Problems and Questions ab. ATI All-In-Wonder 7500

[antonv]

I recently changed my graphics card from ATI Rage Fury Pro (Video in/Video out card with 352x240 capture capability) to ATI AIW 7500. It says in the manual that the card has some mpeg-2 hardware decoder. When I tried to capture MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 with 720x480 resolution, both captures were the same quality and the same 33% frame drops on my PIII 600.

I have 4 questions:
1) Is it any way to capture with resolution 720x480 without frame drops on PIII 600 ?
2) Is it a big difference in quality between capturing in 352x240 and 740x480 due to the interlacing problems that make 720x480 capture smoother then it should be ?
3) I tried to capture with 720x480 to PICVideo MJPEG. The resulting file has 0 dropped frames and does not seem to be slow or somehow akward when playing on computer. However, when watching MJPEG captured file in DVD player (that always plays mpeg-captured video normally) after encoding with TMPGEnc (VCD/SVCD template), Video seems to jump to frames and does not look live and natural. How to make MJPEG look normal in the end ?
4) Is it worth changing from Rage Fury Pro to AIW 7500 only because I need higher capture resolution and TV-out with NTSC/PAL support ?

My computer is PIII 600, 128 MB, 40GB 7200 RPM, ATI AIW 7500, Win2000

Thank you all in advance.

[orourke]

Hey, just a note with PICVideo MJPEG.

Its specifically a capture codec, the playback using the codec is VERY poor.

So now your asking yourself, well why use it then!?
The answer being, you re-encode to whatever end format you would like, most people prefer vcd/svcd or divx/xvid. The quality of the end product unmistakenly better than that of the raw mjpeg avi file.

Now making the file better? well, err... a little out of my league here.

But here we go, don't just use TMPGEnc, if you want to create a vcd/svcd/dvd file. Framserve from Virtual dub, which will not only make the video encode faster than just straight tmpgenc, but will also allow you to customize the settings alot more using the inbuilt (or 3rd party) vdub filters...

I usually use only a small number of these filters
Crop the video
Resize the video
de-interlace the video
apply a hq smoother

Hope this helps.

[pixel]

Just chipping in my opinion on what is happening.

First of all, P3 600Mhz, I previously had a 1Ghz and still got dropped frames, so you've got no chance, anyway, why are you doing real-time full-resolution DVD captures with a P3? Your captures will be crap, capture with PICVideo MJPEG and re-encode.

128MB of RAM, you should upgrade to at least 256 MB DDR (preferrably 512 MB DDR)

You apparently only have one hard drive. You should have a dedicated capture drive (7,200 rpm) so that the OS isn't continually accessing it and causing dropped frames.

Also, make sure you open task manager and close all unnecessary prorams when capturing or encoding (spytrackers etc. if you use broadband remember to unplug your modem). This will give the card all the power it needs to capture, even I do this on my PC to ensure good captures.

Finally, upgrading to a AIW 7500 on your current PC isn't going to improve your captures alone. Your best bet is to capture in AVI and re-encode any card is good enough for this.
The AIW 7500 will really come into its own when you are doing real-time MPEG2 captures.

[TBoneit]

Pixel: I do not believe any P3 600 ever came with DDR memory, It'll most likely have Pc 100 Sdram in it.

If it were my PC I'd start off by upgrading the Motherboard, CPU & memory first. With Athlon or Pentium 4, no Celeron or Duron with DDR, forget trying to re-use the Sdram. 2 Ghz P4 or Athlon XP 2000+ at least if on a budget.

If trying to do any encoding the faster the better.

Good Luck
Roger T

[pixel]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if the P3 supported DDR memory.

I don't know if he'll want to upgrade everything because that is the priciest thing to do, maybe just try a few tweaks at the moment.

It cost me £££ to upgrade because I needed a new mobo, new cpu, new ram and new PSU. But if he chooses to upgrade he will also need another HDD.

(BTW if you do decide to upgrade, don't buy a new PC, build one yourself. This will mean you can buy the best components so that later upgrades aren't too expensive. If you by a pre-built PC you will probably find there will be little opportunity to upgrade it because it is usually cheapest components available that are used.)

On the CPU front, something I'm sure you already know but I'll just tell you anyway. P4's and AMD Athlon XP's are the best CPU's because they have advanced features to boost encoding times. Celerons and Durons are budget processors with nowhere near the capabilities of the above mentioned, but are around 4x cheaper which gives a good starting point if on a tight budget so you can later upgrade to the above mentioned.

[txpharoah]

Generally speaking, the PIII systems are too slow for MPEG capturing.

While an ATI does have hardware-assisted MPEG encoding, software still does some of the encoding. It's only assisted by hardware. This doesn't mean it's bad, it was just made for P4 (and AMD approximate) computers.

With a PIII machine, try to lower the motion estimation, do not capture deinterlaced MPEG2, do not capture 720x480 (352x480 is suggested anyway), and lower the GOP IPB frames (as I hear this works too).

You can grab a budget-priced motherboard and processor, by a stick of DDR RAM that's on sale, and salvage the rest from your current system, probably for under $100, maybe as low as $75.

[pixel]

You can grab a budget-priced motherboard and processor, by a stick of DDR RAM that's on sale, and salvage the rest from your current system, probably for under $100, maybe as low as $75.

You can't be serious, can you? That's about £65 here. My mobo alone was £100 ($130 roughly) but I guess you get what you pay for.

[TBoneit]

True, If you buy a Motherboard, buy a P4 mobo that supportys the newest 800 FSB, Likewise for the AMD (333 or 400?), Then if budget bound buy the Duron or Celeron until you can afford the FUll power CPU.

I forgot that if you go P4 you will need to go to a new power supply and nwant at least 300watt PS for the Athlon, but 400 would be better. I'd bet that the P3 has a 200 to 250 watt PS in it.

It's almost the same cost around here to buy a new case with 400 watt P4 & AMD ready PS.

Look for one with pleanty of expansion, I have seen (Sell at work) even our cheapest case has 10 drive bays room for 3 cooling fans and a 350Watt PS. There are others out there that hold 7 drives and 1 cooling fan, avoid those. The case to look for should have at least one coolling fan in the lower front tha blows cooling air over the hard disk drives (the front fans colling my drives are on low speed setting to reduce noise and because I run a P4), and at least one in the back near the top blowing out the heated air. Some even have a temperature guage in the front of the case, could be needed if AMD athlon.

the case I use Lian Li holds 12 drives, aluminum, all thumb screws and the Mobo slides out for easy upgrading, the 3.5 drive bays all slide out for easy upgrading. I do lots of changes to my system, so that's why the fancy case. If you think you will be doing lost of changes look for easy to change and a good case will also be easier to do because it is a precision fit for all the parts.

One thing I believe is don't overclock, it'll run cooler and likely be more stable, and buy the retail pack CPU with the three year manufacturers warranty. YMMV

Good Luck
Roger T

[pixel]

Very true, TBoneit. But you could probably just pick up a new PSU and put it in your PC case to save money (Over here a cheap one is about £25 ($30) with 2 fans, I use one of these and it keeps my PC cooler than my PC was with my P3).

[antonv]

There is no problem with my hardware. First, some think all PIII 600s are too slow because most people do not know there is ASUS CUSL2 motherboard which is 1.5 times faster then others for PIIIs. Second, My PIII600 gives no dropped frames on almost every capturing codec. It is just MPEG-2 where it gave a frame drop. Then, CUSL2 motherboard I believe has DDR memory. Finally, MPEG-2 capture on any of the ATI cards is the last choice because of its awful quality comparing to divx, huffy, and mjpeg. By the way, even though I did not want to capture to MPEG-2 in future, I found the reason of frames drop and it was not any of the hardware.

The questions were:
1) How to encode file captured with MJPEG to a any burn-ready format without getting jumpy picture i.e. using good deinterlacing program or something ?
2) Is it a big difference in quality between 352x240 resolution and year 2000 of Rage Fury Pro and 720x480 resolution with year 2002 ATI AIW 7500 ?

Thank you in advance.

[pixel]

It is your P3 that is causing the dropped frames. MPEG2 is the most CPU intensive video format for capturing. That is why some people only recommend the P4 that support 800MHz FSB with hyper-threading for real-time MPEG2 capture.

Now to your questions:

1. Use TMPGEnc, frameserve from Virtualdub (visit the guides section for frameserving). If the resolution is more than 352x288 swap the field order that has been automatically selected in TMPGEnc (this will get rid of jumpiness, it is a common field order issue when re-encoding captured video from ATI cards.
2. Yes the resolutions are very different. The Rage Fury Pro at 352x240 is VCD resolution, whilst with the ATI AIW 7500 at 720x480 is full DVD resolution. If you are asking what capture card is better to use it is the AIW 7500.

[antonv]

Thank you very much for your response.
I followed your directions and made a test with 2 files:
1) MPEG-2 File with 640x240 resolution
2) MJPEG file with 720x480 resolution
I frameserved files to TMPGEnc and encoded the files.
The first file, by the way, gave "file not supported" error in TMPGEnc if inserting directly even with MPEG-2 plug-in set to highest priority.
The results were:
MPEG-2 file was jumpy playing on the computer and DVD.
MJPEG file played fine on the computer (the odd/even lines could still be notisable) but played jumpy on DVD player.
I tried to change fields in TMPGEnc (From A to B) and add fields swap filter in Virtualdub, but with same result.

Is it any option I missed with swapping fields while frameserving Or I did something wrong ?

Thank you in advance.

[pixel]

I can't really help you after that. I don't know whats going wrong.

@the TMPGEnc issue, some decoders do not work properly with TMPGEnc, try a different codec, or use DVD2AVI.

The issue with the MPEG2 file being jumpy on the computer gives me the idea that it is not a field order issue (computers play interlaced files with the incorrect field order okay.)

What to do is try this guide: www.lordsmurf.com if it doesn't work ok it is probably the drivers for your card.

If that guide fails there are a few guys who are specialists in ATI cards (especially the 7500). You might want to PM or email them.

They are txpharoah (knows a lot about ATI), lordsmurf (knows a lot about diagnosing problems with ATI's), and mastersmurfie (I don't think he's online a lot but he knows his stuff).

[antonv]

Thank you for your response.
The frame serving really helped a lot. I just made more tests with MPEG-2 file. I compared the video playing file directly from TV-Out to TV and the file encoded and burnt to CD playing on DVD player. The file on computer plays fine without any jumps at all. The encoded video is still a little bit jumpy, but it is nothing compared to what it was. What it means is that there is no problem with capturing and there are some more options that have to be used while going through the process of encoding. Is it any way to get rid of this minor problem ?

Also, I want to clerify what happens with MJPEG captured files. In any capturing program with any codec (except MPEGs) and capturing resolution height>240 (i.e. 352x480) (with height<=240 i.e. 640x240 there is no such a problem, everything is fine) the resulting file has normal motion but seems interlaced, with lines going through the picture. Whatever I try in order to encode it, afterall, it still stays the same. On DVD-player it obviously plays jumpy. Is it any way to encode it in order for it not to have this visible lines ? (In that case, I think, DVD will also play it normally)

Thank you in advance.

[pixel]

I do not really know any other tips to help minimise the jumpiness. It could be you are recording from a macrovisioned source (pre-recorded VHS tape or commercial DVD) but it seems unlikely. If your source is jumpy (I'm sure you would have noticed it if it was) you can invest in a TBC, I personally don't use one because most of my recordings are fairly recent, but people like lordsmurf stick by them (be warned: they are expensive).

(One last note. I hope you aren't using an inverse-telecine in TMPGEnc because this could cause jumpiness)

You will probably have to wait for a reply from txpharoah as he will probably have some knowledge on correcting your problem.

As for the lines, these are normal artifacts of interlacing. They are seen on your PC but not on your TV because your monitor has a higher refresh rate than your TV. If you do a de-interlace during capture this will remove them and the videos will play on your DVD player, but if yout final output is going to be watched on your TV, leave it interlaced.

(I hope you had a quick look at lordsmurfs guide. You can take the bits out of it that you need for during encoding.)