SVCD minimum to be better than VCD

[novatix]

Wich are the minimum bitrate for a SVCD to be better than a VCD.
Does It depens on the encoder?

Thanks

[SingSing]

By viusal, I think they are the same.
A SVCD at 1100 look like VCD.

[caish5]

No No
at 1150 SVCD will look much worse than VCD because if it's a compliant SVCD it will have more than twice the resolution to encode. (352*288 vs 480 * 576) PAL

It would IMO need to be at least VBR average 1700.

Andy

[Nelson37]

As with so many things, it depends. As already stated, an SVCD has twice the resolution into which to allocate the bitrate, so higher bitrates are obviously needed. However, a low-motion movie will require less increase than a hi-motion movie, general level of detail and source quality will also affect this. I have done 720x480 slideshows down to 800 bits and they still look great, as there is high detail but NO motion.

I have gone as low as 1450 avg, with a 2500-300 max, and still get good quality, but I wouldn't do that with Star Wars, for instance.

[SingSing]

No No
at 1150 SVCD will look much worse than VCD because if it's a compliant SVCD it will have more than twice the resolution to encode. (352*288 vs 480 * 576) PAL

It would IMO need to be at least VBR average 1700.

Andy

I hear what you siad, but I did quite a few SVCD at 1600 VBR avrg,
and the look much, much better than VCD.

The double vetical resolution of SVCD most likely help out.

[Digifreak]

Yes, 1150 CBR SVCD will look worse than VCD. The key here is VBR on SVCD. Using CCE and lowering the image quality priority to 10 or so and allowing 4-6 passes, CCE will very efficiently allocate more of the bits to complex scenes, giving a better picture where needed. TMPGEnc 2 pass does not do this as well. This does however degrade still/simple scenes, depends on the movie. My CCE encodes for low motion movies look as good as VCD at 100 minutes per 700MB disc with audio at 128kbps. Get even better results dropping the resolution to CVD (352x480) looks almost as good as 480x480 but gives you more bits for quality instead of resolution.

[poopyhead]

No No
at 1150 SVCD will look much worse than VCD because if it's a compliant SVCD it will have more than twice the resolution to encode. (352*288 vs 480 * 576) PAL

It would IMO need to be at least VBR average 1700.

Andy

even though, at the same bitrate, each pixel in VCD will get more bitrate than each pixel in SVCD, which means SVCD will have more blockiness.....however, since SVCD does have more pixels (higher resolution), it should be sharper than VCD...VCD will be fuzzier, but less blocks

so, dropping the resolution so that each pixel will get more bitrate doesn't mean the image quality will be better, because lower resolution will be less sharp

[adam]

There is always a tradeoff with every setting you adjust, however a SVCD @1150k should look much worse than a VCD @1150k. This bitrate is just far too low to support a resolution that large, even with VBR. Also the lower your bitrate the less effective VBR becomes.

There is no clear point at which SVCD @x bitrate becomes lower quality than VCD. It all depends on, well everything.

Generally I am of the opinion that if your avg bitrate is going to be less than 1600kbits then you would be better off making an xvcd at 352x240, or even a VCD.

[PlaiBoi]

I want to be able to fit 120 min. onto 2 CD's. My movie is approximately 118 min. long (Insomnia). I think VCD does look pretty good on my TV, but...it just bothers me that half the 2'nd CD will be empty. So I thought...either VCD at 1600 CBR or SVCD at 1600 avg. I'm gonna compare those two right now...and will get back to u.

btw...im a little hesitant to start using the VCD 1600 cbr though...because im afraid some DVD players might not play it. How compatible do you think this will be? I dont want to make the movies...take them to a friend or family members house...and then have them not play.

[PlaiBoi]

ok...i just compared them...and to me it looked like the SVCD at 1600 avg. looked better. It also has a larger file size. 34 seconds...the SVCD was 7.53 mb and the VCD at 1600 cbr was 6.72 mb.

[Nelson37]

A good compromise might be CVD resolution @ 352x480.

[energy80s]

Just remember that MPEG2 looks dreadful below 2mbps. If you want to put that length of a film onto just two discs I would use some sort of XVCD MPEG1. You would be better off using 3 discs if you want decent quality MPEG2.

[supercrew]

I disagree, with using 3cd's to get best quality for SVCD.

If the source is clean from say a DVD. You can get very good quality Mpeg2 23.97 fps video with Pulldown.

I have gotten upto 90mins on an 80min CD-R. If you are not doing critical viewing and there are a lot of LOW motion scenes. CCE set to 3 pass VBR will generate a good video.
Video
Avg = 1048kbs
Max = 2472kbs
Min = 500kbs

Audio = 128kbs


If movie has a high motion content, or is over 90 mins I use 2 CD-R's.

So many people are trying to get ultimate quality with a format that was created as a compromise.

When I view SVCD's on my 27in tv, I hardly notice slight blockness on some dark low motion scenes.

I use to create multidisk cd-r's for every movie, but I would rather give up a little quality and reduce the amount of cd-r I have to maintain by 1/2.

Plus I don't like changing disks in the middle of a movie unless I have to...

If you want Best Quality...Buy the DVD!!!!!

[poopyhead]

I disagree, with using 3cd's to get best quality for SVCD.

Video
Avg = 1048kbs
Max = 2472kbs
Min = 500kbs

Audio = 128kbs

If you want Best Quality...Buy the DVD!!!!!

that avg. bitrate is really low....even lower than VCD's 1150 kbs bitrate... granted you using 3 pass VBR, but still....on avg., that bitrate is way to low....even for watching on a TV....there may not be that much blockiness, but how about sharpness? did you compare it with the actual DVD?

also, being able to watch the movies on a computer is a plus....which means that bitrate won't cut it

in terms of quality, not all of us has that much money to spend on buying the actual DVDs, yet we don't want VCD quality, so SVCD is a good compromise...

keep in mind even VCDs (which have inferior quality compared to SVCDs) are usually on 2 CDs or more...trying to fit a movie on 1 CD (i.e. the crappy kvcd) is going to lower the quality too much

[kwag]

keep in mind even VCDs (which have inferior quality compared to SVCDs) are usually on 2 CDs or more...trying to fit a movie on 1 CD (i.e. the crappy kvcd) is going to lower the quality too much

Apparently you're out on a mission, and I will correct you, and make things clear for people reading these posts. So kvcd is crap? This is all you've said on almost all your posts. So I always provide a sample for people, and let them decide. Then they know who is the REAL crap.
Here's an SKVCD sample, cut out from the complete encoded movie "Heist", which is "One hour, fourty nine minutes" on a single CD-R. Average bit rate 1,088Kbps. Here's your crap sample:
http://www.kvcd.net/heist-sample.mpg

So to everyone reading this post, please see for yourself, if the sample above would fall into a "Crap" category, as poopyhead always describes KVCD's. And remember: The complete movie is on a single 80 minute CD-R, with that quality.

So, users of this forum, you decide. And if you really want to test the sample, please burn it as SVCD with VCDeasy, and play it on your DVD player

-kwag

[wulf109]

My two cents,if you encode at the same resolution and bitrate I doubt that anyone could tell the difference between an XVCD and an XSVCD. I've made XVCD at 2150B/R and 720x480 resolution and there as good as any XSVD done at the bitrate and resolution. If you want to see a really outstanding encode,encode the vob directly in Tmpeg,don't frameserve it.

[poopyhead]

[quote="kwag"]

So, users of this forum, you decide. And if you really want to test the sample, please burn it as SVCD with VCDeasy, and play it on your DVD player

errr, as i mentioned before does this pass the test on the computer? not everyone just solely watches on the TV. anything can look fairly decent on the TV, even VCDs....the better test would be if there was a direct comparison between your kvcd and an SVCD

[kwag]

errr, as i mentioned before does this pass the test on the computer?

Played on WinDVD or PowerDVD, yes it does.

-kwag

[PlaiBoi]

uh....y wud u bother making (S)VCD if your watching on your computer anyway? If your watching on your computer...then just use DivX and save alot of space.

I used to use Kwags templates...but decided that going the extra CD for SVCD was worth keeping in standards and having to worry about the incompatibility, BUT im slowly getting intrigued by his templates again. KVCDx3 looks promising...I might just have to switch over to KVCD again kwag.

[rendalunit]

@PlaiBoi,

I just did "Insomnia" the other day- put on two cds with the kvcdx3 template (528 x 480) cq-35 , 256kbps audio, and no noise filters.

here's a one minute sample (15 mb)

[kwag]

@rendalunit,

Burned your sample. What can I say Looks like the original on my 32" Samsung HDTV 8)

-kwag

[WeedVender]

My CVD template for TMPGenc and CCE looks better than that. I have to admit, it looks ok but im a quality based fanatic. But good job on that template. The background needs a little help though.

[poopyhead]

keep in mind even VCDs (which have inferior quality compared to SVCDs) are usually on 2 CDs or more...trying to fit a movie on 1 CD (i.e. the crappy kvcd) is going to lower the quality too much

Apparently you're out on a mission, and I will correct you, and make things clear for people reading these posts. So kvcd is crap? This is all you've said on almost all your posts. So I always provide a sample for people, and let them decide. Then they know who is the REAL crap.
Here's an SKVCD sample, cut out from the complete encoded movie "Heist", which is "One hour, fourty nine minutes" on a single CD-R. Average bit rate 1,088Kbps. Here's your crap sample:
http://www.kvcd.net/heist-sample.mpg

So to everyone reading this post, please see for yourself, if the sample above would fall into a "Crap" category, as poopyhead always describes KVCD's. And remember: The complete movie is on a single 80 minute CD-R, with that quality.

So, users of this forum, you decide. And if you really want to test the sample, please burn it as SVCD with VCDeasy, and play it on your DVD player

-kwag

why does the image look so soft....looks really fuzzy

also, i don't get why you're comparing kvcds to the original DVDs...did you actually do a side-by-side comparison...i can even tell there's a BIG difference between that and SVCD....., let alone the difference between SVCD and the original DVD

anyone can always lower the bitrate to fit on less CDs, but you comparing it to the original DVD when there's already a big difference between kvcd and svcd...

btw kwag, did you use an image filter to smooth out any blocks? if you did, try encoding a sample w/o any image filters on it...because by reducing those blocks, the image looks really soft...

---------

as for the others, i'm not comparing between xvcd and svcds....since if you increase the xvcd bitrate (i.e. > 2 mbit/s) comparable to svcd bitrate, then the quality should be similar...it's when kvcd drops the bitrate to even lower than that of vcds, the quality's gonna suffer

[kwag]

why does the image look so soft

It will look only slightly softer than a SVCD, because the resolution on SKVCD is 352x480 ( Half D-1 ) I personally don't care about 480x480, because it's not as a standard resolution as 352x480. Which is indeed a standard DVD resolution. Not so for 480x480. That same clip done as SVCD looks only slightly sharper than the SKVCD. But then, trying to put that amount of time at 480x480 on a single CD-R will look really bad.
Also, there were no filters used on that encode.

as for the others, i'm not comparing between xvcd and svcds....since if you increase the xvcd bitrate (i.e. > 2 mbit/s) comparable to svcd bitrate, then the quality should be similar...it's when kvcd drops the bitrate to even lower than that of vcds, the quality's gonna suffer

The average bit rate for the KVCDx3 sample that rendalunit posted, as viewed with bit rate viewer, is only 1,702Kbps. And that's a resolution of 528x480. For the SKVCD sample I posted, it's 1,088Kbps, and that's below a CBR VCD bit rate.

-kwag

[supercrew]

I think everyone needs to access what quality they are seeking with their backup and use whatever format or bitrate that works.

For me fitting 85 ~ 90 min SVCD on 1 cd fits my needs and is playable on both my pioneer 525 and phillips 825 DVD players.

I have veiwed on an apex dvd + 32in sharp tv and quality is definately viewable and enjoyable.

supercrew

[poopyhead]

I think everyone needs to access what quality they are seeking with their backup and use whatever format or bitrate that works.

For me fitting 85 ~ 90 min SVCD on 1 cd fits my needs and is playable on both my pioneer 525 and phillips 825 DVD players.

I have veiwed on an apex dvd + 32in sharp tv and quality is definately viewable and enjoyable.

supercrew

that's not what my problem is... i'm sure if you wanna fit a movie on less CDs, you're willing to sacrifice the quality....

at that low bitrate, kvcd looks acceptable CONISDERING the bitrate...

however, my problem is for kwag to compare it to SVCD quality, let alone "near DVD" quality. this will mislead alotta ppl into thinking that they will get that kind of quality fitting 2 hrs on 1 CD.

of course quality is all subjective, but for people who do view the original DVDs and even SVCDs (<2mbit/s), the quality difference is obvious. i'm sure for people who've only seen VCDs or highly compressed stuff like nAVI or asf, the quality will be better.

kwag, 480x480 is standard for SVCD, so if someone wants to make their SVCD standard, that's the resolution they choose. it's not that big of a deal in having the resolution be DVD standard since it would be pointless to put such low bitrate rips on a DVD-R anywayz.

since your template is basically an xvcd, it itself is not compliant.

[poopyhead]

uh....y wud u bother making (S)VCD if your watching on your computer anyway? If your watching on your computer...then just use DivX and save alot of space.

errr....i didn't say only on the computer... for most of us, it would be good if the SVCD can also be played at pretty decent quality on the computer. it wouldn't make since to make an SVCD for TV and divx for computer for each movie.

[kwag]

however, my problem is for kwag to compare it to SVCD quality, let alone "near DVD" quality. this will mislead alotta ppl into thinking that they will get that kind of quality fitting 2 hrs on 1 CD.

You are totally missing the whole point poopyhead. First of all, if you take the KVCDx3, which is 528x480 or 544x480, that IS nead DVD quality. Just like the sample rendalunit posted. In that case, it was done in 2 CD's. Now, it all depends on the type of movie you are doing. You CAN use the x3 to put a 2 hour movie on a single CD, and if it is a low to medium action movie, it will look just like that sample. Take a movie like "The Others". A very dark movie. That movie fits completely on a single CD-R with the KVCDx3 template, and looks just like the original DVD. Confirmed on a HDTV. So it all depends on the type of movie. If you try to put "We were soldiers" on one CD-R with the x3, it will look like crap. But on two CD's, it will look great. If you start to use the file prediction formula with the templates, you'll get amazing results, and you'll fill the disk instead of having to use X-Pass VBR. Even better, if you use the new version of DVD2SVCD 1.1.0 Build 1, you can target KVCDs directly. Just select the KVCD quantization matrix from the "Matrices" tab, and everything will be automatic. DVD2SVCD uses the file prediction method too for CQ encoding modes. This way, you don't have to manually calculate the correct CQ_VBR with the formula. It's done automatically for you.

-kwag

[poopyhead]

You are totally missing the whole point poopyhead. First of all, if you take the KVCDx3, which is 528x480 or 544x480, that IS nead DVD quality. Just like the sample rendalunit posted. In that case, it was done in 2 CD's. Now, it all depends on the type of movie you are doing. You CAN use the x3 to put a 2 hour movie on a single CD, and if it is a low to medium action movie, it will look just like that sample.

does it though? i took a look at the heist sample and the insomnia sample. w/ the heist sample, the explosion was really obviously blocky. i took a look at your sample and the exact same scenes on a SVCD (>2mbit/s). there were obvious differences, especially in the background.

granted, insomnia was better than heist in terms of quality, but also there was an increase in 700 kbit/s. however, the sample was of a slow scene in insomnia, so i'm not sure how the other scenes in the movie are or if it can be applied to a high action movie...but anywayz, even in insomnia, i could tell differences, but less, given the higher bitrate used. but in this case, 2 discs defeats your rhetoric of fitting a movie on 1 CD to get chapters, etc. you were talking about earlier...

since there are alotta SVCDs that are also made on 2 CDs and of pretty good quality (i.e. done by release groups), your template for fitting a movie on 2 CDs doesn't seem that different. an SVCD using xpass VBR to fit a movie on 2 CDs prolly will look better than a kvcd using CQ to fit on 2 CDs. unless you're gonna say CQ has the same bitrate allocation ability that xpass VBR does

[PlaiBoi]

@rendalunit

I watched your sample. This is the same movie im encoding at the moment too! How exciting! lol. The sample looks ok...but i have to say that it does not look as good as my SVCD encode of the movie. I encoded this movie to 2-CD's with 2-Pass VBR with an avg. of 1680 min. of 600 and max. of 2530 and audio at 160. It fits on 2-CD's and looks good. I have to say that it looks better than the KVCDx3 encode that you did. The KVCDx3 encode looks a bit grainy in the background...and I noticed that it was also pretty soft. Just my 2 cents...not bashing on anyone.

P.S. I think KVCD is great...i used it the first day when kwag posted his template on this forum after some guy said he could fit 120 min. good quality on one cd-r when he encoded from avi to asf to mpg.