SCREENERS - are they automatic warez?

[housepig]

okay, first read THIS THREAD where we got off track on the original question.

per suggestion, I'm opening up a new thread to discuss.

To sum up - someone mentioned they had an Academy screener, which they claim to have obtained legally. Others disputed the claim, and asserted that most screeners are obtained by illicit means and are therefore warez.

I countered that there are legitimate ways to get a screener - I have one, it was given to me from a friend who has studio connections. Since it's only prohibitions are sale or rent, and since it was given to me, I don't feel I'm in illegal possession of it, even though I wasn't on a distro list for it originally.

So my point would be, unless someone explicitly admits to getting a screener illegally (ie "I just downloaded a screener of The Hulk"), we should assume the same positive intent that we would assume for someone asking a question about Maestro, SpruceUp or Scenarist.

Since I didn't get the firm ruling from any mods in the original thread, I'm putting this out for discussion here.

Thoughts?

[pacmania_2001]

This is opening a whole boatload of trouble.

If we allow recognition that a screener can be legally obtained we are opening a pandora's box. Any member can claim that their copy of 'The Matrix Reloaded' or 'T3' is legal and it will stop (at least partly) any prosecution of them by a moderator.

That said, any moderator with half a clue should be able to determine if the user has the means of obtaining a legal screener (like you said, if they claimed to have downloaded it, then it will most likely be warez).

If someone claims they have a screener they obtained legally then they really shouldn't on here asking for help with it anyway. If they have the legal right to own it and it is defective (say in the case of a DVD Screener) then they should contact the movie studio and ask for a replacement. If they are trying to copy/rip/capture it then that would most likely fall into the illegal category as movie studios would generally issue a screener with the stipulation that it would not be copied, redistributed or sold in anyway, shape or form.

If those people really need help they should just phrase their question in a manner that wouldn't arise controversy (i.e dont name the movie).

These are just my current thoughts, I am open to suggestions/comments/theories to help in this matter.

[housepig]

If ... it is defective .. then they should contact the movie studio and ask for a replacement. If they are trying to copy/rip/capture it then that would most likely fall into the illegal catergory

True, I hadn't considered it from that angle... and although mine doesn't say anything about copying it (other than the usual FBI warning), it does state that it is "Property of Lion's Gate", so technically it's being lent to me, rather than given - as such, it would be like borrowing a disc from a friend and making a copy... as such, violating the Forum policy.

That's cool. This gives me the coherent argument I was looking for.

If those people really need help they should just phrase their question in a manner that wouldn't arise controversy (i.e dont name the movie).

true, true...

thanks for the input.

[Baldrick]

Please post feedback in our FEEDBACK forum. I' moving this one.

[BJ_M]

i do get screeners legally because of my membership in various org's and also as samples and varous other legal reasons ..

in MOST cases if it is for academy voting or a major studio release , i am expressly forbidden to sell , rent , LEND or other distribute it in any way -- in some cases they have serial numbers and in other cases I'm supposed to do other things after viewing.

In ALL cases I am not allowed to sell or rent it or make copies for friends -etc.... I suppose after x years they become collector items and then its a grey area....

Anyway - thats the rules ... if someone gives you a "screener" , it didn't come through legal channels 99% of the time ..

[mysticgohan17]

i do get screeners legally because of my membership in various org's and also as samples and varous other legal reasons ..

in MOST cases if it is for academy voting or a major studio release

you have a say in what movies are released? how did "from justin to kelly" happen? :P

do you give the screeners back when done screening?

[lordsmurf]

I get a lot of screeners too. These are always part of a promo packet full of photos/etc, and you are supposed to return or otherwise dispose of the video when done. This is now replacing free movie tickets and the old "erasable" VHS (which was just a magnet in the tape to erase it as it played). And even then, only the receiver is allowed to ever have the movie. I work in news. Every now and then I do movie/music reviews for the paper. We get them all the time, every single day. Movies, videos, CDs, etc. If I were to take them home for myself, it would technically be illegal. It is supposed to be reviewed, then destroyed/returned. They belong to the studios and often have ID marks on the disc, in the video, on the case, etc. Most newspapers let the movies/CDs/etc walk away with employees, because they are not needed after we review them. Some pieces that really suck (lots of music especially) really do end up in the dumpster. Disney and Warner Brothers have demanded items be returned before (and we expect THEM to pay return shipping). As far as I know, it's a gray area that isn't talked about, and I've yet to see a news organization sued over it (though individuals are, most recently the HULK workprint that was leaked). As far as these forums go, this is all a warez conversation. The only legal thing that can be discussed, as pertaining to a screener, is that you have REVIEWED it, and then give an opinion. That's about all. Ripping/copying/backing up/etc all violates the license on the piece.

[mysticgohan17]

I believe the divx/xvid-to-(s)vcd guides should be removed. its nice to know but most divx/xvid files are warez. almost every topic im this forum that relates to the p2p software is breaking the rules

Do NOT provide information how to obtain warez.

Every news thread in someway mentions you can download movies and music from kazaa.

And other threads advocating the evasion of a lawsuit.

Electronic Foundier Foundation (EFF) has posted information on their website how you can lower the chances that you get sued by the RIAA. The RIAA is currently in process of getting adresses of ISPs and uses software to scan file sharing networks. The EFF predicts that users who are not functioning as supernode on the KaZaA network are in less risk of getting sued.

The RIAA appears to be targeting subpoenas at users who allow their computers to be "Supernodes" on the FastTrack P2P System (used, for instance, by KaZaA and Morpheus). In order to further reduce the risk of having your ISP subpoenaed or of being sued yourself, we recommend that you make sure your computer is not being used as a Supernode. To learn more about Supernodes and how to make sure your computer is not one, look here: http://www.whtvcable.com/fasttrack and http://helpdesk.princeton.edu/kb/display.plx?ID=9245. See also Disabling the Supernode function with KaZaA (PDF 331k).

Rules are getting bent and broken left and right and nothing happens. The role these topics play in this forum should be equal the role politics plays in this forum. None.

No warez.
No politics.
No religion.

[pacmania_2001]

Every news thread in someway mentions you can download movies and music from kazaa.

So would you suggest a website like CNN.com / Yahoo.com get also shut down seeing their articles also proclaim that filesharing software like Kazaa can be used to download movies?

I believe the divx/xvid-to-(s)vcd guides should be removed. its nice to know but most divx/xvid files are warez.

Keyword: most. A large majority of DivX/Xvid files are of a legal nature. It's like taking down a guide to chemistry because someone may use it to create a bomb.

Moderators/Admin will act whenever their is a clear case of a subject being illegal. If it is somewhat ambigious like someone needing help with a downloaded divx file (not naming the file) then we can't act.

[onerag9]

As a video-store employee, i can attest that screeners can be obtained without illicit means. The manager of the stores gives the screeners to the employees, pretty much on a first-come, first-serve basis. Right now, i'm sitting here looking at the DVD Screener for "Willard," which i just got last night without doing anything illegal. Granted, some people may obtain their screeners through methods that the rest of us might frown upon, but i don't think it should automatically be assumed that screeners are "warez".

[housepig]

@onerag -

Granted, some people may obtain their screeners through methods that the rest of us might frown upon, but i don't think it should automatically be assumed that screeners are "warez".

except for the fact that, since they are still the property of the studio, they aren't your property, so if someone is posting on how to back up a screener, it's the same IP violation as someone borrowing movies from a friend and copying them, or copying rental discs.

This was the salient point of pacmania's argument for me... we can come on here and talk about the screeners we've seen all we want, but as soon as we say "I'm having trouble burning this screener", all bets are off.

@Mysticgohan -

I can go to The Internet Moving Picture Archive and download divx files that are perfectly legal - over 1,200 movies. I can go on KaZaa and find stuff that is legal to distribute, in the divx format. Hell, TGPO posts links to his movies in divx.

So again, the argument that "most divx is illegal" or "most downloads are illegal"... well, maybe. But do you really want a blanket statement on it? I prefer the "don't ask, don't tell" policy we've been following. If someone is too stupid to replace "I have this divx rip of The Hulk" with "I have this divx file", then they should be reported / flamed / warned etc..

But as I keep maintaining... if we're going to go your route, let's start with the posters for Maestro and Scenarist and let them post copies of thier dongles before they ask a question...

[snowmoon]

Screeners are property of the studio and cannot be backed up, so anyone trying to do so is making warez and is an AUP violation.

I have several hundred SVCD/VCD/Xvid\D files that I have created myself from either original materal or taped off TV ( psuedo PVR setup ). So I would argue that my use of the forum and these guides is 100% legal. I have also helped people backup childrens materal to disc so that when the kids distroy it, they just make another.

@housepig

But as I keep maintaining... if we're going to go your route, let's start with the posters for Maestro and Scenarist

I have reportd and warned many people who wanted these software titles. Many people forget that copyright does not expire when a company stops producing a product. I would argue that morally they should, but it's still an asset of the former company whome if free to dispoce of it in any manner they wish. I have usually come done lighter on these people than I should, but anyone I see gets a warning.

[tgpo]

TGPO posts links to his movies in divx.

I also have posted VCD versions of them. Many people use VCD formatted movies to exchange warez, but I use it in a legal way. The problem is that not everything can be cut right down the line as legal/illegl. There is grey area that must be remembered. Or else no one will be able to watch my movies . Hmmmmm.. I wonder if there are copies of Kung Fu floating around the net and P2P servers....maybe I should start putting my name on those things

[housepig]

Hmmmmm.. I wonder if there are copies of Kung Fu floating around the net and P2P servers....maybe I should start putting my name on those things

I've been putting them on dvd and selling them down at the flea market!

so far it's netted me $0.37!

[SLICK RICK]

I've been putting them on dvd and selling them down at the flea market!

so far it's netted me $0.37!

Housepig, do you need a partner, I see potential to make millions there.

SLICK RICK

[housepig]

Housepig, do you need a partner, I see potential to make millions there.

you sure you don't mean lose millions?

[Raen]

From a legal stand point its perfectly legal to own a screener copy. Recieving one has NO criminal or civil liablilities. Period. Anyone who argues differently just doesn't know what he's talking about.

However the person that gave it out may be liable for civil actions(sued.) The only criminal offenses that can come from screeners is if it's copied and distributed or sold for profit. There is no criminal offense if someone GIVES a screener to a friend. The worse that could happen is the giver(and NEVER the reciever) can get sued for breech of contract. All this talk of 'illegal' and 'legal' is nonsense. Its a buncha people throwing around words that they don't know the meaning of the words. Breaking a contract, which is what accepting a screener and giving it away usually is, is not a criminal offense at all. Someone in the other post said that merely having the screener was illegal and I want to point out that is 100% wrong. Ownership of a screener is legal, even if you bought it off ebay or off the streets. Its only illegal to sell or distribute. Owning isn't illegal, never has been

[tgpo]

you sure you don't mean lose millions?

Hey Hey!!

The budget for Kung Fu 2 was only $10.

[ebenton]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what category the DVDs fall into that the troops over in Kuwait and Iraq watch. I have two daughters in the Marine Corps. Both have been stationed in Kuwait. One is still there. Both have already seen all of the first-run movies that have been in the theaters this summer, sometimes only a week after they debuted here in the USA. They viewed these from DVDs on computer screens or with video projectors connected to a computer. I didn't ask if the words, "For your consideration" appeared in the bottom corner of the screen. I wonder if these are screeners or some other category. Would the giver of these DVDs be subject to prosecution?

[tgpo]

Would the giver of these DVDs be subject to prosecution?

MPAA president Jack Velenti(sp?) is a war vet. I bet he saw to it that they got to see the movies they were missing while they were doing their service to our country. I'm just sorry that 98% of all those movies suck :P

[Tearren]

Raen,

I take "owning" to actaully mean "be in position of". In that case, in the USA, it is illegal to own some items, such as drugs in addition to beer and liquor if your are under the age of 21 in some states. Also, it is illegal to own stolen goods.

Where you dozing in your legal class?

Tearren

[BJ_M]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what category the DVDs fall into that the troops over in Kuwait and Iraq watch. I have two daughters in the Marine Corps. Both have been stationed in Kuwait. One is still there. Both have already seen all of the first-run movies that have been in the theaters this summer, sometimes only a week after they debuted here in the USA. They viewed these from DVDs on computer screens or with video projectors connected to a computer. I didn't ask if the words, "For your consideration" appeared in the bottom corner of the screen. I wonder if these are screeners or some other category. Would the giver of these DVDs be subject to prosecution?

They got some nice fast fat pipes ...


seriously , there is a different distribution deal for armed forces and the "hollywood" infrastructure .. whom together have had a close working relationship for many many years.

[Raen]

Under the law ownership of bootlegged material isn't considered 'stolen property.'

Screeners aren't rented out, they are given out, studios dont expect them back. Under the law they being in possession of one isn't considered 'stolen goods.'

[lordsmurf]

aren't rented out, they are given out,

Actually, both of these are incorrect. They are neither rented nor given. They always have been, and shall always remain, the property of the studio. It says "Property of _____ Studio" all over the place. I've got a few here on the shelf that I've reviewed in the past.

Studios can, and have been known to, request return of the screener. I remember it was Fantasia 2000 that came with a return Fedex envelope some years back. Disney wanted to make sure we didn't have it. It was an EP mode VHS tape too, I guess to make sure quality wouldn't be utterly perfect for copying. These things normally come in plain black cases slathered with studio warnings.

The only person legally able to "give out" (technically referred to as distribution) is the studio itself. As soon as it leaves the hands of the studio's recipient, it can be classified as illegal possession. After all, they never approved of your friend/family watching it, just you. They're meant for business use. I work at a newspaper. We review movies. That's the only reason we get them, not so our friends can see them. They want our friends to pay at the theatre like everybody else, and then buy the official releases like everybody else. And I only review a few movies at any time. So I don't get to see all the screeners, nor should I. I actually do more music than video.

I don't see how "stolen" has anything to do with "illegal possession".

Hollywood's always given out movies to soldiers during the war. In fact, today, one of the greatest actors of all time, a staunch supporter of this program and I believe one of the guys that helped to start it, died. Mr. Bob Hope. Rest in peace, big guy.

I'm sure I could post a bunch of studio phone numbers, and contact names, if you'd like to call and ask about the legalities. I'm sure they'd know better than me, but I don't think their answer will be any different than mine or BJ_M's.

[Raen]

In the eyes of the law its not illegal. I've done much research on this.. You cant be arrested or fined for it. Its not considered a criminal act. Its considered a civil one, not only that but the reciever can't be liable for the act at all, only the giver.

The only criminal offense when considering screeners(and alike) is the distrubution or sale of them. Everything else is considered civil action.

So owning a screener is not, nor has ever been illegal. However copying or selling it is.

The 'property of studio xxxx' is considered a contractional agreement in the eyes of the law. Its not illegal to break a contract, but it can/is a civil matter.


Prove me wrong.. show me a case someone ONLY owning a screener was fined or jailed. You can't, because only distribution/sale is a criminal act

[BJ_M]

Under the law ownership of bootlegged material isn't considered 'stolen property.'

Screeners aren't rented out, they are given out, studios dont expect them back. Under the law they being in possession of one isn't considered 'stolen goods.'

not true .. many are supposed to be returned , in the case of work prints used for dubbing and (in the case the hulk) advertising , must be destroyed or returned ..

[Raen]

Under the law ownership of bootlegged material isn't considered 'stolen property.'

Screeners aren't rented out, they are given out, studios dont expect them back. Under the law they being in possession of one isn't considered 'stolen goods.'

not true .. many are supposed to be returned , in the case of work prints used for dubbing and (in the case the hulk) advertising , must be destroyed or returned ..

And again that's consider a contractional agreement. Breaking a contract isn't an illegal act.

[Nolonemo]

Seems to me, as long as we're talking about warez, that if you make a backup copy of the DVD movie you bought, you're creating warez, because the act of making the copy was illegal (a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act that makes using a tool to break the encryption on the disk illegal). (Please, no comments about "fair use" - at present, and until the Supreme Court gets into the act, making a backup is illegal) (unless you tape a copy off your TV screen)

[BJ_M]

i don't know the laws (i admit) , but i do know that many of us are not in the usa .. and such laws are different ..

[stiltman]

Seems to me, as long as we're talking about warez, that if you make a backup copy of the DVD movie you bought, you're creating warez, because the act of making the copy was illegal (a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act that makes using a tool to break the encryption on the disk illegal). (Please, no comments about "fair use" - at present, and until the Supreme Court gets into the act, making a backup is illegal) (unless you tape a copy off your TV screen)

How does this apply to people outside the US?
Didn't Adobe face this same problem?