Blu-ray DVD is ........ DEAD (well maybe not yet)

[BJ_M]

Forum sets course for blue-laser DVD standard

By Yoshiko Hara

EE Times
November 8, 2002 (4:26 p.m. EST)


TOKYO — The DVD Forum will use the 0.6-mm bonded disk proposed by NEC Corp. and Toshiba Corp. as the basis of its next-generation DVD standard utilizing a blue laser. The Forum will not consider the rival blue-laser technology backed by the Blu-ray Consortium, which was not formally submitted to the DVD Forum for consideration.

The standards-setting body had formed two groups earlier this year to study the two optical disk systems. The approach advocated by NEC and Toshiba uses the same 0.6-mm disk substrate employed in current DVDs, while the Blu-ray approach uses a disk with a 0.1-mm cover layer.

NEC and Toshiba jointly proposed the Advanced Optical Disk System to the DVD Forum in August, but the Blu-Ray Disk proponents have not taken a similar step. "As there is no practical proposal of 0.1-mm cover layer disk systems, the working group is virtually dormant," a DVD Forum spokesman said.




The Forum's steering committee decided at a meeting in Paris on Oct. 29 to set specifications for blue-laser DVD systems using 0.6-mm disks.

Aside from the blue laser, the disk system proposed by NEC and Toshiba maintains features of current DVD disk systems. The numerical aperture of the system's lens is 0.65 and the disk consists of two 0.6-mm platters bonded back-to-back. Storage capacity is 20 Gbytes per side for a single-layer recordable disk and 15 Gbytes per side for a read-only disk. That's less than the Blu-Ray disk system, which can story 27 Gbytes per side of a single-layer disk. The Blu-Ray system uses a lens with a numerical aperture of 0.85.

NEC and Toshiba say their specifications are friendly to the current DVD infrastructure and are thus more beneficial to both manufacturers and users than the Blu-ray system

[adam]

Maybe they just now made it official but this happened like 6 months ago.

[BJ_M]

yes -- but now its official ..

[vitualis]

The machinations of the DVD Forum...

I wonder if Blu-Ray is really going to be DOA (or not arrive at all) or if we are going to have another DVD-/+R/W type battle on our hands...

Regards.

[daTerminehtor]

I don't think so.

This confirmation is actually great news for all parties.
- end users
- rental outlets
- manufacturers
- retail outlets

Imagine, Blockbuster for example, stocking 2 types of DVD? I don't think so. The main feature for this format is the fact that it is backwards compatible. Realistically, DVD is only in its infancy, yet millions have already bought into it. Can you imagine the industry spanning hoopla if a new delivery system were to take place?

Nevermind the average end user. "But, it's still DVD, why won't it play in this machine you just sold me?". And really, in the end, it looks like the little guy, in all his ignorance, finally won at something.

[adam]

This really doesn't change anything. Instead of one particular blue laser format we have another so as far as the consumer is concerned its the same thing.

Blue laser techology is definitely a good thing. Every movie will essentially be a superbit dvd but will also contain all the usual extras. No more bad mastering jobs because even if they screw up, they still have all that extra bitrate to make up for it. A box set of something like the alien legagy costs like $100 because they have to produce 4 or 5 disks. You could fit them all on a single blue laser DVD and charge less since you only have 1 disk to manufacture. You may see new movies released in both normal and blue laser dvds but that won't go on for too long. Blue laser technology is supposed to become the only commercial dvd standard in the next few years.

daTerminehtor the "industry" has already given their opinion on this. They have already agreed that DVD will go blue laser, and only blue laser, very soon.

[crahak]

Well, I can see we might be forced into it somehow... It keeps hapenning with every new technology. However, I find this is much like DVD-Audio or SACD. It is almost too much of a good thing. Sure, you'll fit all on a single disc, but, superbit, and HDTV like resolutions and the like will only really benefit people with TV sets that are of a high enough quality... Just like they'd want us to have 16:9 HDTV's... Sorry, but we're not all rich, or willing to spend all our money on a TV. Seems like most people can live with VCD and VHS quality, but they'll manage to sell that new format, just like they came with Audio CD's, a lot of people listen now to low bitrate MP3's and are fairly happy with it, then they want us to buy DVD-Audio and SACD. Oh well... Guess that's life.

[adam]

But this is not at all like superbit dvds or SACD. Those are marketing gimicks which soley claim to provide an increase in quality. Blue laser dvds are really just a logical progression. I believe blue laser disks are just as cheap to produce as regular dvds, yet they have much more capacity. Same price, same features, but can hold a heck of alot more data. The entire industry is switching to blue laser technology because it just makes more sense. Sure there is going to be a transition period and probably even alot of backlash, but in a few years everyone is going to have blue laser players and every dvd produced will be a blue laser dvd and we will all be better off for it. And don't forget about the burners which are scheduled for release not long after the players. No more complaining about not being able to fit a dual layered dvd on one blank. We will be fitting 3 or 4 dual layered dvds on one blue laser disk.

[Greg12]

Superbit DVD's are a waste of replicator time and energy.

I have a HDTV and I don't notice any difference. The video is being output in Compent video, YCrCb

[daTerminehtor]

snip...
daTerminehtor the "industry" has already given their opinion on this. They have already agreed that DVD will go blue laser, and only blue laser, very soon.

I should be more clear. I see this as a good thing. Insofar as industry sqaubbles, I believe it was a wise choice to go this route, rather than having to repurchase our collections again because the new players would've not been backwards compatible.

[energy80s]

Maybe this is what's required to finally kickstart the home DVD recorder market. As I have said before, I think that current -R & +R technology is just an interim format and within a few years both formats will be gone. Blue Laser offers the best chance of long VHS recording times and DVD picture quality on a single, cheap (??) disc.

[mute]

As I have said before, I think that current -R & +R technology is just an interim format and within a few years both formats will be gone. Blue Laser offers the best chance of long VHS recording times and DVD picture quality on a single, cheap (??) disc.

Funny you should mention VHS I'm pretty sure that the current DVD format (including -R, at least) will be around quite a while, just like VHS. So many people have invested in current DVD technology already, so new formats will not be keenly adopted for a while. Todays DVD got through the VHS-dominated consumer market, after some [comercial] failiures with Laserdisc and CDi, that at the time seemed to be alternatives to VHS...

[markums2k]

God help me, I will never purchase a DVD audio disc. What a waste of time! As for blue laser technology, the longer they put off a switch, the better IMHO. Regarding 4 disc boxsets, I actually kinda like having all those discs. If I spent $100 for just one of those blue thingys, I'd feel pretty cheated.

I also don't think prices are going to go down as discs get cheaper. How cheap is it to produce CDs now? Yet, they STILL cost $18+ if they are brand new and not on sale. Plus, the content of most CDs has DIMINISHED. 10 tracks for $14? Sheesh. I know I'm ranting incoherently now, so I'll stop.

[crahak]

Well, I have not said that the actual space was a bad thing. Just saying that most people are still happy with VHS/VCD quality. So why more than DVD? Y'know. I know, it is also so they can cram it all on a disc... But I don't watch (never did) any extras. I have a hard time fiding free time to watch movies to start with. Now, I'm looking at buying a DVD-R around xmas, and they want to basically retire the current DVD format. Y'know? Oh. Just wait another 5 years for the blue ray DVD burner's prices to get lower than 500$? I think not... It's not even funny to think about retiring it, as most people I know are just STARTING to buy DVD players... Anyways. I know it will happen regardless...

[energy80s]

The new Blue Laser DVD format is backwards compatible which means it will play back all of your existing commercial DVD collections. In fact it will probably play -R and +R discs too. That isn't the issue. The beauty of the new format is that you will have the ability to store a hell of a lot more info on the one disc. This is of interest to DVDR users as they can't have dual layered discs - however it might also be of interest to movie studios. It would be much handier to release a single disc of LOTR than the 4 disc set I've just ordered!!

[SingSing]

I also don't think prices are going to go down as discs get cheaper. How cheap is it to produce CDs now? Yet, they STILL cost $18+ if they are brand new and not on sale. Plus, the content of most CDs has DIMINISHED. 10 tracks for $14? Sheesh. I know I'm ranting incoherently now, so I'll stop.

In asia, a blank Cd cost $0.25, Print the CD graphics, $0.80 and up.
Booklet and case : $1.20 and up.

The rest go to big studo, and RIAA, and then to the singers...

[crahak]

Playback is not what I meant. Why would I buy a DVD-R writer if they're coming out with the blu ray one already is more like it. I know they'll be expensive... But prices will drop eventually. LOTR is 4 DVDs? I dunno, I haven't come across many movies that needed more than one DVD (the stand being the only one that i can remember), so I don't think that's really changing anything, but they'll crap all the extras and other stuff on the same disc, which I never watch anyways.. Oh well.

[purplehaze]

Blu-ray is definitely not dead. The blu-ray format was never proposed to the DVD Forum by the 9 companies backing it. It is considered "next generation" technology and a new organisation will probably be formed to regulate it.

Even after this decision by the DVD forum I still believe that blu-ray will be a stronger format than HD DVD. You just have to look at the 9 companies backing blu-ray: Sony, Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sharp, Samsung, Thomson, LG and Hitachi as opposed to the 2 main companies backing HD DVD: Toshiba and Nec.

In the coming years, I look forward to watching HD movies on whichever format is more widely accepted.

[fuzzywuzzy]

The problem with Blu-Ray is that it is incompatible with current DVD standards, including all of the writable DVD formats. Unless manufacturers come up with some sort of horrendously complex kludge of including a current DVD laser/subsystem alongside a Blu-Ray system, a Blu-Ray machine would not be able to play any of the current DVD formats. The DVD Forum approved blue laser format *IS* backward compatible, it will play all of the current DVD formats.

So, do you want all of your current DVDs to be unplayable in the future? Then choose Blu-Ray.

[fantomlord]

The DVD Forum approved blue laser format *IS* backward compatible, it will play all of the current DVD formats.

So, do you want all of your current DVDs to be unplayable in the future? Then choose Blu-Ray.

didn't you just completely contradict yourself?

[BJ_M]

The DVD Forum approved blue laser format *IS* backward compatible, it will play all of the current DVD formats.

So, do you want all of your current DVDs to be unplayable in the future? Then choose Blu-Ray.

didn't you just completely contradict yourself? :roll:

no -- what he said is correct .. :
1. the approved format is backward compatable
2. Blu-Ray is NOT backward compatable
3. Blu-Ray is NOT the approved future format but a different blue laser media

[fantomlord]

oops
I didn't read that close enough

[purplehaze]

Apart from the eetimes article, every other article on this (perhaps fictional) decision quotes the Japan Times. I found these articles today at Digital Bits:

"I've received yet another interesting e-mail from the DVD Forum, clarifying the situation we've been reporting on over the weekend re: working out the final HD-DVD spec. It seems that the Sony group has never officially proposed Blu-Ray to the DVD Forum. And apparently, Forum Steering Committee members are talking about the incorrect article in Japan Today now, which seems to have caused quite a stir. As before, we're working to try to sort out all the details on this - we'll update you as necessary."

"Interesting. So I received an e-mail early this morning from an official with the DVD Forum in Japan, letting me know that the story reported in the Japan Times last week is in error. The Forum is not adopting the Toshiba/NEC spec proposal as the final HD-DVD format spec. What's actually happening is that they're crafting a new spec, built on the blue laser concept, that's based on the various spec proposals they've received. So the final spec could incorporate aspects of each of them. The question is, how much of the Toshiba/NEC proposal is being adopted as opposed to how much of the Sony BluRay proposal is being accepted... and is it enough of a compromise on both sides to keep the Sony group from walking and launching BluRay on their own. Maybe it's time to stress once more how important it is for the industry to adopt a SINGLE format for HD-DVD supported by ALL of the industry players."

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#moreforum

There's no news about any decision on the DVD Forum site so it looks like Japan Today may have jumped the gun.

Looks like we can hold off on fomat war debates for a while longer.

Edit: forgot to add second article.

[BJ_M]

NEC had apress release on their japan web site that it was finalized -- but they yanked the release and all links to it .. seems the big guns at sony may have gotten a little peeved at being left out .... now thuis could turn ugly and the consumeer will get left in the wind as a "compromise" of course means nothing will work well....... this was on the IT world web site:

Battle looms over successor standard to DVD Printer Friendly Format
Mail to a friend


ITworld.com
Kuriko Miyake, IDG News Service, Tokyo Bureau
Two competing technologies which enable more than 20G bytes of data to be stored on each side of an optical disk are nearing commercialization, leading to fears that the industry could be split between support for one format or the other.



Toshiba Corp. and NEC Corp. have proposed their Advanced Optical Disc (AOD) technology as a standard to the DVD Forum, a consortium of 212 companies. The forum is expect to settle on full specifications for AOD by the second quarter next year, said Hideyuki Irie, a DVD Forum official.

Earlier this year, the basic specifications for an alternative high-capacity standard known as Blu-Ray were announced by nine companies: Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., Royal Philips Electronics NV, Sony Corp., Hitachi Ltd., LG Electronics Inc., Pioneer Corp. Samsung Electric Co. Ltd., Sharp Corp. and Thomson Multimedia SA.

The AOD is based on a 405-nanometer-wavelength blue laser and can store up to 20G bytes of data on one side of a disc of the same size as a conventional DVD disc. AOD drives are expected to be commercially produced next year, according to Mitsumasa Fukumoto, an NEC spokesman.

Blu-Ray, which also uses a 405-nanometer blue laser, can store up to 27G bytes of data on one side or 50G bytes on two sides, and is expected to be commercialized soon but no targeted launching date is set, Sony's Tsuyoshi Sakaguchi said.

High-capacity DVD drives are expected to be in demand in Japan once high-definition broadcasting begins next year. The 20G-byte capacity is large enough to record about two hours of high-definition video.

The industry is concerned about a battle between the AOD and Blu-Ray standards in future, according to Irie.

"The forum has been trying to merge the two formats into one standard and hasn't given up on doing so, but technically speaking, it is very difficult unless each side approaches and compromises with each other," Irie said.

However, the forum sees little possibility of those approaches being made, Irie said.

The same standards issue exists in the conventional 4.7G-byte DVD world.

DVD has three main formats -- DVD-R/RW (DVD recordable/rewritable), DVD-RAM and DVD+R/RW. The first two are backed up by the DVD Forum, which also supports DVD Multi, a standard to comply DVD-R/RW and DVD-RAM. DVD+R/RW is supported by Sony Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co. Mitsubishi Chemical Corp., Yamaha Corp. and Ricoh Co. Ltd.

Sony, which is also a DVD Forum member, recently unveiled a DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW drive but not many companies from either side are planning to follow.

[purplehaze]

I don't think the blu-ray camp wants to compromise. It looks like they believe that blu-ray should not fall under the DVD Forum, so I wouldn't expect any miracles in the near future.

A good thing that may come from a format war is an earlier release date for both fomats.