Simple Answer Please about grainy movies...

[crjackson]

What causes the final mpeg2 file (DVD Movie) to be more grainy than the original capture from a Hi8 tape?

Do I need to increase the bitrate or is there something else I should adjust (like sharpness / filters)?

Some of my movies look like perfect copies, and others look grainy. Quality of original source is the same. I don't know what setting would decrease the grainy final product.

[kitty]

Tell us how you are doing it & we can focus on the problem

[mh2360]

Virtualdub has many filters to deal with things like this, I'll leave it to the Vdub experts (i'm not one of them...) to reply to this (c'mon guys )...

[banjazzer]

Without details of what is being done now there is little possibility of constructive advice.

[Mirror_Image]

Without details of what is being done now there is little possibility of constructive advice.

I'll second that.

[offline]

Speaking v,generally ( as a few more details would be nice )

Some encoders seem to add noise as part of their function but most
noise will come from your capture. The sharpen filters will only serve
to make the final video show even more "grain". You can try the various
smoothing filters (built in to most encoders and editors) but the result will
be a blurry effect. The best solution, in my experience, is to use some
of the advanced filters available on the net. For example I use Avisynth (to frame serve) and could not live without a plugin called convolution3d which really cleans up my VHS capture efforts.

VirtualDUb has a default noise filter as well as some time based smoothers as do commercial editing programs. These are ok but you really need to search the net and grab yourself one of the cutting edge filters.

[crjackson]

Using Pinnacle Studio 7 / DC10+ capture.
Source is a Sony Hi8 recorded in LP mode.
Encoded using Studio 7 at 720x480 3250 kbs. MPEG2
Burning to DVD-R using Pioneer DVR-A04 with Gen. Purp. Media (no name)

Authored using Ulead Studio. Don't re-encode source overide selected.

Final product (friends wedding) too grainy for owners liking.

Wanted... Final product to match source tape...

Do I increase to 6000 kbps or higher to make less grainy looking?

If so, will reducing res to 352x480 (because tape will not fit on DVD-R at 6000 kbps) reduce the picture quality on playback.

It' my understanding that Hi8 only has around 300x480 res anyway, so does this really effect the final product?

Using the filter option really reduces the file size too, but leaves the images slightly on the soft side.

Using the editor functions of Studio 7, I could reduce the shaprness too if you think that would be the way to go.

Since it takes MANY hours to re-encode the avi file, I'd rather not have to do this over and over again until I get it right.

Any suggestions?

[kitty]

Two ways to get better quality:

Record your videos in SP mode
Use TMPGenc instead of the Studio codec.

[Mirror_Image]

If you just want to fit that one video on the disk, encode the video at as high a bitrate as you can (and still have it fit on one disk). If you can, use just a couple of minutes worth and experiment a bit with bitrates, filters, sharpness, etc.

[crjackson]

Two ways to get better quality:

Record your videos in SP mode
Use TMPGenc instead of the Studio codec.

Yes kitty, I know about recording in sp mode. The problem is that this tape was made a few years ago by someone else. He want's it transfered to DVD-R.

The source tape is of good quality already though, that isn't what I'm asking about. I only included the recording mode information because everyone wanted to know exactly what I was trying to do. It would be very hard to recreate the wedding from several years ago just to re-record it in SP mode...

[crjackson]

If you just want to fit that one video on the disk, encode the video at as high a bitrate as you can (and still have it fit on one disk). If you can, use just a couple of minutes worth and experiment a bit with bitrates, filters, sharpness, etc.

3250 kbps IS the highest bitrate that will allow the video to fit on DVDR at 720x480. If I have to split it up onto two DVD-R's it no big deal. I was just hoping someone could tell me if increasing the kbps would reduce the grainy effect. If so, then would reducing the resolution to 352x480 (to compensate for increased file size) cause other noticable negative effects that would negate the effort?

[banjazzer]

I think you should do what kitty suggested and try TMPG rather than Studio 7. Despite the higher price of some of the capturing/editing/encoding packages, they don't always do the best job on the encoding.

[crjackson]

TMPGenc won't work here. The captured AVI file from the DC10+ is unique it seems due to the hardware mjpeg codec on board. I've tried several encoders and they all tell me that no compatiable codec is installed that can encode the file.

Back to a question of....

Will increaseing the bitrate help decrease grainieness? Will reduction in resolution cause other NOTICABLE picture quality loss when played back on an NTSC color television?

[Xesdeeni]

Of course raising the bitrate will increase the quality. But you will have to use multiple DVDs, which is understandably annoying. Your best bet is to find a way to frameserve from the Studio 7 codec so you can:

1. process the video in VirtualDub to add one of the noise filters
2. experiment with deinterlacing (if was shot from a tripod, the smart deinterlacers will be best, if not use the dumb ones) and encoding as non-interlaced
3. encode using TMPGEnc, which will do better with the limited bitrate you need to use to fit the video on one DVD.

[The most significant improvement you will see will be with #3 above.]

YMMV on converting to 352x480. Many claim that video tapes don't have more than 300 "pixels" of resolution per line. This is demonstrably wrong, even from a VHS tape recorded in SLP mode. (I won't go into the details here, but I believe this involves some confusion when converting from analog resolution to digital pixels.) But in my experience, reducing the resolution will result in 3 things:

1. a reduction in the quality of the video (yes, even for VHS or 8mm) and the appearance of jaggies on nearly vertical edges (proportional to the size of your viewing screen)
2. if the noise you see is from the source or capture board, and you do the reduction AFTER capturing, it will be reduced somewhat (if you do the reduction DURING capture, you may actually INCREASE the noise if it is in the capture board, because the pixels are wider)
3. increase the quality of the compression marginally; this should be better given that the data for each frame is half, but my experience has shown that it isn't nearly the increase I would have expected (perhaps this has to do with the fact that there is just as much motion to encode per frame?)
4. MPEG artifacts may actually appear larger, since each pixel is now twice as wide on the screen

But, I would highly recommend doing whatever it takes to bypass the Studio 7 MPEG encoder, as I think this is the most likely cause of your noise.

Xesdeeni

[crjackson]

Xesdeeni

Thanks for your information. This is the most helpful so far. I'll see if the other encoders will accept the AVI created by the DC10+ and give it a shot.

If this doesn't help, I guess I'll have to split the thing up on 2 DVD's and just increase the bitrate to the hightst possible for each.

[crjackson]

Well, I just tried TMPGEnc and found that it can't work with the avi files created by the DC10+.

I'll have to try something else I suppose.

[banjazzer]

Are the avis accepted by Virtualdub? If they are, you could frameserve to TMPG.

[crjackson]

I haven't tried virtualdub yet. What exactly is frameserving?

[Mirror_Image]

http://www.vcdhelp.com/faq.htm#frameserve

[banjazzer]

Thanks for the link. If you can read your avi with Virtualdub, it will allow TMPG also to read the avi via Virtualdub.

[gnawrot]

I have DC10+ capture card which is hardware MJPEG card. It will record good quality tape and introduce noise as a sideffect of compression (lossy) and degradading results. That is why I bought ATI Radeon AIW 7500. TMPGEnc works with AVI captured with DC10+ card. Sorry to disappoint you but DC10+ capture card is useless in my opinion for creating MPEG1/MPEG2 movies. When I recorded grass it looked like grassy sea - so much noise was generated. This card is ment to capture AVI and output it to tape but not to encoder. This card is MPEG1-2 encoder crippled. ATI is way better but noise is always issue when encoding. Still I have to find best combination of filters. They make difference though. I can tell you how great photo looks after applying adjustments and filters in Photoshop. Same is with video and audio.

[gnawrot]

You will not be able to capture video in VirtualDub using your capture card. Frameserving is good if you don't have enough space on your hard drive to save processed movie. I don't use frameserving because I tweak with TMPGEnc a lot before I burn movie on CD-R (but I have 80GB HD + 20GB HD). I compress avi using Huffy lossless codec (compresses almost as good as MJPGEG - around 2.7). You can burn MPEG1/2 movies on CD-RW and watch it on dvd-player before you burn final CD-R. Your capture card is not good to create MPEG1/2 movies. You can do it but results will not be pleasing. Once I rented Chicken Run DVD and captured on my PC (using DC10+) 5 minutes of movie at highest quality and saved on Hi8 Sony camcorder and quality was not good. It was really grainy. Then I recorded directly from capture card when I was watching DVD on my PC and quality of Hi8 recording was really good. Go Figure. Captured movie looked like second copy. If your friends recorded wedding in LP mode and you captured it using DC10+ then I can imagine the quality and no wonder your friends were not happy (it is not your fault but DC10+). LP mode is not great either but it is not your fault. Only solution. Get different capture card not this DC10+. Sorry to disappoint you but I went the same route so I talk from my own experience.

[thxkid]

want a perfect copy try to find a friend or get a hold of a panasonic DMR-E20 or E30 DVD recorder, I have recorded SHVS, VHS, 8mm, Hi8mm on a DVD-R and it actually looks better than original tape, thats in the 1 hour(9800 bitrate) mode, other than that get a better capture card my Happauge WINPVR capture card does great MPEG2 captures, specially at 6000 bitrate. If you have plenty of hard disc space say 40gigs or more you can just get a cheaper AVI TV capture card for around $50, capture in Huffy AVI, then encode over to MPEG2 using TMPGE.
BUT!, capturing, encoding, burning this all takes t i m e!! why I Got a Home DVD Recorder for $499.

[jebedia]

Hi,

I also use a DC10+ and am using the Picvideo mjpeg codec to use the avi's in other program's.

I believe there is a freeware mjpeg codec, Morgan something ?

By the way, the picvideo codec only costs $18 for non-commercial use.

I consider the Picvideo codec to be the best and also the fastest.

[crjackson]

I don't think the DC10+ is the problem. I think it's a setting or something.

Why?

I just eliminated the DC10+ today, and captured a 100% digital movie from my Sony DV cam (firewire). I captured in FULL Digital quality and the playback was grainy right from the AVI.

I used Pinnacle Studio 7. I wonder if it's the software rather than the card.

Also, I have copied a few VHS movies using the DC10+ / Studio with PERFECT results. I just don't know what I did different. It's got to be a setting issue (doesn't it?) if some movies (using analog) come out very impressive, and others come out looking like there's sand in the lense.

I wish I knew what I did to make Rush Hour and Highlander come out so pristine.