The future of -R: A thing of the Past

[silvergator]

I wouldn't be suprised if -R becomes a thing of the past. Don't get me wrong, I have a 104 myself, but I can't help but notice the overwhelming evidence.

Just go to Best Buy or Cicuit City and see how many -R recorders are being sold. I went to 2 different locations of each store and could only find one recorder capable of recording -R, and that was the Sony DRUAA.

Now where would you all say the majority of the population buys its DVD recorders? I would venture to guess retail outlets.

As far as price goes, +R is coming closer by the minute to matching -R, especially since that latest price hike for media.

It's only a matter of time until Beta Max rivals -R in usage.

[LanceSteel]

Best Buy and Circuit City are probably the last places to look to see whats the most popular in computer equipment. I looked at those two place almost a year ago (june or so) for dvd writers and at the time they only the HP-100i (or whatever the model of hp's +RW only drive was.) This was the time when the DVR-A03 had already been retired for the DVR-A04.

Look at what drives most computers in the recent past have come equipped with: dvd-r drives or what media is cheaper: dvd-r's.

Based on that I could say that the dvd+r/+rw are dead but I'm not going to. I don't think either format is going away anytime soon... well maybe until BlueRay comes out.

[BJ_M]

dvd-r is here to stay for a long time .. same with authoring burners (pioneer 201) .. you dont see them , but they are very much in use ..

DVD-r is still the official media type as per dvd.org .. but of course dvd+r is veey very popular ..

dvd-r is still supplied on macs also -- which are very popular for video editing and dvd burning ..

[mikk]

Since when were Best Buy or Circuit City "overwhelming evidence?"

Who here buy their stuff from those two places? Not many I think.

[silvergator]

Who here buy their stuff from those two places? Not many I think.

We are the minority in the bigger picture of people who buy DVD writers now that they are more and more standardized.

looked at those two place almost a year ago (june or so) for dvd writers and at the time they only the HP-100i

Have a look now. There are about five different +R recorders being sold at each place with no -R in sight.

Also look at pioneer. They are losing a ton of money right now and had to cut production of their DVD ROM line. Now all of a sudden the A05 is being sold at dirt cheap prices. Sounds like they are clearencing them off for that same purpose. And if indeed they are, then who is left to take the -R torch? Panasonic?

[BJ_M]

btw -- betamax is still very much with us -- it just went pro , as in beta sp machines ..

the sony 1800 is one of the most popular beta sp machines around and i doubt you could go into any video studio and NOT find one ...

though dv25 and dv50 as well as other formats are kicking it hard ...

sony even anounced an end to production of the lower end beta sp line - but not for some time for the high end beta sp's

[mikk]

now u're just speculating... i see the computer stores i go to ship more -R drives... not to mention the fact that macs use pioneer drives, and i see that a lot of places buy those macs. of course i'm in Australia, so maybe things are different over here. for me at least, dvd-r will be around for at least a few more years, regardless of who "wins" this format war.

also, did you really expect Pioneer to keep the price of the A05 high?

of course this whole topic is a silly argument because the whole issue doesn't really matter to me.

[LanceSteel]

Take a look now. There are about five different +R recorders being sold at each place with no -R in sight.

That's my point. If you look online, you see -R drives being sold along side the +R drives. Best Buy and Circuit City do not show the currect trend in computer equipment. If they did, I would be using an HP/Compaq pre-built POS and not an online purchased 3rd-party built computer.

In the past (pre-4x -R drives) people were claiming to be buying the +R drives for the added burning speed (2.4x vs 2x.) Now I just don't see the difference. 4x disks are expensive, +R disks are cheaper but more expensive than 1x/2x -R disks. -R's are playable in the same number of standalones as +R's. DVD manufacturers aren't going to drop DVD-R playability from their players (hell, they still support VCD's which was never a popular format in the USA and that format is 10 or so years old.) Neither format is going anywhere.

[silvergator]

Since when were Best Buy or Circuit City "overwhelming evidence?"

Who here buy their stuff from those two places? Not many I think.

Your average computer component consumer buys from one of these or other retail outlets, as opposed to online. And this group represents at least 75% of computer shoppers. Just because you might know a lot of "techies" dosen't mean they represent the majority.

dvd-r is still supplied on macs also -- which are very popular for video editing and dvd burning ..

What proportion does Mac represent in the PC world? 3-5% tops? And of those, how many have superdrives?

What apple could do is keep their $5-10 media alive to keep old customers happy and eventually switch over to +R.

The same sort of thing could apply to PC's using pioneer drives. keep the media alive for a while, but at a higher premium. The end result being people switching to +R to capatalize on the cheaper media.

also, did you really expect Pioneer to keep the price of the A05 high?

Maybe a little cheaper, but not half the price!

of course this whole topic is a silly argument because the whole issue doesn't really matter to me.

Then why even comment in the first place.

[energy80s]

Blue Ray will be the way to go in the near future. It's designed from the ground up as a home recording format unlike DVD which is a pre-recorded format selling movies to the public for extortionate prices!

[digitalmaster]

"The sharp increase in the sales of DVD recording equipment comes at a time when the Plus format is making huge gains in market share for DVD recorders and DVD drives."
"Weber said third-quarter sales figures (latest available) for DVD recorders for home entertainment systems showed Plus format recorders with half of the sales in the United States, three-fourths of the sales in Europe and two-thirds of the sales in the Asian-Pacific market outside of Japan."
http://www.consumerdvreviews.com/news/0103/01102003_01.asp[/b]

[ArrogantBastard]

Just my thoughts, but silvergator has posed an interesting question... Are the outlets where my Mom or my non PC friends purchase showing a bias?

Because lets be realistic. Very few of us on these boards ever purchase from those outlets. We are just more savy when it comes to those purchases.

Now on the other hand. My Mom and others would NEVER purchase computer equipment online unless I specifically told them to. The just don't have the experience and are comforted by the store.

So major retail outlets do affect buying habits in the choices they offer. I would wonder what their motivation for only carrying +R was. Do the make more profit off of +R media?

The other major contributor is new PC sales. What types of drives are available in new Dell, Gateway, IBM and HP machines? Those four manufacturers make up the bulk of all PC sales. Apple is nice, but their volumes are still less than 5% of the overall market. I am not sure what those manufacturers are offering, but they pull a lot of wieght.

So my thoughts. I don't believe either format is dead. I hedged and got a Sony DRU500A. Both are alive and well. Since compatability does not seem to be an issue on most new DVD hardware. Both will probably live on. Why does something have to die? If both are being profitable, then let the continue to live on.

I would welcome additional comments on the original post. What are other people seeing. I personally had not noticed a drop in -R hardware or software, but I will start paying attention.

Thanks for listening
AB

[simmons3d]

Anyone dumb enough to buy a proprietary system at circuit city is probably not going to be burning their own dvd's. Just an observation.

[Eug]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently DVD-R/-RW holds the biggest worldwide marketshare for computer DVD burners, and DVD-RAM/-R holds the biggest worldwide marketshare for standalone (home theatre) DVD recorders.

Around here, this would also be reflected in the stores.

Pioneer's A04/A05 is the most popular in the low margin computer stores, although the bigger chains may be inclined to carry both + and -. As for the stereo stores, it seems to me that the most popular machine is the Panasonic DMR-E30, likely partially because of the low price.

[menace]

I say that sure best buy and circuit city may sell the equipment, but where do people go when they are researching it to buy one or learning how to use it to --HERE or doom9.org or other boards like this one. I would hope that most people that shell out $200 bones for a piece of equipment have done a little more research than listening to the dufus's (usually) at best buy and have made a decision based on their personal feeling and not on what format best buy is putting on the market--best buy and other chains sell whats the most profitable, not necessarily what the majority of people use. I bought a dvd-r/w and have had nothing but success and a guy at work bought a dvd+r and has indicated likewise--if there is superiority there, its definitley not as cut and dried as the originator of this thread seems to think.

[fingernailX]

Circuit City - the trend setter and market maker for home video technology? One word is all that is required - Divx (not the codec)

[ArrogantBastard]

@All

Actually Major Retailers have the word MAJOR for a reason. They sell a lot. If you look at that forecasts, you will notice that even in this depressed economy they are doing pretty well. And rememeber, CompUSA and MicrsoCenter are included in this group.

It doesn't matter that you or I don't buy there and are smart enough to research here or on doom9. Lets not kid ourselves. We are early adapters and main stream retail has a lot of weight on what gets sold.

I laugh every time I see someone at one of the centers cart out a ton of PC boxes with a huge smile on his face. More than likely he can have done much better had he/she shopped around. But they seem to do it. And they do A LOT of it.

The question on the table is has anyone else noticed this type of bias at the retailers. And if so... Why do you think that is?

AB

[mysterio1]

All I gotta say is blue ray supports - format not + , case closed.

[Cornucopia]

digitalmaster:

Your link was faulty, this is the correct one
http://www.consumerdvreviews.com/news/0103/01102003_01.asp
But, COME ON, did you read the headline? This is a "prediction" touted by the head of the DVD+R Group... What do you expect him to say?

On another note, I've had customers come in lately who've bought their own equipment to do in-house corporate video DVD's, and they got DVD+R and some POS super-basic authoring software. They can't do what they want, can't get the cool stuff onto a disc of their own, and can't play it on the equipment they have to use it with. They've come to me. Guess what, I edit and author with pro software, and burn on DVD-R. It works, and they'll keep coming back. I'm about to get a 8drive 4x DVD-R/W duplication tower 'cuz business is getting better, and I'm LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. I know that DVD-R is here for a long time to come...

Scott

[s0cmbark]

Who cares about BLUE RAY!! That is all I've been hearing just because it supposedly doesn't support +r/rw. The -r people are wetting their pants because they finally have something to throw around. The previous posts are right, if you go into any Best Buy and Circuit City they are always filled and they can hardly keep DVD media on the shelfs. People ARE buying drives from their because they are always out of stock. Also they carry 4 times as many different +r/rw drives than they do -r/rw drives. I don't know what that means in terms of the format war but as long as my HP 200i and InstantCopy can make 1:1 copies of any dvd in 3 hours I don't care. I do know that nothing is going to be settled by some 4000 Blue Ray.

Nothing personal just venting.

[yautja666]

[quote="silvergator"]

Have a look now. There are about five different +R recorders being sold at each place with no -R in sight.

Mentioned this to a friend who works at local Best Buy and his response is that there are virtually no -R drives on the shelf because they cannot keep enough of them in stock to match the demand. His comments were reflective of his own store, btw, and not necessarily other stores in the chain.

-Y666

[defense]

WOW, I can't even believe people would respond to this post in the numbers they have. DVD-R is not going anywhere..lol. DVD+R has not been around nearly as long and the Jury is still out on the +R format. Not to mention the fact that if you take 50 random standalone players, and play BOTH formats on each. Some may play both, but the MAJORITY will ONLY play the -R format, and NOT the +R format. Even if newer standalones play the +R format, why would people dump their standalone players when they can just use the -R format instead?

LanceSteel said:

Based on that I could say that the dvd+r/+rw are dead but I'm not going to. I don't think either format is going away anytime soon... well maybe until BlueRay comes out.

BluRay is already out. That amazing electronics giant Sony introduced it (Who else) and it does NOT support DVD+R! So if ANY format is gonna be ancient history within the near future, it's gonna be DVD+R! How do you like dem apples? :bad-boy:

[metoo2]

The question on the table is has anyone else noticed this type of bias at the retailers. And if so... Why do you think that is?

AB

Yes, I've noticed this bias, and it's the fault of the purchasers. My favourite PC store sells HP/Compaq systems as well as putting together generic systems for local businesses. A generic pc, one heckuva deal, sat on a shelf for ages while customers purchased overpriced retail systems. There seems to be a viewpoint that you get better reliability from a retail brand. They're not familiar with pc's so the mentality is to stick with something with a good reputation.

Generic pc's/products have no reputation so folks don't want to chance wasting hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars on one. And if the customers won't buy generic products, then the major retailers have no incentive to offer generic products.

And it's the same with the stores; they'd rather purchase products from a major retailer they perceive as being reliable than purchase from a small computer shop unless the small shop has a good local reputation.

[disturbed1]

My local office max told me they've sold 100 + DVD-R drives in the last 4 days. That's just one store. The sales person then showed me a DVD+R drive they've had 20 units of for the past 6 months, it's sitting next to the full shelf of +R media, below the empty shelf of -R media.

He went on to say that some of the other locations only stock +R, or -R due to the confussion it creates for the sales team and customers. The average Joe just wants it to work. They buy in bulk and distribute according to demographics. One store gets 50 +R units, 10 -R units, while his store gets 300 -R units, and 0 +R units.

Then I went to best buy. 4 different +R brands, 2 each in stock. 2 -R brands, 10 each in stock. Plus 5 Sony dual formats in stock. When I asked about the quantity difference, the salesperson noted that the -R units sale 3 to 1 over the +R units, Sony is somewhere inbetween. But they sale 4 times the +R media compared to -R media, mostly because of rebates. Considering Verbatiums -R were about $4.00 a piece there, I'm happy with my online price of $2.00.


There are only two system builders I can think of that include +R drives with their computers. Dell, and HP. But Compaq (a division of HP) still uses Pioneer -R units, along with Apple, Sony, IBM, and all the others. Apple is contemplating the use of Sony DVD recorders, but with the +R functionality deleted.

Apple may have a 10% marketshare, but, 70% of the professional multimedia authors use Apple.

[Supreme2k]

I work for a very popULar certification company, and I can back up that -R is more likely to be the "winner" in this format war. We have had an exponential increase in the amount of -R drives being certified in the last six months. On top of that, we use -R as a testing standard for players. Any +R/RW compatability on players is done by other testing labs.

[defense]

He went on to say that some of the other locations only stock +R, or -R due to the confussion it creates for the sales team and customers.

That's a very GOOD point and I can see exactly why I store would stock only one type of format/drive. I can easily see a person purchasing a DVD burner drive and having the slightest clue whether it's PLUS, MINUS OR A "MULPTILICATION" drive! I can also see that same person buying..say..a (+) drive and purchasing a TON of (-R) media and HAVING NO CLUE AT ALL why they can't burn a disk. LOL. Just a note..I am willing to bet MOST people who buy DVD BURNER drives actually BELIEVE they can just throw in an original DVD and BURN it to blank DVD media...LIKE magic or something. Just for Shits & Giggles, when I was in Best Buy I asked TWO different computer sales reps if I could purchase the Sony DRU500a and make copies of movies like the Matrix, etc. They both said YES, confidently! LOL..I said are you sure? They said..ABSOLUTELY...you are making copies of DVD's, and that is a DVD BURNER.

I just looked at them both and wanted to bust out laughing...but I couldn't. I just wonder how many people they tell that too and how many people buy those drives THINKING that they will be burning DVD's like magic. LOL I bet their faces look like this when they find out they can't make a copy of a DVD like that.

[acid512]

Now, heres a theory (just a theory, nothing else).
When i search ebay (.co.uk, im in england), i can 'buy it now' (side note: when you buy of ebay, why the hell do they say you won? you have to bl**dy well pay for it ) a reasonably modern +rw burner for about 120 pounds, wereas even old A04's go for around 180.

My guess is that this means the ebay traders can get +rw burners cheeper bulk than -rw ones. So retail stores probably get the same. With DVDRW becoming continuously more main stream, the retail stores majority customers are unlickley to have any idea that there is a +/- war atall, and will opt for the cheapest, leaving -rw drives as dead stock for the stores (answer - only stock a few -rw drives, for the customers that want them)

Just a theory, based on an observatin made over a couple of months, make of it what you will.

Now, for my own reasons, i want to buy a pioneer A05/105. Does anyone know a good (ie cheap) place to buy one in the uk?

[metoo2]

customers are unlickley to have any idea that there is a +/- war atall, and will opt for the cheapest, leaving -rw drives as dead stock for the stores

Customers here go for the -rw if they want cheap, except for those instances when +rw is cheap. devil2

Actually, no one has any real idea which format will be more popular and will 'survive', or if either format will survive at all. Even the stores are trying to hedge their bets.

The big news is that DVD writers are being accepted in the mainstream. After a year or more of availability, the general public is accepting that dvd writers are ok. We'll only know in a few years which was the 'right' purchase, and by that time, most folks here will be buying newer units anyway.

[dcsos]

Sony has a mxed set of attitutdes.
They just introduced a series of MINI-DIGITAL CAMERAS
These only record to DVD-R (mini-discs)

also the BLU-RAY
this drive comes out on the 10th of NEXT MONTH in JAPAN for us $3,800
and no +R support is planned..
In the DVD burning area, Sony supports both formats with the DRU-500

also the PROFESSIONAL BLU RAY

Out here in MAY 2003..this drive is bundled with several $60,000

[dcsos]

That is Its (the PRO-BLURAY RECORDER for US) Coming out in May for 60,000 with a CAMERA attached to the drive and it will record MPEG-2 streams or DV to a 22 gig disc as well as PLAY only -R discs
Thats right coming NEXT MONTH
NO DVD+R play back planned yet
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/n_sony_goes_optical.shtml