out parts and frameserved
to TMPGenc you could skip that.

[Ronaldus]

Daamon, thanks for the super fast response!

I read it and then checked the 75 minutes of video I had set to encode last night, and sure enough TMPGEnc has no concept of DVD space. Somehow I got the incorrection idea encoders try to proportionally adjust everything on the 2nd VBR pass so I expected to see something nearer to 4 GB. Silly me! Maybe the file size I got below is exactly 75 minutes @ 6 Kbps. The results:

- Video only .M2V file: 3,289,960 bytes with 2000 min, 8000 max, 6000 average bitrate. VBR encoding time: 6 hours 23 minutes at "high quality".
- AC3 file: 105,305 bytes @ 192 Kbps. Time on Virtual Dub: 10-20 minutes (unfortunately it closes the window when it's done and I didn't watch), WAV to AC3: 3 minutes.

So I've wasted about 1 GB of my total disc space and need to redo the video encoding using the bitrate calculator. From your reply it sounds like you think I did all other steps correctly?

I just played with the dvdrhelp bitrate calculator typing in 1 hour 15 minutes, 192 kbps for audio with a custom size of 4464 MB. Should I use 1kbit = 1000 or 1024 bits for TMPGEnc? It says Calculated Bitrate = 7907 and Max Bitrate = 9603. If I re-run TMPGEnc with 7900 and 9600 instead of 6000 and 8000 will I get the right size .M2V file to nearly fill the DVD when I'm all done authoring? I thought I read somewhere that some DVD players don't like > 9000 Kbps and the bitrate calculator is for video only, so don't I have to add 192 Kbps for audio? Can I safely use 9600 as my max bit rate, or should I use 8800 to make sure it's under 9000 with the audio?

I read your link to the rendering definition. You said that re-saving to AVI with the same codec is not re-encoding. However, FOO says I am doing an unnecessary encode in step #2. Now I'm not sure which is right.

FOO or Daamon, is there a way I can verify if re-encoding (not just re-saving) is going on? I don't care about the 20 minutes of time if that's how long a re-save takes in Pinnacle, but I do care about a loss in quality (even if I can't visually see it). FOO, is your comment based on my saving time of 20 minutes for 75 minutes of AVI or your knowledge of Pinnacle? I thought Don Pedro's Pinnacle thread said encoding is avoided if the same Codec is used, just as Daamon said.

I don't know what "frameserving" is, but I suppose I can try Virtual Dub for editing the original AVI and see if it's easier/faster than Pinnacle.

For ease, if I'm making compilations I think I will combine everything at step #2 to save time, but it's nice to know TMPGEnc has a tool to merge .M2V files afterwards without re-encoding (I haven't gone through all its menus yet to see that option).

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

No problem...

Should I use 1kbit = 1000 or 1024 bits for TMPGEnc?

The short answer is: "I don't know". Sorry. However...

I put in the same figures as you and, having 1kbit = 1,024 bits means that the resultant bitrates are 7721 and 9378 - lower than the ones you got with 1kbit = 1,000bits. This means that, as a safety measure, if you use these it should definitely produce a file near the max size, if not at the max size. If it's slightly smaller than the max, then you know to use 1,000 bits = 1 kbit...

I thought I read somewhere that some DVD players don't like > 9000 Kbps...

If they don't, I reckon it's a bit naughty. The max bitrate (as per the spec under the link "DVDR" in blue, at the top left of the page) is 9.8Mbps. TMPGEnc DVD Author reports this as 9,848kbps if it's exceeded.

...and the bitrate calculator is for video only, so don't I have to add 192 Kbps for audio?

Sort of correct - depends how you look at. Yes, it calculates the bitrate for the video only, but you've entered the audio bitrate so this is taken off to ensure that video + audio <= max bitrate allowed.

You said that re-saving to AVI with the same codec is not re-encoding. However, FOO says I am doing an unnecessary encode in step #2. Now I'm not sure which is right.

They're both right as they're not related. I'll (try to) explain...

At present, you're taking in AVI, setting up fades, transitions, adding music etc. Before this can be treated as complete it has to be rendered. Only then can you output the finished article as an AVI - i.e. no re-encoding, so no loss of quality.

Or, you can frameserve (in Premiere, I can render separately before saving, Pinnacle may be the same - you'll probably still need to render). Rather than saving as the finished AVI (meaning you're using extra diskspace) and then taking that AVI as an input into TMPGEnc (kind of an intermediary step to get from one app to another), you can create a "link" between Pinnacle and VirtualDub.

It is across this link which the data that would've been in the finished AVI is communicated and used as the input for TMPGEnc from which to encode to MPEG2. Thus skipping the "save the file, use the file as an input" step and turning it into "take the info from one and use as an input for the other, transmitted over the link between the two"...

That said, I've never done it - I'm only repeating what I understand as frameserving.

FOO or Daamon, is there a way I can verify if re-encoding (not just re-saving) is going on?

Mmmm... Not really sure. All I can think to suggest is to take details of your pre-edited AVI and compare that against the details of your post edit AVI (things like quality = XX% etc.) - I'd guess (stick my neck out) that if you're using Pinnacle to save to AVI, it will save an AVI, but won't re-encode and so the details will be the same. Use either of GSpot or AVICodec.

Keep us posted...

[FOO]

I have to say I don't know if Pinnacle applies the DV encoder to the
whole movie or just edits. I suspect it does the whole thing because
it would be easier for the programmers.
I think 20 min for 75 min movie implies more than just data copy
I don't even know how to find out easily.
I could suggest opening a DV file in Pinnacle - don't do anything -
save as DV , and do a binary file compare

[donpedro]

Shortly about "20min". PS8 have something called SmartRendering. What that means is that ir renders (re-encode) only parts that are changed from original file, rest is just copy.

Can I prove that ? Hmmm... You can do couple of tests. BTW: Since you "EDITED" your file it is not just plain copy. Studio has to find exact spot from were to get data and where to stop and then get next part (scene) and extract it from source file and add it to new file.

Test 1 : Take 75min DV AVI file and copy it from one directory to another. How long does it take ?

Test 2 : Take file at any leght. Try to re-save it in DV AVI and measure time. Than add title that will be on video through whole time. From the beggining to the end. Try to re-save it in DV AVI. This time it will re-encode since you changed video. Measure time and compare. Please post results.

Last comment. When PS8 is displaying message "Rendering" it is ...
a) evaluating if rendering is needed.
b) for parts that is is needed, it re-renders
c) for parts that it does not, it just doing plain copy
I would feel confused if it would change statuses back and forward between "evaluating", "rendering" and "copying".

[Ronaldus]

Hi, everyone. I'm still in the process of slowly trying things out (which takes me a long time because I generally have less than an hour of free time each day except on the weekends), but I did accomplish a few things.

First, I used my 21 minute AVI for Don Pedro's suggested tests. Copying 4,820,856 KB between HDs took 2 minutes 37 seconds. Loading this file into PS 8 and the re-saving without any changes takes 4 minutes 20 seconds. I then overlayed a title for the whole duration and after 20 minutes it looked like it was barely a quarter of the way through "rendering" if the progress bar can be believed. Unfortunately I'm running low on HD space and need to organize things before I can finish the test. I found PS 8 simply gives up if it runs out of temp space without an error message, even if there is enough space on the destination drive.

Given these numbers, it's hard to know exactly what happened on my 75 minute AVI which took 20 minutes to save as AVI after a few edits (cuts only... I never use transitions or overlays). Clearly PS is not doing a full re-encode, but it may be doing some. When I get time I'll try my test again and then trimming out a frame at various spots to see how it affects time. I found the re-saved AVI file that took 4 minutes and 20 seconds was not identical to the source, which was surprising to me. Also unfortunate is that viewing AVIs on my PC monitor through Windows media player always looks bad and it's hard to judge quality that way.

In addition, I took the 75 minute file I had encoded at 6 Mbps average (where about 1 GB of space was wasted) and tried it on a DVD-RW. It would not play on a new Toshiba nor old Pioneer players, but it would play in 2 Panasonics. When it failed it would play for 1-2 seconds and then just pause. Stepping forward on the remote would not work, but if I hit fast forward or rewind it would play for another second or two and then pause itself again. Most of the time there was no sound. Of course PowerDVD/WinDVD had no problems playing this (they rarely do).

Any ideas if this is because I had something set wrong during the process or is it to be expected that some players can't handle files generated by TMPGEnc (or other encoders for that matter)?

Next, I did an A-B test of the 75 minute DVD-RW vs. the source I captured it from. I started both at the same time and flipped back and forth on the TV set. Overall I was happy with the quality and there were no motion effects (obvious compression artifacts). In fact, the contrast was slightly sharper and the picture a little brighter than the original which I thought made it look better. However, there was a slight general fuzziness to high contrast edges and worse yet there was what looked like a gauze over the entire image. It's really hard to describe because you can't notice it if you sit way back, but up close there are vertical shadow lines that tend to stay still as the scene moves. It makes it look like you are viewing through a 95% transparent gauze with vertical lines. I could live with it, but in A-B comparing the source, those vertical lines and the slight edge fuzziness were not in the original.

Any ideas what TMPGEnc encoder settings might be responsible for these effects? Maybe it just needs a higher bit rate, but you'd think 6 Mbps average (4 Mbps min, 8 Mbps max, and "high quality") would be good enough. I used Bit Rate Viewer to see that it stayed near 6 Mbps the whole time. In fact, the Bit Rate Viewer tool worked so fast I'm still a bit dubious it could accurately sample or scan the entire DVD in what seemed like 1 second. Maybe bit rate sampling information is stored in the .IFO file?

I used the TMPGEnc settings in http://dvd-hq.info/Compression.html, where the author suggested changing few settings from their defaults. Some settings I used are: DC component precision = 10 bits, I = 1, P = 4, B = 1, max frames in GOP = 18, output closed GOP = disabled, output basic YCbCr = enabled, no half-pixel motion = disabled, and soften block noise = disabled.

I will continue to experiment and try encoding shorter clips with different settings to see if I can figure out what causes the fuzziness and gauze-like problems, but with so little time each week it will take me a long time before I can isolate the problem assuming it's not simply inherent in the process. For all I know, these problems might already be in the AVI from the capture, but like I said AVIs look terrible on my 17" monitor when I view them, so I can't accurately judge. Is there a way to view AVIs full-screen on a 17" monitor without having the interlacing effects which make lines jagged and blurry and cause some distorted blocks? In the meantime, any suggestions or guesses on the causes of my problems would be great to help me avoid lots of trial and error. Thanks!

P.S. Should I start a new thread or continue to let this grow as I keep adding questions about new issues I encounter?

[donpedro]

Difference between 2m37s and 4m20s, or in file... I would say that it is because PS8 is "reading" frames from source and placing them (constructing) new AVI file.

Try PowerDVD for playing files if it helps. It should (I think) help with interlacing problem.

Playing problem that you describe sounds like media issue. I might be wrong but that was happening to me and when burned to DVD-R, problem went away. But there is posibility that it is not the same.

[Ronaldus]

Donpedro, since I've used DVD-RWs in the Pioneer and Toshiba players before without problems, I know it's not that they can't read DVD-RWs, so I believe it has to do with the way this disc was encoded or authored. I guess I will try using an actual DVD-R to prove the point, but I think it's 99% sure the freezing problem is not the media. I should try another authoring program. I'll have to re-read your Pinnacle thread to see if it will allow authoring given a .m2v and .ac3 file. IIRC, Pinnacle can't handle the .ac3 file.

I didn't realize PowerDVD (hopefully WinDVD too) could play AVI files. I'll try that. Thanks.

[donpedro]

IIRC, Pinnacle can't handle the .ac3 file.

Correct. Not even PS9, but it can make dolby suround prologic type of sound. Should be cool. I am waiting for my upgrade.

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

Playing problem that you describe sounds like media issue

since I've used DVD-RWs in the Pioneer and Toshiba players before without problems, I know it's not that they can't read DVD-RWs

I suspect that donpedro may have meant the brand / manufacturer of the media rather than the fact that it's a DVD-RW. Who's the make of your DVD-RW's? Obviously, there's always gonna be higher quality (more reliable during playback) than others...

[Ronaldus]

Daamon, I only have 1 DVD-RW and it's the same Pioneer one that came with the drive that has worked fine on every player I've tried. It's true that the -RW loads slower, but once it starts playing it never has problems. This was the first time.

Given that you didn't have any other comments on my last post -- especially about the mysterious "transparent gauze" over my video or TMPGEnc settings, does that mean you've never heard of or seen this problem before?

I'm sure I can get around the player problem by only using Panasonics or switching authoring programs, but the less than ideal video may be a hurdle I can't jump. Hopefully PowerDVD and WinDVD will be able to play the original AVI so I can eliminate the capture as the source of the "transparent gauze" (for lack of a better word to describe it).

Perhaps I should post the question about my TMPGEnc settings and this problem separately so that more people see it? I was somewhat concerned that using IPPPPB and no half-pixel motion = disabled might be poor choices causing the "gauze" and that output basic YCbCr = enabled and soften block noise = disabled might be responsible for the fuzziness on edges, but those are wild guesses. Could tell me what you use for these settings? Thanks.

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

I only have 1 DVD-RW and it's the same Pioneer one that came with the drive that has worked fine on every player I've tried

I see.

...does that mean you've never heard of or seen this problem before?

Yep. Sorry.

...using IPPPPB and no half-pixel motion = disabled ... and that output basic YCbCr = enabled and soften block noise = disabled... Could tell me what you use for these settings?

As an initial response, I believe I use whatever is in the guide http://dvd-hq.info/Compression.html that I referred you to (I followed it to the letter for my circumstances).

I shall have a look tonight and post back with specific settings.

D.

[daamon]

Hi Ronaldus,

...using IPPPPB and no half-pixel motion = disabled ... and that output basic YCbCr = enabled and soften block noise = disabled... Could tell me what you use for these settings?

OK, here goes, I've got my settings at:

IBPBPBPBPB = I x 1, P x 4, B x 1
no half-pixel motion = disabled
output basic YCbCr = disabled
soften block noise = disabled

I have to confess, I don't really understand how these settings affect the end product, just that I'm happy with my finished article (holiday videos and friends weddings etc.).

Hope that helps...