AVI to CVD, tmpg or cce?

[jokerman]

I know that CCE is best for dvd2svcd but how about avi files. What gives better results, CCE or TMPG?

[SatStorm]

It depents with what you want to do...
CCE generally is better (faster, better quality when you use multipass faction)
TMPGenc is cheaper and almost equal...
With BOTH solutions, you can do any mpeg 2 job excellent!

[House de Kris]

Echoing SatStorm, depends on what you are doing. If your AVI has audio with a sample rate of 48kHz and your target is an output file with audio sampled at 44.1kHz, you'd be well advised to steer clear of TMPGEnc. I don't know if CCE will totally botch audio sample rate conversions like TMPGEnc, but it has to be better. Few applications can destroy audio like TMPGEnc.

[banjazzer]

You should not blame TMPGEnc because of the deficiencies of those who use it. It is not advisable to use 48kHz audio with TMPGEnc. For anyone with a modicum of competence it is a simple matter to resample the audio to 44.1kHz.

[House de Kris]

Oh I do not blame TMPGEnc because of the deficiencies of those who use it, I blame TMGEnc for the deficiencies of the individual who wrote it. To simply throw out ~10% of the samples is no way to create a sample rate converter. My advice was to not use it if your source is 48kHz and the target is 44.1kHz. But when you say, "It is not advisable to use 48kHz audio with TMPGEnc" it would seem that it shouldn't be used in any case of 48kHz. This is news to me.

I agree that for a person "with a modicum of competence it is a simple matter to resample the audio to 44.1kHz," luckily I've got tons of common sense and my common sense tells me to not waste my time with half-baked software. In my case, I use the Ligos encoder and have never had any audio issues. In fact, I have NEVER had any sync issues that you read about all the time on this forum. I have never had to demux and remux. Thus, I have never had to compensate for the deficiencies of software that the general public seems to believe is a godsend.

But, this is going down a tangent that is not related to the question being asked. The question was, should he use CCE or TMPGEnc. The question was NOT should he use CCE or TMPGEnc with a boatload of auxillary software, procedures, and hoops to jump through.

[Daagar]

Most people that use TMPGEnc will A) Strip the audio to a .wav in VDub first, and B) pass that .wav through SSRC for sample rate convertion and C) pass the downsampled file through tooLAME, by way of the external tools option. Sync problems can and do still happen, through no fault of TMPGEnc.

For most people, it appears that the audio length varies from the video length, which causes the drifting. I'm testing this now, but I _believe_ the correct fix is:

1. Load the source in VirtualDub. Extract the audio to .wav, 44.1KHz.
2. Set Video to 'Direct Stream Copy'.
3. Set Audio to be 'From WAV', and load the .wav you extracted in step 1.
4. In Video->Frame Rate..., choose the 'Change video and audio durations to match'.
5. File->Save as AVI... This will result in a large .avi file (because the audio is now uncompressed).
6. Process this new large .avi file in TMPGEnc via whatever way you normally do it.
7. The result _should_ be a well synched movie. As I said, I'm currently testing this method, and praying it finally solves the audio sync issues. If this fails, I will add step 6a) Enable the 'Do not frame rate convertion' in TMPGEnc to see if this helps. If this fails, I will modify step one to be 'Don't downsample the audio to 44.1KHz, leave it at 48KHz'... this creates an XVCD.

[SatStorm]

TMPGenc works like a fronter for Audio issues...
That's why it gives you the alternative to use external encoders like Lame of sample converters
So, the bad audio quality/downsampling ain't tmpgenc's fault!

The same I think is with CCE...

[House de Kris]

OK, I'm trying to understand here. So TMPGEnc is known to do a lousy job on sample rate conversion, so you do this and that and shove it into here, then to overcome sync issues you follow another half dozen steps as outlined by Daagar and hope that it works. And just a smidge of common sense implies that this is superior to using a single well written app that does it all in one mouse click? The fact that you have to go through all that hassle is not TMPGEnc's fault? Your logic fails me.

[SatStorm]

It is much simply really...
TMPGenc is an encoder. For picture has some built in rutines.
For audio, it use the windows built in capabilities. Those ones suck!
You can bypass this by simply add external encoders/sampleconverters. Then, you have no problems with lipsync etc...
Using tooLame for example as encoder and using SCMPX as sample converter, you have excellent results and not issues like lipsync, etc...

You only set TMPGenc once to use those externals and you are OK

[banjazzer]

TMPGEnc is not regarded as being good at downsampling audio. In every other respect I have found it to be excellent. However, if you don't feel like using it - don't. 8)

[jolo]

What I think House de Kris should do is write the new perfect application, that takes care of all video and audio formats end creates the perfect and best, foolproof audio and video. Also, just the entry of a single file name is needed.
Then post it and let us download it for free.

Don't understand you're point because you don't have one and are not hearing the comments.

Go purchase Panasonic or LSX, or some product, BUT make sure you use only a single product and use NO plug-ins, then report back.

[pmcx9]

@satstorm and banjazzer

you guys should expand on this guide for the rest of us to enjoy.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/tmpgencsvcd.htm

I have experienced sync problems but I haven't the time to play around unfortunately but would love to be able to covert my avi's to svcd flawlessly.

I can see by looking back through your postings you obviously know what you are both talking about.

Help the rest of us out.

[banjazzer]

It used to be relatively simple, when DivX had CBR mp3 audio. You just plugged your avi into TMPG and produced your SVCD. Now that is a rarity, so it is almost invariably necessary to save out your audio as an uncompressed wav. Since the best tool to do this is Virtualdub, it makes sense to use the conversion option at the same time, and resample to 44.1kHz. Having done that, provided the avi is in sync to start with, and has correct aspect ratio, all that remains is to choose source aspect ratio =1:1(VGA) and a Video arrange method which involves*keep aspect ratio*. Basically, this so for any DivX source.

The rest is just a matter of preference, ie what min and max bitrates you choose, whether you go for 2-pass VBR or CQ, number of discs, and of course, whether you prefer CCE.

All I would add is that for a few months when I started I never made a SVCD because each sample appeared way out of sync, although my VCDs were perfect. Fortunately, I finally found out it was because I was playing them in Zoom and Mediaplayer, and when I played with PowerDVD they were actually in sync. And so too they were when burned to SVCD. 8)

[Akai Rounin]

For my DVD rips I downsample audio with DVD2AVI when frameserving. For my TV captures, I simply make sure the audio sample rate is 44.1 KHz to start. I don't download videos of movies from the internet at all. Because of this, I have never had an audio sync problem with TMPGEnc. There is probably nothing at all wrong with using DVDx, CCE or FlaskMPEG, but I have found that using TMPGEnc as part of my DVD backup procedure has always worked fine.

HUN-YA!

Akai Rounin

[pmcx9]

Yep nice info guys.

I think I am beginning to understand - divx audio comes in various guises so Tmpgenc needs an uncompressed wav as a starting block because it is not clever enough to differentiate?

I have about 120gig sitting here of Divx movies and so to get cracking with CCE and Virtualdub.

[banjazzer]

divx audio comes in various guises so Tmpgenc needs an uncompressed wav as a starting block because it is not clever enough to differentiate?

We've only scratched the surface. Wait till you get a DivX with ac3 or ogg sound.

[pmcx9]

@banjazzer

Is this guide spot on then for divx to svcd?

http://www.vcdhelp.com/avitovcdfoolproofusingcce/

any changes you would make or tips you can give?

[banjazzer]

I can't really comment because I don't use CCE. The method I use is similar to the one found here: http://www.svcd.cc/index.htm

[House de Kris]

What I think House de Kris should do is write the new perfect application, that takes care of all video and audio formats end creates the perfect and best, foolproof audio and video. Also, just the entry of a single file name is needed.
Then post it and let us download it for free.

Don't understand you're point because you don't have one and are not hearing the comments.

Go purchase Panasonic or LSX, or some product, BUT make sure you use only a single product and use NO plug-ins, then report back.

I thank you jolo for the vote of confidence in my software ability. That is really quite a compliment. But, I don't feel that this is necessary at all. I've been using software that already exists that does just what you ask for. It can do audio sample rate conversion properly, unlike TMPGEnc. As stated by myself above, I have NEVER had any sync problems. Plus, it can perform video frame rate conversion from NTSC to PAL (or vice-versa) without all the jerkiness that TMPGEnc gives you. Why reinvent the wheel?

With respect to your second paragraph, when I translate this into English it would seem that you feel I have no point in this discussion. Just to be clear, the original poster was asking for advice on making a decision between TMPGEnc or CCE when converting from an AVI. Unfortunately, details about this AVI were not given. It could be a DivX or could be from a miniDV camcorder, we just don't know. At any rate, since this is a forum to share help, I offered the helpful advice to avoid TMPGEnc IF there is an audio sample rate conversion involved. Since I've never used CCE, I could not predict if it has the same failings or not. Note, this was not a slam on TMPGEnc. For video only uses, I really enjoy TMPGEnc for its visual quality and all the tweaks it allows the user to mess around with.

So jolo, have you contributed anything in this thread to help jokerman with the decision between CCE and TMPGEnc?

[Tired of the Bull]

TMPGEnc and CCE both give very good video results and personally I use 48KHz for my audio and all my DVD players use it fine.

My only major problem with TMPEnc is "SPEED". If I max out my settings for "DC component precision" and "Motion search precision" the encoding of 2 pass VBR takes way too long. It only gets worse if I have to throw a filter in as well.

The plus side for TMPGEnc is ease of use and features. It's much easier for me to control the output of the encoder and to do the necessary steps that ensure I get files I can easily throw on a CD.

CCE is very fast with a wonderful output but I feel less in control with it and the process for using it feels clumsy to me.

I've tried many other encoders; LIGOS, Main Concept, etc without finding anything to give quality comparable to TMPGEnc or CCE.

If "House de Kris" would be willing to name the software he uses I would love to try it out. I've seen many apps based on the LIGOS encoder but none that performed for me like the one Kris refers to so I'm very interested in giving it a try.

[SatStorm]

Wow, this is a old post, how you remember it?

I never had any problems using TMPGenc and audio, both upsampling and downsampling. There was problems only when the source was broken somehow, even if in the original playback that didn't show.
I can't understand why is so difficult to people download 2 small proggies, both less 500kb, unzip them on tmpgenc directory and point them as externals once and for all! Is it so difficult? I guess yes! It has something to do with the way of thinking... Maybe the school system produce lazy brains, who knows... I always talk with people and when I suggest alternatives or different ways to do something, I get an answer like: "This is no written somewhere, so I don't follow it. You are not the proper person to speak for this. You didn't study those stuff, so how do you have an opinion? You talking b***Sh*t, the expert point that .....". The correct responce would be "Interesting, I'll test it to see it myself". Different prospect of thinking...

Back to our subject:
TMPGEnc with the use of external encoders/sample converters, always decompress to .wav anything (even another wave file!) and then feed the externals to do there part of the job done.
Generall speaking, CBR modes are better for mpeg when we using them. MP3 VBR, divx and xvid both using if we want to, ain't exactly the best source for later convertion/proccess. There are end formats, not supposed to re-mastered or re-proccessed.
Frameservers always helps for those situations. Use them and most of the lipsync problems gonna disappear.