Preserving DV footage to DVD

[tinman]

I have some DV footage that I want to transfer to optical. My only purpose at this time is to simply have as good a copy as possible on optical to preserve the footage on optical media (something other than tape). I simply want to make as high a quality copy as possible in order to have a copy as close to the original as possible on optical disk/DVD.

I have used TMPGEnc high quality settings found on this site to make the video. It looks great. My question is with audio (although I am open to any suggestions that improve further on video quality as well.

I have been unable to find an tool that will read the PCM audio track out of the DV AVI file I have captured to disk and turn it into the required 48 KHz, 16-bit required for a DVD burn. I have read through a great deal of posts and see a lot about audio format conversion, sync problems, but I haven't found a post regarding conversion to DV PCM (which as far as I can tell is 32 KHz, 16-bit), to DVD complian PCM (48KHz, 16-bit PCM).

So far ,all I can do to get a successful set of files is to run the entire DV AVI file through TMPGEnc (both video and audio) and this works, but I see statements all over the place that TMPGEnc doesn't to a great job with audio resampling (or is that only when going to MPEG Layer II audio with TMPGEnc? <-- this is unclear.)

Does TMPGEnc do a "no so great job" at audio regardless of format, meaning when encoding/resampling to produce either a PCM file or MPEG Layer II? Or are the statements in the FAQ about how to setup TMPGEnc really aimed at using TMPGEnc to produce an MPEG Layer II audio file/stream? Do the same quality issues arise when simply using TMPGEnc to produce a PCM audio stream?

I'd also be interested in hearing any issues anyone wants to point out when resampling from a lower rate (32 KHz) to and higher one (48 KHz) in order to produce the DVD compliant PCM audio stream.

Thanks to anyone who tosses back replies to this!

[MpegEncoder]

I think that most peoples complaints about TMPGEnc audio conversion is because the fail to set it to "High Quality" mode. Don't forget that any tool that has to sample up from 32k to 44.1k or 48k is going to suffer a little. VirtualDub can extract the audio if you capture your DV as type-2.

What are you using to capture your DV to disk?

[holistic]

Here is your problem ........

I simply want to make as high a quality copy as possible in order to have a copy as close to the original

At about a dollar a DVD blank you would be wise to save your video to disk in its' original DV format - 20 minutes at a time.

Other than that choose a high (8000+) constant bitrate and maybe a smaller GOP with more I frames if in case you have a need to edit the video later. (mpeg2 is not designed for editing)

][

[tinman]

I think that most peoples complaints about TMPGEnc audio conversion is because the fail to set it to "High Quality" mode. Don't forget that any tool that has to sample up from 32k to 44.1k or 48k is going to suffer a little. VirtualDub can extract the audio if you capture your DV as type-2.

What are you using to capture your DV to disk?

I am simply using Microsoft Movie Maker with XP to pull of the raw DV info. I haven't found much difference between programs that do capture with DV since it's already digital. With the excpetion of what you mention - apparently there are apps that let you capture it to one of the two different DV types. I read about that, but am fuzzy on the difference or advantages between one type of DV file (type 1) or the other (type 2) or what most programs capture to by default. I did that reading a while go and my buffer got full.

[tinman]

Here is your problem ........

I simply want to make as high a quality copy as possible in order to have a copy as close to the original

At about a dollar a DVD blank you would be wise to save your video to disk in its' original DV format - 20 minutes at a time.

Other than that choose a high (8000+) constant bitrate and maybe a smaller GOP with more I frames if in case you have a need to edit the video later. (mpeg2 is not designed for editing)

][

Yes, I had thought of this. I'm at a point in life where I'm willing to wait for technology that makes it magnatudes easier for me as long as it is not so far into the future that I completely risk my tapes going bad on the shelf (quite a few more years).

In this case, I'm going to wait out the multi-layer DVD burners that should eventually come out. The I can burn the raw DV data/footage to a multi-layer DVD for complete preservation of the original.

Good catch and thanks. I'm just going to wait on the technology for that because it will be easier to burn the single 13.5 GB file to a single DVD in the future. Shouldn't be too far away...right?

[cplevel42]

Don't count on a multi layer recordable dvd-R anytime soon. Blue Ray is here but way too expensive for both the system and blanks. Not to mention that blue ray discs will only play in blue ray players. Blue Ray players will not be common in households for many years to come.

Get a DVD-R burner now and buy some cheap 1$ Riteks. If you wait on some miricle technology, you'll be waiting a long time. Too long!

[You_Are_Alive]

Here's some friendly advice, I don't know who or why you think this is necessary, but the fact is that your mini dv tape will last much longer and retain its quality if properly stored. Way, way better than to transfer to dvd, or any other matter. You lose either way. Be smart, and leave it alone. You won't see any differences in quality for years, and that's a fact. If after 5 or 6 years you are still itching, maybe technology will offer some other tool, but even then, your tape can still last alot longer.

Tip: if you still don't believe that tape is better for achive than dvd, at least transfer over to a huge disk drive instead, its more efficient and practical.

I wish ppl would understand that tape is still an "excellent" archive tool. NO need to go to dvd to archive stuff. You lose quality, convenience, and ability to re-edit from your best source, if necessary. Not worth it.

[FulciLives]

I would try to save the DV over several DVD-R discs. But remember one hour of DV is about 13 to 15GB so a single 60 minute DV tape will require 4 DVD-R discs.

The other option is to encode the DV into MPEG-4 rather than MPEG-2. I would use the newest version of DivX and use the 1-pass quality based 100% quality setting. I would not select any of the so-called "Pro" features (such as GMC or B-Frames) and no pychovisual garbage.

This will give you a VERY high quality copy that will be much easier to edit and manipulate in general than MPEG-2. Also you should be able to get one whole 60 minute tape on a single DVD-R discs instead of 4 DVD-R discs if you simply back up the DV source.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[i_am_dave]

I would try to save the DV over several DVD-R discs. But remember one hour of DV is about 13 to 15GB so a single 60 minute DV tape will require 4 DVD-R discs.

One DV tape = $7.00
Four DVD-R discs = $4.00

This is one reason I archive to DVD..... Getting cheaper by the day!

[racer-x]

I just bought a ten-pack of Sony 60 min Mini-DV tapes for $31.99 US. I use DVD+R @ $1.50 each, so Tapes are still cheaper for now.

After I edit the DV-AVI, I output one copy back to DV-AVI so I can transfer back to tape for back-up. Usually 1 hour of raw DV will end up 20 - 30 min of edited video. And ofcourse I also encode one copy to MPG-2 to make DVD.

[i_am_dave]

I just bought a ten-pack of Sony 60 min Mini-DV tapes for $31.99 US. I use DVD+R @ $1.50 each, so Tapes are still cheaper for now.

Where? I've been paying $19.97 for a 3-pack at Wal-Mart.

Man, I've been getting screwed!

[racer-x]

I bought the tapes at ecost.com.
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=965136

They also have TDK ten-packs for $24.99.

[tinman]

Here's some friendly advice, I don't know who or why you think this is necessary, but the fact is that your mini dv tape will last much longer and retain its quality if properly stored. Way, way better than to transfer to dvd, or any other matter. You lose either way. Be smart, and leave it alone. You won't see any differences in quality for years, and that's a fact. If after 5 or 6 years you are still itching, maybe technology will offer some other tool, but even then, your tape can still last alot longer.

Tip: if you still don't believe that tape is better for achive than dvd, at least transfer over to a huge disk drive instead, its more efficient and practical.

I wish ppl would understand that tape is still an "excellent" archive tool. NO need to go to dvd to archive stuff. You lose quality, convenience, and ability to re-edit from your best source, if necessary. Not worth it.

I have quite a few reasons I am going to DVD. Yes, tape is a good archive medium. It will not be replaced any time soon. But it is not good for random access or repeated playback. I intend to distribute copies of these DVD's to family as well. Automatick backup per se. Everyone in the family has a copy, my house burns, everything is ok. I still have the footage. Is DVD (MPEG 2) good to work with to edit as opposed to the raw DV footage? No. My goal is not to re-edit. Just to have the raw footage in an easily accessible form that others can view that also serves as the best copy I can possibly get *if* something bad were to happen. If I simply wanted a backup only, I'd just copy to another DV tape again. That is not my sole interest in this case.

So, any other suggestion on the core question in my post? -- How to get that audio from the DV PCM format to the DVD required 48 KHz format in the best possible way with the best quality? The first few posts were very helpful. I have set TMPGEnc in High Quality mode for audio and it came out very good (in my opinion). I may just settle on that solution. I'm open to other suggestions about how to handle the audio extraction from a DV AVI file. I admit I don't know much about the difference between DV AVI files of type 1 and 2 and how having it in one form or the other would make it easier to get the audio out in as good a quality as possible.

More reply on the response quoted above - I don't know who these "people" are you are refering to but I just love it when folks like yourself come back with an (implied) attitude of "you people are stupid". I am well aware of tape pros and cons. I'm actually the architect for a data center in a large company - I'll leave it at that (I probably shouldn't even have said it, it will just cause me grief). Believe me, I understand where tape fits into data storage, migration, offline, nearline, HSM environments, shelf life, DR, Busines Continuance, etc.

I'm interested in DVD because these so called "archive copies" will be used/viewed. In that sense, I'm not using it in the strictest sense of "archive". In that environment (playback/random access), tape doesn't fit as well. The average joe (especially a family member) will not clean their tape heads, nor will they store it in an appropriate environment. To add to it, none of them have DV cameras/tape players to play them back on. Maybe I should have been even more specific. I though I have adequate info on the core issue of extracting/converting the audio, which is what I'm really after.

I really wish that folks replying could apply the same recommendations that these forums give to people asking questions (starting a post) such as stick to the point or problem being asked. I'm counting the posts and I don't see to many that deal with my actual question of reproducing the audio effectively. I certainly see a lot of armchair quarterbacking about why I even want to do what I'm bothering to do. I have my reasons, they make sense in my environment, for my requirements. I do appreciate all the folks responding with good intentions. You are truely helpful in your suggestions and I greatly apprecate how online communities come together to help each other...Thanks!

[Baldrick]

Please try post in correct forum. I'm moving this one.

[racer-x]

Here's a tip: If you set the audio in the DV-Cam to 12 bit mode, it will produce 32 KHZ audio. If you set the mode to 16 bit, it will produce 48 KHZ audio. This is what I set mine to. It's better audio and doesn't need resampling when coverted to DVD-spec MPG-2.

If you use separate streams (video & audio) and the audio goes to PCM, I think TMPGenc should be fine.

[tinman]

Here's a tip: If you set the audio in the DV-Cam to 12 bit mode, it will produce 32 KHZ audio. If you set the mode to 16 bit, it will produce 48 KHZ audio. This is what I set mine to. It's better audio and doesn't need resampling when coverted to DVD-spec MPG-2.

If you use separate streams (video & audio) and the audio goes to PCM, I think TMPGenc should be fine.

Cool. This is very useful. I'll check my camcorder for that setting. That makes total sense to have it record/encode audio at the sampling rate that you already need for a DVD (48 KHz/16-bit). Do you know if it generally has any impact on tape capacity? Will I still get an hour on average out of a standard 60 minute DV tape? And if so, then I gotta ask myself why in the world would Sony or whoever makes camcorders gives you the option for lesser quality sound if there is no impact to tape capacity from the user's perspective???

[holistic]

.....why in the world would Sony or whoever makes camcorders gives you the option for lesser quality sound if there is no impact to tape capacity.........

Audio Dub is possible when the tape is recorded in the 32kHz/12-bit mode.

Or so the manual for my camera says - never tried it - always use 48/16

Good for those without computers and all they want is possible voice overs !

][

[LetsRip]

As mentioned by racer-x, I've also set my D8 camcorder to 16-bit audio to avoid the conversion issue. According to my Sony manual, the only impact is the AudioMix feature is essentially disabled, since one rather than two stereo audio streams are created. Why would someone want two stereo channels -- I don't know, they don't explain further, other than to mention you can control the balance between the channels only when recording or using pass-through in 12-bit mode.

As per your question dealing with audio encoding, I've been quite miffed by this myself. One of my personal requirements is to get 90 min of decent audio & video on a single DVD-R. The suggestion to 'span' your AVI over umteen DVDs is, well, not for me . Putting PCM/WAV audio on a DVD is not practical due to space. I've tried Toolame, Besweet, and CCE for WAV to MPEG audio encoding, and when set to DVD compliant settings, I really can't tell a difference between them (maybe I need to get a set of $2k Polk speakers) .

My current pursuit is a decent AC-3 audio encoder, since MPEG is not considered a 'true' NTSC audio encoding method, though is does work on a number of DVD players. I've tried Besweet AC-3, but so far I haven't had good success playing on my Pioneer DVD player. I'm hoping to try neoDVDplus one of these days (I hear version 5 is around the corner), since it is supposed to have a decent AC-3 encoder and costs under $50.

BTW people -- there is a great feature called 'personal message' to confer with each other regarding off-topic issues...

[energy80s]

If you simply want a backup copy of your minidv tape then load all the footage onto your hard drive and output it back to the camera but onto a seperate DV tape. This is way better than DVDR. If you want to have it as a "rushes" disc, then you will have to encode to basic DVD standards, knowing that you will never have a better quality version in the future (at least from that disc).

As for your audio problem. Extract the wav from the DV file and upsample with a proper audio editing programme (like Cool Edit Pro) then feed this into TMPG as the audio source and use your DV avi as the video source. As long as you haven't changed the length of either file, they will both stay in sync. For future reference, ALWAYS record audio at 48k sampling as this is compatible with all PC editing/rendering software.

[turk690]

According to my Sony manual, the only impact is the AudioMix feature is essentially disabled, since one rather than two stereo audio streams are created. Why would someone want two stereo channels -- I don't know, they don't explain further, other than to mention you can control the balance between the channels only when recording or using pass-through in 12-bit mode.

Some digital camcorder owners prefer to do in-camera audio editing. When choosing 12bit/32KHz mode two stereo audio streams are created while shooting, one of which will quite naturally contain the audio picked up by the camcorder mics. The other is empty, which is again available for dubbing when same tape or segment of tape is played back, depending on how sophisticated the camcorder is, with audio from again the camcorder mics or line-in. You did note that the balance between the two stereo tracks can be controlled so that the resulting audio line-out on playback of the edited tape can have only track-1 or -2 or a mix of both at some level. This is like a more uppity version of some hi-fi stereo VHS VCRs where one can dub onto the normal audio track while playing the tape back and listening to the hi-fi track. AFAIK, capturing a DV or D8 tape to a DV AVI file through FireWire will pick up just one of the two tracks but who cares when one can do much more with audio on even an entry-level NLE program?

[nufan292]

I don't know if this will work, but just a suggestion. Others have said why not split up the DV video over several DVDs. And I thought to myself, hmmm, I'm not good cutting and and re-editting back together, sometimes I have stupid little problems (remember I'm not a genius, just a normal everyday idiot). I was wondering, could you use a something like WinRAR, and compression the one large DV file, and have WinRAR split it into .rar .r00 .r01 etc. files that are the size of a DVDr? Who knows it might save some space, and when you unzip(rar) it, it will be one large DV file again. Oh course it is just a stupid idea. About the audio, has anyone tried Vegas 4.0 w/AC3 encoding, any good?

[racer-x]

tinman wrote: Do you know if it generally has any impact on tape capacity? Will I still get an hour on average out of a standard 60 minute DV tape?

No you still get 1 hour of video on your tape. The file size will be a little larger on your hard drive though. I think 3.65 MBPS vs. 3.61 MBPS for AVI type-2.

You make a valid point about distributing copies in case of fire. It makes me worried just reading it. I'm in the same boat as you as most of my DVDs were created from home video.

A while back I posted High Quality DV capture tips. You can read it here.
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=161496&highlight=

[FulciLives]

I don't know if this will work, but just a suggestion. Others have said why not split up the DV video over several DVDs. And I thought to myself, hmmm, I'm not good cutting and and re-editting back together, sometimes I have stupid little problems (remember I'm not a genius, just a normal everyday idiot). I was wondering, could you use a something like WinRAR, and compression the one large DV file, and have WinRAR split it into .rar .r00 .r01 etc. files that are the size of a DVDr? Who knows it might save some space, and when you unzip(rar) it, it will be one large DV file again. Oh course it is just a stupid idea. About the audio, has anyone tried Vegas 4.0 w/AC3 encoding, any good?

I've used WinRAR to split up an ISO image acros CD-R discs. This was once I made a DVD project but only had a CD-R burner. After creating the image I used WinRAR to split it up into 698MB chunks and ended up putting the ISO image across something like 6 CD-R discs. Then I took them to a friend's computer and copied the files back and retored my single large ISO file and used his computer (which had a DVD-R/RW buner) to create my DVD-R disc. It worked with no problems. So if you can do that with a large image file I don't see why you couldn't do it with DV and when I suggested putting it over several DVD discs I was in fact thinking of using WinRAR and should have mentioned it then.

Please note that when I did use WinRAR in this fashion I choose the archive only option vs a compression option. I think that is probably important.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[depressd]

tinman

I use an advc-100 to capture dv files. You can save the audio file seperately in Virtualdub to any format you want. I usually save it as an uncompressed pcm at 44.1. At that point you can use it independently with any other program. Have you tried this..?

[energy80s]

Use MasterSplitter to split large files. It's much quicker than WinRar as it doesn't try to compress the file first.

[Xesdeeni]

The problem with splitting programs is that it doubles your hard drive storage requirements, and it takes a while to copy gigabytes of data. PKZIP allowed you to split a file directly to multiple floppies. Does anyone know of a program that will split large files directly to CD-R?

Xesdeeni