What do the Big Boys use?

[steelborn]

I was just wondering, for the dvd's that we buy in the store, what is used to produce them? Obviously they have better discs (dual layered) and more expensive equipment, but what exactly do they use to make those discs compatible with most players out there?
I know Scenarist is the big program used, and it looks pretty complicated. But say your a mom and pop business that does wedding videos, and you want to move away from VHS. How can you produce dvds that will be compatible?
Doing them at home on my computer seems to work on select players, but when I try them on friend's machines, the disc plays awful.

later,
steelborn

[housepig]

the problem is not necessarily with the authoring software - it's more likely that it's the individual dvd players and the media you are burning with.

If you do a search on this website in the Players section, you'll see about 70% of the players are compatible with DVD-R and about 55% are compatible with DVD+R (at least last time I ran the search).

So you've got about a 7 out of 10 chance if you burn to -R, and 11 out of 20 if you burn to +R of it working in somebody's player.

If you want absolute compatibility from a burned disc, forget it - there is no way (aside from professional manufacturing) that you will be compatible with everything.

[steelborn]

But the question still remains, what are the big guns using? Someone told me to burn dvds with a silver or gold layer, and not maroon. I've searched and have not found any. Perhaps they were yanking my chain. Is it possible to burn a professional disc at home with other equipment?

[SLICK RICK]

Is it possible to burn a professional disc at home with other equipment?

I dont think so.

SLICK RICK

[BJ_M]

we dont "burn" dvd's for commercial releases -- we build a image on DLT and send it out.


for smaller runs and small quanities , burned alone or in a duplicator , i've been using ritek g03 printable (duplicator also prints on the disk) (DVD-r) , burned at 2x speed on only pioneer 104 and 105 burners (whats also in a duplicator also).

for single layer masters - i use pioneer authoring disks (burned on a pioneer 201 burner)

[steelborn]

DLT? Where would you send it out to? What are your costs? If I could find a company that could manufacture the finished disc for me, after I've cut the piece, that might be a solution.

Thanks,
steelborn

[BJ_M]

a dlt tape machine is about 3000$ , tapes are $50 each

you will need an authoring app that can write to DLT

then you send it to a duplication facility .. some of which now also take your data burned on disk (authoring disks prefered, you need a $2500 burner for that )

as to WHERE to send - check here:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=dvd+duplication&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

cost in bulk can range from 1.50 - 3.00 each , plus set up charges and covers and printing and artwork (if required) and jackets and sealing. dual layer is more as is dual sided. prices vary on deals you have for yearly orders and quantity so im not going to get to specific ..

min orders are ussually about 500-1000 at most places - some are less, though less than 100 would ussually be burned (single layer only) .

before sending some to be duplicated it is a good idea to have your material checked , you can do it yourself (about 5-10,000$) or have the duplication house check it for you (prices vary) ..

many places have specials on standard packages.

[dh]

I think the main difference is not what to produce them. What we buy in the movie store are DVD-ROM but what we burn in our homes are DVD-R, DVD+R....etc. They have different reflective index to the laser beam. Most DVD player, especially those old models, were made only for playing DVD-ROMs.

[txpharoah]

Well, us "big boys" use specialized hardware and proprietary software to build the video. We stick to TRUE DVD specs, with no fudging anything anywhere. The discs are put on DLT as stated above, and then sent to a repro house. The files are then pressed to disc. Many houses require minimum orders in the thousands, and some require contracts. We also have ORIGINAL source, rarely needing to capture. And if we do, the source is SVHS or Betacam SP if it was analog (movie industry differs a bit from mine, they'd have film) More and more we're all going straight digital using high-end Sony and Canon equipment).

The difference in your video capture and software is that it uses low-end chips and algorithms, often allowing things when it should not. It also uses software options instead of hardware options on much of what it does. You burn discs. A burn is merely a fake imprint of what a press would really look like. Another reason a pressed metal disc will last longer than the dye on a burn.

Scenarist is one of the tools I could use at work (though it's heavy learning curve is not something I want to tackle - I have employees for a reason). We call them video engineers. Then there are audio engineers. You don't do the work all together at the same time with the same people, at least not for larger operations. What you do at home, and what people like myself do at work are different worlds. Little of what I do at work has come in handy at home, and vice versa.

Anybody reading this should also take a quick look at the computer profile of BJ_M. That looks a lot like the toys I get to play with at work, though I personally use and prefer PC-based and Mac-based options. My specs here only include my home specs.

[steelborn]

Wow, thanks for all that great info. I knew the differences were something like that, but it's always better to hear it from someone who actually knows.

Thanks,
steelborn

[orbital517]

the problem is not necessarily with the authoring software - it's more likely that it's the individual dvd players and the media you are burning with.

If you do a search on this website in the Players section, you'll see about 70% of the players are compatible with DVD-R and about 55% are compatible with DVD+R (at least last time I ran the search).

So you've got about a 7 out of 10 chance if you burn to -R, and 11 out of 20 if you burn to +R of it working in somebody's player.

If you want absolute compatibility from a burned disc, forget it - there is no way (aside from professional manufacturing) that you will be compatible with everything.

Your numbers are wayyyyyyyyy off. This is taken from this site. (copy and paste):

DVD-R and DVD-RW
DVD-R/W was the first DVD recording format released that was compatible with standalone DVD Players.
DVD-R is a non-rewriteable format and it is compatible with about 89% of all DVD Players and all DVD-ROMs.
DVD-RW is a rewriteable format and it is compatible with about 72% of all DVD Players and most DVD-ROMs.
DVD-R/W supports single side 4.7 GB* DVDs(called DVD-5) and double side 9.4 GB* DVDs(called DVD-10).
These formats are supported by DVDForum.

DVD+R and DVD+RW
DVD+R/W has some better features than DVD-R/W such as lossless linking and both CAV and CLV writing.
DVD+R is a non-rewritable format and it is compatible with about 83% of all DVD Players and most DVD-ROMs.
DVD+RW is a rewritable format and is compatible with about 72% of all DVD Players and most DVD-ROMs.
DVD+R/W supports single side 4.7 GB* DVDs(called DVD-5) and double side 9.4 GB* DVDs(called DVD-10).
These formats are supported by the DVD+RW Alliance.


As you can see.........both formats are just about even when you talk about compatibility.

[housepig]

orbital -

like I said (if you read the parenthesis at the end of that paragraph) when I last did a search in the Players section of this site, those were the numbers I got.

it's been a while since I did that search - I just re-did it, and you are actually a bit low - DVD-R comes out at 90% of tested players, +R at 84%.

And I know that since I last checked, the number of players in the database is significantly higher.

[DivXExpert]

Does Scenarist export DLT?

[Rickster]

[quote="steelborn"]But the question still remains, what are the big guns using? Someone told me to burn dvds with a silver or gold layer, and not maroon. I've searched and have not found any. Perhaps they were yanking my chain. Is it possible to burn a professional disc at home with other equipment?

Hey, if you go to www.cdrom2go.com , you'll find silver DVD-R discs there. I bought a spindle of 50 discs from them recently for $44.50...89 cents apiece. They work great.

[BJ_M]

[quote="Rickster"]

But the question still remains, what are the big guns using? Someone told me to burn dvds with a silver or gold layer, and not maroon. I've searched and have not found any. Perhaps they were yanking my chain. Is it possible to burn a professional disc at home with other equipment?

Hey, if you go to www.cdrom2go.com , you'll find silver DVD-R discs there. I bought a spindle of 50 discs from them recently for $44.50...89 cents apiece. They work great.

i told you what I was using (and i can vouch for at least 2 other large post houses) - we all use fairly general ritek (G03 printable) or equal disks (ussually ritek) WHEN BURNING - BUT that is only for low volume stuff (i burn about 500- 1000 dvd's a month - or at least that many in my division) , also for higher quality check disks and masters not going on DLT - I use authoring disks , which are not burnable in dvd-r or dvd+r burners ..


so what do you mean by "professional disk" ? anyway ..

[BJ_M]

Does Scenarist export DLT?

yes - if you have a DLT tape machine and scsi

[txpharoah]

i told you what I was using (and i can vouch for at least 2 other large post houses) - we all use fairly general ritek (G03 printable) or equal disks (ussually ritek) WHEN BURNING - BUT that is only for low volume stuff (i burn about 500- 1000 dvd's a month - or at least that many in my division)

Yep, same here, using thermal printing on the final discs. Using Ritek or whatever is available on special from the vendor at that given time. But that's IF we burn. Most burns at work are from my computer, using an AUTHORING drive from PIONEER. Those are for internal usage and masters.

Although I'd like to state that we've had to replace various BURNS in the past, as burning on media is still less reliable than a press, so often we've just shelled out a bit more for a smaller-run pressing job, since we're on contract, we can get away with that.

[Craig Tucker]

Well I am quite a BIG BOY , I use DVD workshop.

[steelborn]

The DVD drive I'm using is the Sony DRU500A. How is your Authoring drive different?

I guess what I meant by "professional disc" was the dvd movies you buy at the store. But since those are pressed and not burned, I won't be able to have that kind of quality/compatability.

[BJ_M]

The DVD drive I'm using is the Sony DRU500A. How is your Authoring drive different?

I guess what I meant by "professional disc" was the dvd movies you buy at the store. But since those are pressed and not burned, I won't be able to have that kind of quality/compatability.

well for one -- it costs about 3500$ (used to cost 5000$) and it is scsi and 1x burning only ..
also its supported on sgi's (scenarist was first written for sgi's only and later ported to NT - its still sold for SGI (SGI 's use a UNIX type operating system and cost a small fortune) - now NT (and mac dvd authoring) have pretty well taken the market ..
the pioneer s201 uses a diff. wavelenth laser .. much narrower beam.

disks wriiten on a s201 are the most compatible disks (compared to other burned disks)

[gmatov]

"On CD-R media, the write laser heats the organic dye to approximately 250 degrees Celsius, causing it to melt and/or chemically decompose to form a depression or mark in the recording layer. The marks create the decreased reflectivity required by the read laser. On CD-RW media, the write laser changes the material between crystalline (25% reflectivity) and amorphous (15% reflectivity) states. This is done by either heating it above its melting point (500C to 700C) and letting it cool rapidly to convert it to amorphous form, or heating it to its transition point (200C) and letting it cool slowly to return it to the more stable crystalline state. The lower reflectivity of CD-RW makes the discs unreadable on most older players. "

Again, from CD-R faq site.
With these temperatures between layers of plastic, you think it's possible the problems arise from some off-gassing when the metallic layer or dyes are heated above the melting point, or to its transition point. There could be an actual buildup of gases between the layers of polycarbonate. it could spread the layers apart in small areas, or large for that matter, and throw the reflective layer away from focal point of the laser.
On an aside (slightly related ) I work in a steel mill, and we had a problem with some metal that would trap pockets of gas when it was enameled. No harm till days, weeks, months later, when the gas woulp blast a spall out of the enamel. Possible that the gas pockets formed gradually, or all at once and catastrophically, cause disks to spread apart, again losing the focal point.
On a pressed disk, that wouldn't happen.
A funny note further down the page is that "they" tell you 75 to a 100 years life expectancy. A line or two more, and the shelf life of a blank is 5 to 10 years. Go figure.

[txpharoah]

Well I am quite a BIG BOY , I use DVD workshop.

Reminds me of that diaper commercial... "I'm a BIG BOY NOW!" ... pull-ups or something. :P

Yeah, it's a quaint little program, does an decent job. I use it too now that they've added AC3 support.

[dcsos]

Reminds me of the feature film by Francis Ford Coppola before most of us knew who he was!
"YOU'RE A BIG BOY NOW"
the feature had 3 appearances by the LOVIN SPOONFUL
featuring JOHN SEBASTIAN that would be great on DVD today..

This LIL' MAN uses MAC-BASED tools-
DVD CREATOR an application that bridges the CORPORATE to the PROFESSIONAL MARKET
for a bit over $50,000... you can have it all with this system..
We have DLT, Hardware Encoding, Serial Digital In (SDI) Dolby Digital 5.1 & Authoring Media.......

Here in New York:
80% of my jobs are SINGLE LAYER, NO MENU jobbies
90% are ONE-OFFs over here (or a limited run of burns)
10% are REPLICATION JOBS..and only for these do we fire up the DLT...
never done a surround title yet and only 2 features in my resume!

By The Way you can get a used DLT for writing dual layer jobs for replication on EBAY for a thosand NOWADAYS...

[steelborn]

So, to sum up, unless I can shell out a pantload of cash for specific equipment, I'm boned?

How exactly does that $3200 Pioneer burner differ from other burners (apart from price that is)? Does it not also heat up the liquid in DVD-R's, or does it do it so well, that it makes it more compatible?

What I've been trying to do is help out a friend who is putting together video packages for some weddings, and we want to be able to give a dvd to the family's. She brought some of the discs with her to Canada, and they all played lousy except on her computer. She said they had a Sony and a Toshiba deck (but I don't know how old those decks are). They play ok on my machine at home, but I have a Sampo. It also played fine on my brother's deck and he has a Toshiba.

I just want to be able to tell my friend there's nothing more I can do on my end. I'm using Avid Xpress DV. Exporting the sequence as a Quicktime Reference, and then encoding with TMPGEnc. I've used Ulead's Movie Factory 2 & DVD-Lab to make the dvd's themselves.

I want to thank everyone for their input.
steelborn

[txpharoah]

So, to sum up, unless I can shell out a pantload of cash for specific equipment, I'm boned? How exactly does that $3200 Pioneer burner differ from other burners (apart from price that is)? Does it not also heat up the liquid in DVD-R's, or does it do it so well, that it makes it more compatible? What I've been trying to do is help out a friend who is putting together video packages for some weddings, and we want to be able to give a dvd to the family's. She brought some of the discs with her to Canada, and they all played lousy except on her computer. She said they had a Sony and a Toshiba deck (but I don't know how old those decks are). They play ok on my machine at home, but I have a Sampo. It also played fine on my brother's deck and he has a Toshiba. I just want to be able to tell my friend there's nothing more I can do on my end. I'm using Avid Xpress DV. Exporting the sequence as a Quicktime Reference, and then encoding with TMPGEnc. I've used Ulead's Movie Factory 2 & DVD-Lab to make the dvd's themselves. I want to thank everyone for their input. steelborn

Hmmm.... Are you boned?

Short answer: YES.

Long answer: NO. You need to make more complaint discs. Try Nero 5.5.10.20 to burn or RecordNow Max or DVDit! or others. Some players suck. Sony is known to often not play DVD-R discs, as are some older Toshibas. Tell your friend to buy a better machine (sorry, but no way around that problem). The Pioneer Authoring drive is not necessarily "better" moreso than "different". Be sure your encoding and authoring is done to exact DVD spec. Only buy good media like APPLE or MAXELL (not the spindles). Beyond that, there is not much you can do.

[steelborn]

Would I use MovieFactory or DVD-Lab to make the menus and the like, then create an image file that I would burn with Nero? I do have a spindle of Ricoh discs.

I think at home she's been using a Playstation 2, which I don't think would be a good idea for this stuff.

I really appreciate your input.

[subq]

and what about the "big boys"(heh) software side of things?

vegas4+dvd?
avid xpress?
final cut pro?

I was kind of looking for a "small boys" software package that will pretty much take capture to dvd without the need of a bunch of different pieces of software. Using an ADVC100 to get the video in.

Cheap route was sceneanalyzer live for capture, virtualdub for editing, huffyuv codec, tempgenc for encoding, nero for burning?

Wondering if there is a one stop package that will still give you the quality above (maybe tempgenc if the best as far as encoding goes, but something to do everything else).

Opinions?

[disturbed1]

I do have a spindle of Ricoh discs.

Try using -R discs instead of +R.

[steelborn]

I have been using -R discs. But thanks for suggesting it.

[BJ_M]

and what about the "big boys"(heh) software side of things?

vegas4+dvd?
avid xpress?
final cut pro?

I was kind of looking for a "small boys" software package that will pretty much take capture to dvd without the need of a bunch of different pieces of software. Using an ADVC100 to get the video in.

Cheap route was sceneanalyzer live for capture, virtualdub for editing, huffyuv codec, tempgenc for encoding, nero for burning?

Wondering if there is a one stop package that will still give you the quality above (maybe tempgenc if the best as far as encoding goes, but something to do everything else).

Opinions?

well - avid , and then avid and then also avid and also sometimes avid (none of the above meaning avid expressDV) and many final cut pro and a few henry systems .. toss in some speedrazor users (acually very popular) and video toaster users (very very popular also and a rabid fan base still from amiga days),, some liquid users out there and some *edit users . many more including some complete all in one packages from sony and panasonic and others .. a LOT of Matrox digisuites also come to think of it ..

at least thats what a studio description will read like and avid is rather the market leader in that respect .. in truth many editors work on a number of platforms - many with premiere and after effects is very popular .. i know of many editors now editng with vegas 4 or FCP and others (sometimes doing everything on a laptop) instead of the avid system which is right there next to them unless they are working one on one w/a client (cough cough) (and either conforming or just sticking to one thing) ..

almost all systems will have hardware or it is near at hand , avid various board sets , dps (very very poplular and very good quality) , cinewave , targa 3000 and several others including now many sdi solutions in sd and hd ..

really it boils down to what you are confortable with using and have experiance with because you can make "pro" quality on all these platforms listed here and what you mentioned also .. you can make can make crap on a avid also - it will not make someone automaticaly better in using it .

in other words its not so much the software - but the one using it . certain thing like color correction and scopes i would consider a nessessty for serious work which leaves ulead out of it in some part ..

in my opinion - vegas 4 is the best value in an all in one package as it has pretty well everything except some edl issues and hardware acceleration (yet) , i would also not hesitate to recomend FCP 4 comming out or premiere or avidDV