File size change when burning and 800MB on 80m CDs

[W_Eagle]

Hello pals,

I'm quite perplexed about file sizes and what movie file size will fit on one 80 minutes CD.

I prepared a SVCD, or actually CVD movie file with TMPGEnc. The movie.mpg file size is 756 MB. With VCDEasy 1.1.1 I added chapters and created cue/bin files. Now, the videocd.bin file size is 870 MB.

Upon trying to burn on TEAC CD-W540E (40x12x48) with Nero 5.5.8.0 to an 80 minutes CD-RW (Verbatim 2x -4x 700MB) the image file, Nero says there is not enough room on the media and will not burn. When trying to burn directly SVCD from the movie.mpg file, Nero shows at the bottom that the file, or disk, size is a little under 800 MB. At the "Write" command, in "Disk-At-Once" mode, Nero pops up a warning message "Sorry, this compilation contains too much data ... Do you want to overburn writing at your own risk? ... Note: It is also possible that SCSI/Atapi errors occur at the end of simulation or burning. ..." - Which is what actually happen - there are errors towards the end of the CD and the standalone player get stuck at certain point towards the end.

CDRWin 3.9a shows that the disk running time is 86:14:50. At the "Start Recording" command, CDRWin pops up a warning message: "Warning: Disk is longer than 74 minutes. Do you want to continue?" Towards the end of burning,CDRWin pops up a warning message: "Error: 'WRITE' command failed on device 1:1:0 Read/Write error or bad medium detected". Again, there are errors towards the end of the CD and the standalone player get stuck at certain point towards the end.

Now, on the burned CD, the avseq01.mpg file size 868 MB.

I don't get why the 756 MB .mpg file on the hard drive turned into 868 MB .mpg file on the CDROM.

Mu major question is:
What is the maximum size of .mpg files (on the hard drive) that can be burned correctly on 80 minutes CDs?

Thanks.

Take care

[ya_jai]

Maybe VCDimager add some heading to your svcd. Most of the time this happens when use Update scan offsets option for SVCD. You can check by reading the log file created by vcdxbuild whild program is running under dos if there is padding on the fly with your svcd. I'm sorry if I'm wrong on this becuz It's been for so long since my last time I got this problem.

[wway]

W_Eagle,

I'm having the same problem. I do not have an answer, but i would like to add to the information you have presented.

1. This problem occurs when encoding to 'MPEG-2 Program (VBR)' with TMPGEnc.

2. I was able to determine that the 'MPEG-2 Program (VBR)' file has a packet size of 2048 bytes and not 2324 bytes like 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' (see below). This accounts for the increase in file size when burned to CD.

3. bbMPEG shows MPEG-2 packet size of 2048 bytes and SVCD packet size of 2324 bytes. I re-muxed a file to 'MPEG-2' using bbMPEG, BUT i used the same packet size as a SVCD stream. This worked. The resulting file burned correctly. However, the fast forward and pause functions on my DVD player caused the picture and sound to become out of sync.

One of my DVD players will not play SVCD streams unless the file has a compliant video bitrate (2520 kbps). It will play MPEG-2 streams at any bitrate. But I lose about 13% of the CD space because of the smaller packet size of MPEG-2.

What I have been doing is using 70 minutes as the maximum capacity of a CD. When the MPEG-2 is burned to CD, it results in a file close to 80 minutes (ie. 2324/2048 x 70 min = 79.43 min). This is not too bad if you make CVD's (352x480). You lose 13% disk space but you are also encoding 26% fewer pixels as compared SVCD (480x480). So, you're still a little ahead of the game.

Hopefully someone can explain why MPEG-2 files are packeted to 2048 bytes.

wway

[W_Eagle]

Hello pal,

First, thank you very much for your detailed reply, which is also very helpful - you pointed out how to practically burn correctly my CDs.

Hopefully someone can explain why MPEG-2 files are packeted to 2048 bytes.
wway

WWWOOOEEE,
Oh man - this matter VCD/SVCD/CVD authoring is far more complicated than I ever imagined.

I am a self-taught electronics technician, working in the capacity of an electronics engineer. I'm also a self-taught computer technician and a power user. It is now about 2 months that I'm experimenting authoring SVCD/CVDs, burning trials on CD-RW - haven't got yet to burn my first movie on CD-R. This website proved to be an immense assistance. Well, I do believe that one day I will be able to burn a proper, decent quality, video CD ...

Take care

[ya_jai]

W_Eagle,

What I have been doing is using 70 minutes as the maximum capacity of a CD. When the MPEG-2 is burned to CD, it results in a file close to 80 minutes (ie. 2324/2048 x 70 min = 79.43 min). This is not too bad if you make CVD's (352x480). You lose 13% disk space but you are also encoding 26% fewer pixels as compared SVCD (480x480). So, you're still a little ahead of the game.

Hopefully someone can explain why MPEG-2 files are packeted to 2048 bytes.

wway

I don't have to get the maximum of 700MB (70mins) in order to make bin/cue file and to fit into 80 mins. I always encoded with 352x480 res, 23.976fps with 3:2 pull down and encode with (CQ bitrate depends on how long of movie).

One thing though if I can remember correctly, you have to set GOP sequence header to 1 instead of 0, inorder to use update scan offsets option correctly.

I can encoded one mpeg2 file to 780MB in size and still can fit into 80mins CD. After using VCDimager the size increase only 10-20mb which is no problem at all for me to burn into a Cd.

[wway]

ya_jai,

I tried making an image file with VCDImager but the 800mb MPEG-2 file produced an image of 900+ mb (close to the 2324/2048 ratio).

I do have 'Output interval of sequence header:' set to '1' GOP.

Are you encoding to 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' or 'MPEG-2 Program (VBR)'? The 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' streams work fine as far as burning to the correct file size.

If you could send me your CVD template in a private message i would appreciate it.

@W_Eagle,
If I find a solution I'll post it here.

wway

[ya_jai]

Of course I encode all my moive in MPEG-2 Super VCD(VBR) but I use CQ instead. I don't think using MPEG-2 Program(VBR) is the right one to make SVCD and be able to play in DVD player, thou.

This is my setting in TMPGenc 2.54 plus

size : 352x480
Aspect ration: 4:3 525 line NTSC
Frame rate : 23.976
Rate control mode: constant quality (CQ)
Setting: Quality = 100, Max = 2000-2520 (depends on how long i want to fit in cd), Min = 0, P picture = 0, B picture = 20
Encoded mode = 3:2 pull down when play back
Motion serce = High Quality(slow)
In advance I think you already know (Non-interace, Top field first (field A) and so on.
The last set sequence header in GOP to 1, I =1, P = 5, B = 2

This is how I set my timplate.

[W_Eagle]

Hello pals,

First, as I mentioned in my original post, I author CVD, not SVCD.
Second, I encode in VBR, not CBR.
Third, I live in a PAL country (Israel).
It seemd easier to me to evade being bombed than authoring CVD ...

Take care

[BJ_M]

Of course I encode all my moive in MPEG-2 Super VCD(VBR) but I use CQ instead. I don't think using MPEG-2 Program(VBR) is the right one to make SVCD and be able to play in DVD player, thou.

This is my setting in TMPGenc 2.54 plus

size : 352x480
Aspect ration: 4:3 525 line NTSC
Frame rate : 23.976
Rate control mode: constant quality (CQ)
Setting: Quality = 100, Max = 2000-2520 (depends on how long i want to fit in cd), Min = 0, P picture = 0, B picture = 20
Encoded mode = 3:2 pull down when play back
Motion serce = High Quality(slow)
In advance I think you already know (Non-interace, Top field first (field A) and so on.
The last set sequence header in GOP to 1, I =1, P = 5, B = 2

This is how I set my timplate.

CQ = 100 is basicly CBR i believe

[ya_jai]

[quote="BJ_M
CQ = 100 is basicly CBR i believe[/quote]

I believe so that CQ_100 = CBR but my point of using CQ so that I can adjust to fit more minutes to my CD. I have tested to encode at CQ_100 bitrate 2520 and CBR @ 2520. The result was a little bit different in size but same quality. If it were in older version 12a I would use CQ_65 instead but with new Plus version if I use CQ_65 the quality will become suck with a very small in size so that I have to bump up to 100 or sometime less but not too much.

[ya_jai]

Hello pals,

First, as I mentioned in my original post, I author CVD, not SVCD.
Second, I encode in VBR, not CBR.
Third, I live in a PAL country (Israel).
It seemd easier to me to evade being bombed than authoring CVD ...

I prepared a SVCD, or actually CVD movie file with TMPGEnc. The movie.mpg file size is 756 MB. With VCDEasy 1.1.1 I added chapters and created cue/bin files. Now, the videocd.bin file size is 870 MB.

So what you really wanna do CVD, SVCD????

And all the setting that I posted is for wway, which he/she asked me about my template.

If you wanna read more about CVD here's the link
http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/svcd/overview/

I'm sorry I can't help much becuz I'm not really into CVD format

Good luck :P

[SatStorm]

More infos for CVD also here: http://forum.vcdhelp.com/userguides/98177.php

You need to demux your mpeg 2 file and remux it as SVCD with TMPGenc or BBmpeg.
Why you don't use the simply menus from nero? For most users, those menus are enough.

[ya_jai]

Oh!!! thanks SatStorm for the link.

I just know that all I've encoded is in CVD format after all. lol

PS I guess it's true and if you read more you will know more, eh?

[W_Eagle]

Hello pal,

Thanks.

You need to demux your mpeg 2 file and remux it as SVCD with TMPGenc or BBmpeg.
Why you don't use the simply menus from nero? For most users, those menus are enough.

How do I demux and remux? Is it that I just re-encode the .mpg file as
MPG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)? Or should I also change the rewsolution to that of SVCD?
If I will encode in the first place in MPG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR) insted of MPG-2 Program (VBR) in CVD resolution:
1. Will it encode all right?
2. Will the end result be the same as demuxing and remuxing?

Take care

[W_Eagle]

Hello pals,

Okay, I solved the problem, with the aid of what some of you people wrote here.

First, in TMPGEnc (2.57 plus) I encode the .avi file to CVD .mpg file (352x576, 25fps PAL). In 'System Type' I use 'MPG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' instead of 'MPG-2 Program (VBR)'. This is after what wway wrote:
"I was able to determine that the 'MPEG-2 Program (VBR)' file has a packet size of 2048 bytes and not 2324 bytes like 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)".
And also what SatStorm wrote:
"You need to demux your mpeg 2 file and remux it as SVCD".

Second, in VCDEasy (1.1.1), upon adding chapters and making bin/cue files, in 'Tools' -> '(S)VCD Build/Rip' I check the option 'Use 2336 bytes sectors mode for CD Image'. Also, in 'Settings' -> 'CD Images Options' I check 'Use 2336 bytes sectors mode for CD Image'.

Now, I know I have taken 2 steps, or actually 3 steps at once. I don't know whether it would work with less steps. All I care is that the problem is solved and now I can burn .mpg files close to 800MB on one 80 min. CD-R.

Thank you all.

Take care

[vitualis]

The muxing of the MPEG is very important. If the muxing is wrong or the packet size is incorrect, VCDImager will attempt to autopad it. This rarely works well and you end up with the inflated file size.

As has been mentioned above, if anything wasn't encoded with a specific SVCD template, you will need to remux. the stream (preferably with bbMPEG for SVCD).

The reason why the pack size is 2324 bytes is because that is the amount of "user data" available per sector under MODE2 Form2 (which is what VCDs and SVCDs are burnt in). Essentially, each sector on a S/VCD will contain one "packet".

Regards.

[W_Eagle]

Hello pal,

The muxing of the MPEG is very important.

You are probably correct. As I mentioned in my above post, I took 2 steps at once. One is that I encoded the .avi file with TMPGEnc with system stream type of 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR) which is the correct encoding for SVCD and encodes in pack size of 2324 bytes. Second, I checked pack size of 2324 bytes in VCDEasy.

I made a second try, this time I took only the first step - encoded the .avi file with TMPGEnc with system stream type of 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR). I unchecked the pack size of 2324 bytes in VCDEasy.

The correct encoding was all that was needed and the results were fine - no significant increase in file size when burning, or when creating cue/bin files.

Take care

[wway]

W_Eagle,

I'm glad you found a solution.

In my case i have to avoid 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' because one of my DVD players will not play this stream unless it is 2520 bitrate.

What i do now is encode to 'MPEG-2 Program (VBR)' (using CVD resolution) and then remux to 'MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard)'. This stream results in the correct file size when burned and plays fine on both DVD players.

I dont know if muxing a 'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)' to 'MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard)' will work the same way.

I knew some of the 'big guns' (SatStorm, vitualis) would help us out. Thanks guys.

wway

[W_Eagle]

Hello pals,

All is well that ends well ...

Each one of us have found the way to do it right.
That's, all that matters - that we make our CVD's that play on our own standalones.
Maybe each one of us is a 'big shot' - I was assisted by you, wway, not less than by those you label as 'big shots'.
This is not to discredit anyone, it is only to credit each and every one of us.
To my view, what happens in this website is an image of what I envission as an ideal society - each and every member is assisting, weelingly, freely, any other member.

God Bless.

Take care

[W_Eagle]

Hello pal,

I knew some of the 'big guns' (SatStorm, vitualis) would help us out. wway

To my view, you, wway, is no less a 'big gun' than anyone else.
Actually it was you who first, in this chain, pointed out the actual source of the problem - sector size. Once we know where the problem stems from - each finds ones own solution.

Be blessed.

Take care

[arealgijoe]

[b] Trying to burn 756MB on a 700 MB disk is absurd!

An 80 minute CD-R/Rw is only 700MB!

How could you expect to fit a 756MB movie or 756 Mb anything on a 700 Mb disk?

Maybe I missed somthing in my QUICK review of other posts here, but NONE seem to notice the SIZE v disk CAPICITY.

a std 74 min CD is 650 MBs and a 80 min CD blank is 700MB, or at least all the ones I have ever bought.

First: I do not try to squeeze a full 700MBs on 700MB disk, I allow for oever head etc. Same for a 650MB disk, I always leave just little room.

My Suggestion:

try using a disk with GREATEr CAPACITY than the file/s you are trying to burn on it.

JD

[Martyn1980]

b] Trying to burn 756MB on a 700 MB disk is absurd!

An 80 minute CD-R/Rw is only 700MB!

How could you expect to fit a 756MB movie or 756 Mb anything on a 700 Mb disk?

Maybe I missed somthing in my QUICK review of other posts here, but NONE seem to notice the SIZE v disk CAPICITY.

a std 74 min CD is 650 MBs and a 80 min CD blank is 700MB, or at least all the ones I have ever bought.

Can someone set this straight once and for all, maybe put it on the main page.

Rather than go into all the error correction details, i'll make it easy, most of these blank CD's can have audio burned on them too, and a 650mb cd can hold 74mins of audio, a 700mb cd can hold 80mins audio, a VCD stream with video and sound equals PCM audio, and averages at 10mb a minute, so when looking at CD's look at the running time not the size in MB and multiply that time by 10, thats your max capacity, 795mb is optimum on a 80min CD though and thats all i use,

As for the multiplexing thing, i know its been anwered but only use BBmpeg for SVCD if its within standards, my VBR XSVCD's are extremely jerky (even on the PC) if i use BBmpeg, Tmpeg is better for XSVCD and you get an extra few MB by not having Scan Offsets, although this can cause audio desync, but its not been a problem for me yet.

[vitualis]

Maybe I missed somthing in my QUICK review of other posts here, but NONE seem to notice the SIZE v disk CAPICITY.

Yes, you did miss something and I suggest that you read some of the guides on this site before giving anymore erroneous advice.

An 80min/700MB CD holds approx. 795-6 MB of data in MODE2 Form2 sectors without overburning.

Regards.

[W_Eagle]

Hello pal,

How could you expect to fit a 756MB movie or 756 Mb anything on a 700 Mb disk?

Maybe I missed somthing in my QUICK review of other posts here, but NONE seem to notice the SIZE v disk CAPICITY.

There are probably hundreds of forum posts and also some guides and the FAQ of this site who deal with fitting 800 MB video on 80 min. CDs.
Next time, instead of quick review try to search the forum.

Take care

[darkobserver]

Guys, sorry for opening this old can of worms again.

After reading a lot about CVD, I tried it out for myself and was impressed with the quality of the results.

But now, producing my first full-length movie I have a problem that seems to be a variant of the one W.Eagle had, when he started this thread:

During my tests with short clips I used the "'MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR)" stream type for encoding to begin with. But what happened was that the audio and video were stuttering during playback on my DVD player.

After some fiddling I found out, that -in reversal of what wway had to do- my player plays it fine, if I use the "MPEG-2 Program (VBR)" stream setting. But now the result is a file that is 748MB on my HD and 766 MB in Nero. Nero says it's too big when trying to burn a non-standard SCVD and won't burn it on my 80min CDRW.

I then used simple multiplex in TMPGenc to remux(?!) the file with a different header (using the original MPEG as both the source for video and audio, if that's correct), as described here and Nero burned the resulting file this time, because it appears to be smaller.

But my player won't play it!

What can I do? Where did I do something wrong?
Any help appreciated.