Editing a DVD

[sjmaye]

I was considering paying a company to transfer my Super 8 home movies to DVD, but I want to work through the editing myself.

Once they transfer it to a DVD can I still get at the digital video files to work with them?

[holistic]

Ask them if they will do it to DV (*.avi) then supply a suitable sized hardrive.
A harddrive in a firewire/USB2 external enclosure should not present any problems ...... unless then were being a-holes about it. In fact it would proberly be less work for them.

FYI : DV = ~13Gb for every hour.

][

[andkiich]

sjmaye,
You can access the video files after they get placed on the DVD, you'd have to ripp the DVD and then demux the VOBs. Just remember that if you make any changes and or need to re-encode, the quality of the finished product may not look as good as what you get from the company. It would be better if you could get the files from the company in raw format and work with it like that, but if you are going to do that why not just capture and encode them yourself?

[sjmaye]

sjmaye,
It would be better if you could get the files from the company in raw format and work with it like that, but if you are going to do that why not just capture and encode them yourself?

I had originally planned on recording the Super 8mm film to a DV camcorder, but the camcorder I have access to is not up to the task. I figured a good camcorder would cost at least twice the cost of converting my measly 1400' of film and I am not sure how good the quality might be.

Plan 'B' was to maybe pay someone to convert the film to DV or mini-DV, play it back from a borrowed DV camcorder and capture the video to the computer.

[fourthquark]

Yes you can still get at the video files after conversion to DVD. However, if your subsequent edits result in the video being re-encoded, there will be some quality loss. How much quality loss depends on several factors (bitrate of the input file, bitrate of the output file, encoder setings, etc.). Whether the quality loss is noticeable will also depend on how picky you are.

If you are really picky about video quality, the better solution is to convert to DV format, archive in the original video in DV format, edit in DV format, then convert the final product to DVD. The problem with DV format is size - 13GB per hour. Depending on how much video you have, you could buy a big hard disk to archive the DV video; or you could archive the DV video on mini-DV tapes (1 hour per tape).

Blue-light optical storage is on the horizon. This is the missing link for digitizing analog video. I believe it will be able to store 27GB per disk, which means you will be able to fit 2 hours of DV video on a disk. Analog Video8 format recordings are 2 hours per tape, so this will be the perfect medium for archiving and preserving analog video.

[Vejita-sama]

Generally speaking editing MPEG files is a huge pain in the a&&. You REALLY do not want to do this. What most people do is: rip DVD -> convert to avi (codec) -> DVD

There will be a quaility lost. While you can do some simple editing of MPEG files they were really meant to be the final form of previously edited video. You can only cut at I-frames and most programs have to re-generate the entire MPEG each time you edit it. This leads to lots of huge files.

For small projects I normally rip, run DVD2AVI, the VFPAI codec, edit, framserve to CCE. The quaility lost is normally un-noticeable to my eye. But it's a long slow process. Best to try to get access to the original source files if possible.

[sjmaye]

So, if I did simply have a company convert the film to DV does that mean the data that is on that DV tape is .avi or is it converted to .avi as it is being capture from the camcorder?

Either way it allows me to edit it without ripping etc. Does this process lose more quality than ripping a DVD...?

Am I thinking right?

PS- I have confirmed that I am capturing OK. It is all a matter of getting a quality transfer from film.

[Solarjetman]

Well, if they transfer it to DV, then you are essentially getting the "raw data". If you have them make a DVD, it will have gone through encoding. And if you rip the video and encode it agian, you may lose quality.

[sjmaye]

Well, if they transfer it to DV, then you are essentially getting the "raw data".

So this sounds like the best approach to keep as much quality as possible?

[fourthquark]

So, if I did simply have a company convert the film to DV does that mean the data that is on that DV tape is .avi or is it converted to .avi as it is being capture from the camcorder?

If the company converts film to DV and puts it on a mini-DV tape for you, what you would do is put the tape into a mini-DV camcorder, connect the camcorder to your computer using the camcorder's IEE1394 (aka Frewire or iLink) connector, and "capture" the video from the tape to your computer hard disk . This would produce an AVI file on your hard disk with the video in DV format. Then you could edit the DV video and save the final product in any format you want. The output format you choose will depend on what you are planning to do with the finished video. If you are planning to put the finished video onto a DVD that can be played on a DVD player, the appropriate format would be DVD-video compliant MPEG2. Your editing program will be able to "produce" or output the video in a variety of formats. If you chose to, you could even run the finished video back out to mini-DV tape in DV format.

A note on terminology. IEE1394 video "capture" is actually a digital file transfer from tape to hard disk. The actual digital stream (zeros and ones) is being transferred from storage on mini-DV tape to storage on your hard disk. The AVI file on your hard disk becomes the container for this digital stream. People tend to use the phrase "video capture" for both analog-to-digital conversion as well as IEE1394 transfers. Both types of transfers can produce AVI files, and this leads to confusion when you are trying to learn about digital video.

Either way it allows me to edit it without ripping etc. Does this process lose more quality than ripping a DVD...?

The term "ripping" is usually used to describe the specific process of doing a bit-for-bit copy of digital data from a CD or DVD dsic. Ripping makes an exact copy of the digital stream as it exists on a CD or DVD disc. So there is no quality loss associated with "ripping". In your scenario, the quality loss would have been incurred during the process of converting the video from film to digital. If the film video is digitized and saved directly into DVD-quality digital format (i.e., same quality as DVD rental movies), it will be much more highly compressed than if it was digitized and saved into DV-standard format. DVD-quality video (like DVD movies) is represented digitally by about 500 kilobits per second, while DV video is represented by about 3500 kilobits per second. So as you can see, DV video has 7 times as many bits to represent the video, resulting in higher quality video with less detail loss (at the expense of larger files).

So this sounds like the best approach to keep as much quality as possible?

Yes definitely. The important part of the conversion for maintaining quality ( = maintaining detail) is the first step. Once you lose detail, you cannot get it back. So if your film is converted to a low bitrate digital format during the initial conversion, or saved to a low bitrate digital format anywhere along the way, there will be detail loss, and you cannot get the detail back by subsequently re-converting to a high-bitrate digital format. The information is no longer there to "get back".

[sjmaye]

Now that's an answer! Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this in detail and in a way I can understand.

This would produce an AVI file on your hard disk with the video in DV format. Then you could edit the DV video and save the final product in any format you want.

I understand this completely, but I see that my video editing softwaft shows that I can edit avi and mpg files. I know the avi's will be a result of the video capture process. Where do the mpg's normally come from. I assume they could be a compressed version of an avi, but I am wondering why someone would be editing these in normal circumstances.

If you are planning to put the finished video onto a DVD that can be played on a DVD player, the appropriate format would be DVD-video compliant MPEG2.

I see all the different DVD formats and must say I am a bit confused. Based on what I see, if I want to be sure the DVD I produce will play on most stand alone DVD players I would want the DVD-R or DVD-RW format. Another reasonably popular format is the DVD+R and DVD+RW. I see many DVD burners producing this format. If I just want to e absolutely sure I should choose DVD-R?

The important part of the conversion for maintaining quality ( = maintaining detail) is the first step. Once you lose detail, you cannot get it back.

Quality. This is partially the reason I am considering having someone transfer the video from film to DV for me. While previewing the Super 8mm movies I noticed how poor the images are. Coloring seems washed out and picture quality is grainy and poor.

Is there anything a professional transfer company can do to improve the image quality during transfer? Or am I expecting a miracle?

[holistic]

Where do the mpg's normally come from

What ?! we can't tell you that .Then everyone will know our dirty secret :P :P

Seriously - MPEG is a compression codec. "Comes from" mpeg encoders - such as TMPGEnc.

..If I just want to e absolutely sure I should choose DVD-R?..

Really dosen't matter ,get what ever you can afford. There is a new format war a brewing - BluRay - .There will never be a standard.
DVD-R (RW) same just one is 're-writable' .Same said for DVD+RW
If years from now you wish to move to another type of digital media it should be a simple case of copying *.vobs to hardrive and 'reauthoring' in the new fomat (time will tell).

..movies I noticed how poor the images are. Coloring seems washed out and picture quality is grainy and poor...

Personally i would prefer to do my own "filtering" that way you can get it the way you want it. VirtualDub has a fine selection of filters. Important though you set the color correctly on you monitor before making adjustments.

][

[sjmaye]

Personally i would prefer to do my own "filtering" that way you can get it the way you want it. VirtualDub has a fine selection of filters. Important though you set the color correctly on you monitor before making adjustments.

You would use or apply the filters after the capture is complete? I was wondering if anything could be done during transfer from film to DV.

[holistic]

You would use or apply the filters after the capture is complete? I was wondering if anything could be done during transfer from film to DV.

Yes - may cost extra
Also you are leaving the "perception" judgment up to them. ie: is it green enough - is it light enough.
Although they (the people doing the super8) most likely have previous experience with these issues and have the knowledge base to do it right.

If once the transfer from super8 to DV is done you can still tweek it.
Filters done before the encode to MPEG

Of intrest : Unless you are lucky to have super8 with sound, once you get the finished DV there are lots of quality editing programs available that will allow you to do voice overs and add sountracks.

][

[sjmaye]

quality I can see how filters might help colors. What can be done with the poor overall image quality? I have MediaStudio Pro 7. I have had little experience as to what all it can do. I will explore.

[holistic]

No - when i speak of filters, i include such are what you are asking.

You cannot improve on the original BUT you can fake it by 'blending' , 'smoothing' etc

see link for examples http://neuron2.net/mine.html

][

[holistic]

OOOPs !.

Cannot comment on Studio Pro7 - Never used it.

For simple files my preference is for Virtual Dub - great selection of filters
For complex editing i use Premiere 6

][

[fourthquark]

DVD-quality video (like DVD movies) is represented digitally by about 500 kilobits per second, while DV video is represented by about 3500 kilobits per second.

Correction - that should have been 500 kilobytes and 3500 kilobytes respectively. But the comparisos is still valid.


sjmaye,

You are mixing up digital video encoding and physical media characteristics and DVD-video specification.

DV and MPEG describe how the digital video data has been encoded. It says nothing about the medium used to store the digital video.

DVD-video is a specification. The DVD-video specification calls for the video to be encoded as MPEG (usually MPEG2), the video file(s) have to be named in a certain way, and several other folders and files must be present. Set-top players will only play DVD discs that contain video files that are "packaged" in accordance with the DVD-Video specification.

The process of taking the "raw" MPEG video and packaging it to meet the DVD-Video specification is called "DVD Authoring". Some software packages can do video editing as well as DVD authoring all in the same package. Other video packages do only video editing or DVD authoring (there is some overlap - often a "DVD Authoring" package will have some rudimetary video editing capabilities built into it).

Finally, there is the physical medium where the data gets stored. DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW describe different types of physical media (all are 5.25-inch disks). You can store any type of digital data on these physical media. In fact they are often used to back up all types of digital files, not just video files.

It is helpful to realize that a DVD-spec-compliant video "package" can also be stored on your hard disk (think of your hard disk as another type of physical medium). It does not have to be written to a 5.25-inch disk. However, if you want to play the video through a set-top player, then you obviously need to write the "package" onto a 5.25-inch disk.

The choice between DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW discs is largely irrelevant nowadays - most modern set-top players can read any of these physical media.


So if your final target is a DVD-disc that can be played in set-top players, and you start with video in DV format, here is the process:

1. "Capture" DV video to your hard disk.
2. Edit the video.
3. Ouput the video as a DVD-Video compliant raw MPEG2 file.
4. Author the raw MPEG2 video file to produce a DVD-Video specification-compliant "package".
5. Write the "authored package" to a 5.25-inch DVD disc.

Also realize that not all software packages will make all these steps visible to you. In some cases, steps 3, 4, and 5 may be all rolled up into one function called "Write DVD" or "Output to DVD" or "Produce DVD" or something similar.

[sjmaye]

It is helpful to realize that a DVD-spec-compliant video "package" can also be stored on your hard disk (think of your hard disk as another type of physical medium)

If I store a copy of a DVD-spec-compliant on my hard drive does this cimplify making additional copies?

[fourthquark]

Yes. Many DVD-Authoring programs give you the option of "writing to your hard disk" to make it easier to write extra copies to DVD disc. Actually the files are already on your hard disk because your hard disk is the working medium where the DVD-Video spec-compliant folders and files are generated.