Frustration with IC 7 (The ever famous issue with SIZE!!!!)

[jxsam1@yahoo.com]

I have noticed recently that most of the movies that I run thru IC 7 are way undersized.

All of my movies are Widescreen versions. Take for example, Equilibrium. I tried to compress through IC 7 movie only (Ran it thru DVD Shrink to get movie only) but no matter what percent compression I choose, the movie always comes out the same size. 3.2 GB or something like that. Even if I move the percentage as high as 99% still comes out 3.2 GB. I understand that is has to do the blackbars and IC 7 takes that into account when doing it's compression. But does it mean that no matter what I do to the percentage slider, the movie comes out exactly the same size every single time?

This has been happenning to me for the last few month and prior to that, I never really pay much attention. It seems like every single move (widescreen) the outcome is always the same size regardless of what I do to the slider for the percentage of quality. I've done Truth About Charlie, The Recruit, A Walk To Remeber, Equilibrium, Star Trek Nemesis. If I use 75% and then run it again at 99% the size is exactly the same.

The Recruit was done with about 75% which came out to be 3.4 GB or something so I upped the percentage to 99% and still the final size was 3.4 GB.


Can an IC 7 expert confirm on this issue that when the movie is widescreen, the percentage is pretty much useless?

EDIT: I also applied the latest IC 7 patch and it does not make any difference.

[Bhola]

Have you tried with registery hack for IC? This should give you freedom to choose any size you want. Check out DVD guide section and search for mrbass guide. -B

[jxsam1@yahoo.com]

I haven't tried the registry hack. The only reg hack that I did was for the secret menu to pick what you want to keep.

I read a couple of postings, including the one about the the DVDVideoSaveBorder (over at doom9.org forum) and most people claim that this does not do anything and it does not work so I didn't even bother.

Have you experienced the same issue? Have you dont any widescreens and regardless of your setting, the outcome is still the same size?

[Triple_Helix]

Can an IC 7 expert confirm on this issue that when the movie is widescreen, the percentage is pretty much useless?

I Don't know if there is a real expert on IC, even at Pinnacle. I can tell you, if the default player's window has 'black bars', it will seriously undersize and there is no 'fix'. That leaves 1:1.85 and 3:4 as the two aspect ratios that will report accurate file sizes. It can be argued that the other programs report inflated sizes and only IC's are correct. There is also something that gets lost in these discussions -- that is, more than a hundred A/B comparisons have shown me no evidence that IC's image quality is affected by these 'low' file sizes. It is virtually the same as DVDShrink's at a reported 4.30GB+. Do the math comparing the actual on screen image size of 1.85:1 and 2.35:1. The latter should be about 3500 MB or less.

LTA

[vance43211]

it the black bar issue

ic7 get confused on the wide widescreen

not the regular 16.9 but the newer one

the 2.35:1 ratio

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53732&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

[Nuage]

Triple_Helix, I was thinking on the same line. Even at 3.5G, IC looks better than D2O or Shrink at 4.3G.

[Bulten]

Just hit F5, and move the slider to 4.6 gb or something.
And if you still get a size you're not satisfied with, you can repeat the process and raise the slide a little bit more or lower it a little bit less. In the meanwhile, sit down and relax, read a book, there are other things in life than computers. 8)

[Triple_Helix]

Bulten wrote:

Just hit F5, and move the slider to 4.6 gb or something.
And if you still get a size you're not satisfied with, you can repeat the process and raise the slide a little bit more or lower it a little bit less. In the meanwhile, sit down and relax, read a book, there are other things in life than computers.

The first part of your post doesen't always work -- the second part works for me too!

LTA

[vance43211]

it don't work for the black bar issue

[FoolishBrett]

I don't use IC7 that often, only for movies that I want to look great.

The last one I did was T2, exactly like you have set up jsxam1; authoring/ripping with shrink, IC7 for encoding. It looks GREAT.

IC7 does seem to hit a wall at a certain point. I reran that 8 times to get the best size. Personally I wonder if using shrink first confuses IC more than usual.

Oddly enough, I have found IC to make some way to BIG, contrary to what most will say.

I've been hanging around for serveral months and have yet to see anyone really address IC sizing in an easy fashion.

[vance43211]

ic7

was the best encoding program for the last 6 months as for as quality

maybe the new dvd shrink is better

but ic7 got confused with that 2.35:1 ratio

there basically nothing u could do about it

but even at the 3.5 gig of movie that it burn

the quality was still better than the other programs

[jxsam1@yahoo.com]

Thank you all for your help but I guess some of you are missing the main issue.

The main issue is that no matter how much I move the slider to the right even up to one single tick below 100%, the size ends up the same as when done automatic or a value between automatic and 100%. I've done this for several movies at least 4 times with different quality setting (ie slider moved in different positions) and they end up with the same size all 4 times.

I'm just wondering whether this has happened to anyone on their widescreen movies.

I don't think it has anything to do with running it by DVD Shrink first to strip out extras as I've done this process without using DVD Shrink and I still get the same issue.

The slider does not seem to work at all on Widescreen movies. I wish Mackem-X or Mr Bass would contribute to this topic as they are the experts.

[Bhola]

Read mrbass's guide and use his registery hack tool your problem will go away! or wait for mrbass and Mackem-X to reply

[vance43211]

Read mrbass's guide and use his registery hack tool your problem will go away! or wait for mrbass and Mackem-X to reply

i second that notion

around here his problem is called the black bar issue

as he doesn't seem to understand that when we tell him that is the biggest problem ic7 has had and that ic7 hasn't fix that problem in none of their 3 updates

and let not give him anymore advice

since we are not the so called "experts"

[maineiac]

To answer the original question....yes I have had the same experience...in my case with the first disc of Dr. Zhivago. Even using the registry hacks and then "supposedly" increasing the size of the expected output to, in my case first 4.61GB, 4.79GB, and then 4.84GB, I get the exact same output amount...down to the last "bit." (I had reduced the size of everything but the main movie to the minimum (30%), then eliminated the french soundtrack and the music only sound track. ) The only way I could find to increase the size of the final output was to increase the size of the other video tracks on the disc and/or put back in one or the other soundtrack.

Having said all of this, however, I found the quality of the movie output to be great at all levels anyway.

[mrbass]

yes the quality is still superb even if it does come out to 3.2GB or whatever. Regardless MackemX has done the most research into this area. Read his guides about the sizing issues. Also there is a prediction calculator included with IC Hidden Settings Editor (I've never tried it myself). This is one of the reasons I stopped using IC7. The only way I'll ever use it again is for some episodic dvds (not even installed on my computer currently). But Band of Brothers which I just backed up I used dvdshrink at 10 - 15% and and totally happy with the results.
http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/

edit: I'm not an expert at all. I just try to write guides for the 'masses'. I can't hang with the big boys in many of the discussions like with Re-Authorist, docce4u, etc. I wish I could but I ain't all that bright. Forums are about using collective knowledge from many people of various levels of knowledge to solve common problems.

[vance43211]

yeah i learn a lot of dvd burning tips from this site

i post one topic about 18 months ago and then i didn't post a topic for a whole year all while reading the site and learning tips

i not an expert but i know a million dvd burning tips

we hear to help each other out

occasionally a person will ask a question on this site

and if they don't like the answer

they get attitudes or say something smart

when they should be happy that somebody is helping them out



this is still a learning process for all of us

if it wasn't for people input

i wouldn't know a thing about dvd burning

and 90% of us wouldn't have dvd burners

because last time i checked,

nobody dvd burner came bundled with dvd recording software

although some bundled software can burn dvds if u rip it first



thanks for all the help everybody

[jxsam1@yahoo.com]

Yeah.. this is a great source of information and I remember learning everything I know about VCD and SVCD through this site way back when. Now is on to DVD's. I'm surprised that so many people in my office know about this site. It wows me sometimes.

OK.. back to my topic. Thanks for all your replies. I think I'm gonna tinker around with different combos with DVD Shrink. I'll try IC 7 again but this time adding another small video track to it. Seems like this was brought up a few times that this will somehow make a difference. I'll probably rip the DVD to HD. Then use IC 7 and the reg hack to include main movie and one other video and audio track. Compress then use DVD Shrink to remove that unwanted video and audio I added to see what size it will come out. Would be interesting.

The reason why I like IC 7 and this is just purely personal opinion, is that I believe IC 7 does not randomly compresses the video. It does analysis as to where compression should take place. Unlike DVD2ONE or DVD Shrink, it probably does compression constantly throughout the movie.

[Triple_Helix]

The reason why I like IC 7 and this is just purely personal opinion, is that I believe IC 7 does not randomly compresses the video. It does analysis as to where compression should take place. Unlike DVD2ONE or DVD Shrink, it probably does compression constantly throughout the movie.

IC reencodes instead of compressing like the other programs, which is why it takes longer to process a file. One important, last point -- IC's algorithems are apparently based on 4.31 GB at about 1.85:1. To have equal quality at 2.35:1 only requires about 3.4 GB.

LTA

[jxsam1@yahoo.com]

Triple_helix

OOOOh... that's why it takes longer. I really never understood that well enough but I guess you learn something new all the time.

Thanks!

[mrbass]

it doesn't re-encode..rather it does transcoding. However, it does it differently than dvd2one, dvdshrink, dvd95copy, etc. in a sense.here's where I'm guessing..probably like a 1 pass vbr (I only say this because cce 1 pass vbr while CBR is easy to predict) is nearly impossible to predict . It's been awhile since I read all those transcoding algorithms and they flew way over my head.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&threadid=44321

If it were an encoder? Why is the original GOP structure kept intact? Where is the demuxing and muxing?

[Triple_Helix]

it doesn't re-encode..rather it does transcoding.

You have my respect for all the work you have done on your guides and tutorials, but you're wrong.
Vejita-sama say it best in another post:

Generally speaking yes. IC is a re-encoder, while DVD2One and DVD Shrink are transcoders. Re-encoding should always produce superior quaility to transcoding. Point of fact, for the 'best' results you should re-encode with either TMPGenc or CCE, as the IC encoder isn't all that good

LTA

[MackemX]

as answered above

I ain't no expert, just someone who thinks he knows IC inside out 8)

(a post from me a few months ago HERE, notice how 'expert' I am then)

Joking aside, I am yet to get a 2.35:1 film to within 5% of what was actually predicted. Films like Titanic etc I can get 4.37Gb but that's cos the original filesize is so large to begin with

DVD95Copy & DVDShrink do great jobs on these types of movies anyway cos they look like they save most of the space from the black bars anyway

p.s. personally for me the 3.4Gb 2.35:1 movie-only file is inferior quality than DVDShrink 2.3/DVD95Copy 1.6b

roughly you are talking about a 15%-25% settings drop from the original IC % setting and even though the majority will agree IC is on most occasions the best quality of the one click wonders (even tho DVDShrink 2.3 is darn close now), it can't really compete with such a handicap

n.b. this is my opinion using a TFT with DVI as viewing setup and your opinion may differ, so please don't be offended

[YnoT]

I like IC7 personally but I had the same problem with IC7 while i try "Equilibrium". No matter how far you move the bar it still leave big space on the DVD-r or 4.3GB

but with "the true about charlie" i could adjust to 4.67GB.

However, those 4.67Gb was gone when i install the update #3

now i could only do 4.35 to 4.37GB MAX on IC7 with update #3.
It reduce "encoding/transcoding"or rendering by 50% but less quality.

anybody know how to remove the registry on the update?

Cuz if you uninstall the IC7 and re-install + update #2. It will not work.

I have to install the update #3 again.

Thanks guys

[mrbass]

it doesn't re-encode..rather it does transcoding.

You have my respect for all the work you have done on your guides and tutorials, but you're wrong.
Vejita-sama say it best in another post:

Generally speaking yes. IC is a re-encoder, while DVD2One and DVD Shrink are transcoders. Re-encoding should always produce superior quaility to transcoding. Point of fact, for the 'best' results you should re-encode with either TMPGenc or CCE, as the IC encoder isn't all that good

LTA

really? You sure it isn't a transcoder even though Pinnacle themselves say it is?
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/114/2

They do mention encoding...so I'd say we're both right I suppose. Either way no biggie.


"Q: Your InstantCopy product is slower than competing products like DVD2one or DVDShrink?

A: You are comparing apples and peaches. While InstantCopy is a full featured transcoder with highest quality output, both programs you are naming do only a quick “requantization” and ignore the lower quality and signal errors in the resulting stream.

Q: I don’t understand. Can you explain the difference in detail?

A: Well, basically MPEG Video is encoded in groups of pictures called GOPs. In every GOP is a reference frame followed by several difference frames. While the reference frame is encoded as a full picture the difference frames contain only the differences to the “last” frame. While encoding every frame is “quantitized” – this means that small, almost unnoticeable differences in the signal are removed. Both InstantCopy and competing programs change the quantization process. However, InstantCopy is the only program that takes the changes done into account for the following frames. This means that additionally to the “quantization” the whole frames needs to be decoded two times and encoded one time which is indeed very time consuming. However, if you only do the quantization the picture quality gets worse with every frame until the next reference frame is decoded – which is the famous annoying “pumping”.

[Triple_Helix]

mrbass wrote:

You are comparing apples and peaches.

It's 'apples and oranges' in my neck of the woods. Otherwise, I can't argue with anything you said.

LTA