Why is capping so different when done from a VCR?

[Macros746]

Alright folks...now I'm frusterated. I've captured MANY TV shows with no issues. I have a 1 gig Thunderbird and a Radeon AIW 7200. I can capture to almost any resolution without dropping a single frame. But the moment I start to capture a video I drop frames and then I get a datarate error. It occurs with both AVI_io and Virtualdub. I thought that the datarate meant that I was being to ambitious capturing at 640 x 480 (I use the MJEG codec set to 18 by the by) so I bumped it down to 352 x 480 and still got the same error. I don't understand why it is bloody different than capturing from the TV. If I hook a work around so it thinks it is capping directly from the TV will it help? Do I just have a crappy VCR? HELP!!!

Me

[SLK001]

You don't mention what you are capping. Is it old VCR tapes that you are trying to convert, or is it commercial videos?

If it is old VCR tapes, your problem may be a poor horizontal sync pulse that your capture card is trying to use as a reference (mine does and it has all kinds of problems with old tapes). In a VCR tape, the high frequency is the first component to seriously degrade and the highest freq component of the video signal is the horizontal sync pulse. If the card can't find the pulse, then you will have the problems that you state, plus, you will also loose audio/video sync (I had one tape where the audio was as much as a minute out of sync at the end of a half hour!). For this problem, you will need a Time Base Corrector (TBC) to "bolster" the sync back to where your card can recognize it (or where it "should" be).

If it is old commercial tapes, the same problem above occurs, plus there is probably Macrovision on the tape. Some (if not all) TBCs will give you the added benefit of stripping off the Macrovision.

But, you say, my TV doesn't have any problems with these tapes! This is because a TV has kind of a "if you're not here by this time, then I'll go without you" circuit. You can sometimes see this with a really bad tape, where the edges aren't always as straight as they should be.

[Macros746]

Thanks for your response....very informative...and still frustrating So, where do I get one of these Time Base Correctors and how much will it set me back. I am capturing a very clean copy of a commercial tape (don't worry moral freaks...the movie in question is out of print and I copied it from a friend) I may try one of my store bought tapes to see if there is a marked difference. If it is overall quality that affects the capture then I will need a TBC anyway since I am supposed to capture my Grandma's home movies (circa 1955) to VCD......I'll DEFINITELY get errors with those

Thanks again....more info please,

Macros

[macleod]

I am in the same boat as macros746. I have been wanting to capture old (1970'ish) and newer home movies from both a 4 head VCR and from a analogue camcorder. At first I was VERY impressed with the results, however, when I did a side by side comparision(queued up both videos to the same point on my DVD player and camcorder, ran them through the TV and switched channels to get the camcorder and then dvd player), the difference was really shocking!

I have a 1.2g computer and am doing all my capturing through a ATI AIW TV tuner card. I am sorta thinking that the quality loss is due to capturing originally at 352X240(NTSC VCD) BR 3.0 and then having nero reencode to SVCD 480X480.

Before I spend more time on this, would the picture get me to S-VHS if I captured 480X480 in AVI? If so, are there any freebie programs that will do that with my hardware (I tried TTEMG -or whatever its called), but each time I tried it it told me unsupported video format. I also tried commerical videos and it looked horrible (like something captured on SLP/EP from 20 years ago that sat out in the sun).

[Macros746]

Believe it or not Mcleod....I can actually answer some of your questions despite having my own issues. You should capture at least to 352 x 480 (for commercial videos you can go as high as 640 x 480) You should capture using the MJEG codec and MOST importantly DO NOT use Nero to encode your SVCD. You want to use TMPGenc or CCE to encode...anything else is going to be of a lower quality (arguably Panasonic Flask would be okay too) but Nero has a VERY poor quality encoder and that is part of the reason you are getting the results you are getting.

Macros

(p.s. if you capture at a higher resolution remember to frame serve through Virtualdub and use Precise bicubic resizing to get it to the right size....352 x 240 for VCD or 480 x 480 for SVCD....)

[macleod]

Thank you for the reply! I am going to give that a shot and see what happens. I have heard CCE from people, but admittedly, I have no idea what it is our how to get it (didn't see it in the tools section). I've tried to do the 640X480 in TTEMPG, but I get an unsupported video format error???? I think that it is because it is SVCD quality and my 30 day timer ran out. I probably need to reset it.

Again, I appreciate your help on this. I wish I could return the favor because it sounds like we are sorta in the same boat. I did another post right after this one where people were a little upset about what the SVCD's end up looking like. It is a little disenchanting at times. All that work for poor quality. Who knows, when I try your suggestions maybe it will do it for me and I'll be able to tell everyone how my SVCD's work great :P

Thanks again for the advice!

[SLK001]

Use a search engine to locate TIME BASE CORRECTOR on the internet. There are a few companies that specialize in this type of thing. For simple home movie VHS to VCD/SVCD/DVD you will need only a TBC that only restores the syncs. For pirating commercial VCR tapes, you will need a TBC that also strips out Macrovision.

Just remember, a VHS tape has resolution of 352 x 240, AT BEST. You CANNOT get your actual quality to be any better than this with ANY type of capture. What you need to do, is capture so that you don't LOOSE any quality in the transfer, because the VHS tapes will soon degrade beyond the ability to retrieve the info. I recommend that you capture at FULL D1 DVD resolution (720 x 480) with a fairly high bitrate (I use 9000kbps), then transcode to a lower VBR (~4000kbps AVG) and ARCHIVE the results for when you finally get a DVD recorder. In the meantime, you can additionally transcode them for presentation on a VCD that granny can enjoy now.

[Macros746]

Macleod,
I find that really good quality is difficult but not impossible. One of your problems is that you are capturing to a lower resolution that you want your final SVCD to be. I think the best explaination I have heard for what you are trying to do is this: You have a medium sized plate and you cover it with marbles...then you get a bigger plate and you poor the same number of marbles onto the larger plate....it isn't going to look the same right? You should always capture at a higher resolution (or at least the same) as the end goal resolution. I'm curious, why are you trying for a 640 x 480 SVCD? Why not stick to 480 x 480? The reason I ask is that if the source isn't perfect (i.e. A DVD rip) then the increased resolution isn't going to help you and may hurt you. As for the error you are getting in TMPGenc....are you just opening the .avi file in TMPGenc or are you frameserving from another program? The process should look like this: Capture using virtualdub and either the MJEG or Huffy codec ...capture to at least 352 x 480 but 480 x 480 or 640 x 480 is better) Frameserve using Virtualdub and resize to standard SVCD or VCD size using Bicubic resize filter. Load up TMPGenc and, after selecting the framserved file, load the SVCD template (if it hasn't expired) and go....and voila! If you have any questions let me know. I know all about the encoding/buring part of VCD/SVCD making...I just can't capture from a ******* VCR!!!

Good luck,

Macros

[Macros746]

WHOA! I have just been checking out TBC and they are VERY expensive. Surely there is another solution. I'm not looking for a perfect DVD quality video here...I just want to be able to capture and burn to acceptable quality...hell I just want to be able to capture. I KNOW there are people in this forum that capture from VHS on a regular basis...help!! What is your secret?

Macros

[MikeV]

Check out the SIMA products. They have several products that should work for you. Address is WWW.SIMACORP.COM Their products are sold at CircuitCity, BestBuy, and other locations. They are also inexpensive $50-200.

[Macros746]

Thanks, I'm checking out Sima as we speak. But I really think this should be possible with the setup I have now. I have seen people with lesser systems than mine posting about their successes.....there must be a way to do it. I'll buy more equipment if I must but.....

macros

[Plant_Guy]

Let me help,

First off, here's a site about capturing from VHS that might help :
http://www.danhendricks.com/index.php?page=capture.html

Second, your capture troubles can probably be traced back to your VCR Of this, I am sure. Capturing from different units yields vastly different results. You need a good VCR for playback and you'll be set. As far as Macrovision is concerned, it is legal to buy a video stabilizer to get rid of those pesky artifacts during playback That should set you back a whopping $50

Third, before I go back into the swamp, let me agree with those who advocate maximum resolution during capture before compression. Here is an illustrative experiment. Stretch a ballon and draw a smiley face on it. Let go and take a look. Now draw a really small smiley on the unstretched balloon and stretch it out. Which one looks better? You get the idea. Now for concrete advice: capture at 352x480 or 704x480, at 5x VCD bitrate or better, depending on disk space (I use 8064k ) in mpeg-1 format (yes, I said mpeg-1) Guess what? TMPGEnc will be able to open it directly :P Now just encode it using kwag's high quality templates, and you're good to go! http://www.kvcd.net

That's all folks!

TomG. - aka Plant_Guy

[ironwood321]

Hi,
If you could try this Standards Converter / TBC you get two functions in one box for £300 they will even ship internationally

http://www.gthelectronics.com/

[macleod]

thanks for the information on this! I haven't had a chance to check out (at length) this site or anyone posts for a few days. I think I know what my problem is for capturing good quality video's. My card (AIW ATI tv tuner card) captures (NTSC) at XXX x 240. Basically the horizontal lines are half of what they should be. Even if I were to capture at 704 (or whatever the highest on the card is) by x 240, the final output still isn't going to be "perfect". I think that either I need to get another capture card that will capture 480 horizontal lines or find a way to make it (like a registry tweek or something). Am I crazy in thinking this way??????

I have been pulling in from the ATI card to highest AVI format I can (using huffy codec) and then using TTEMGC (or whatever the heck it is called) to convert it from 740 x 240 to SVCD 480x480. My latest masterpiece has all of the logical things on for filters. God willing, it will pass the wife's test (she is the one that tells me that it isn't as crisp as vhs since I am biased).

[MOVIEGEEK]

Or you can get Cyberlink PowerVCRII($99-129 US) and capture mpegs(up to 720x480 & 9000kbps) with lots of features and great video quality.

[Macros746]

Hello all,
Thanks for all of the input. I just wanted to let everyone know that the issue was in fact, the VCR. I'm now capturing some gorgeous stuff. Thanks again.

Macros

[vhelp]

afternoon all.

Just thought i'd jump in here. This is in reference to those capping VHS
source materials, as I've read above correctly?. . .
1 - First, i wanted to say that you CANNOT get SVCD quality from an VHS source.
This was just mentioned above somewhere. SVCD is 480x480 resolution, that
is, the SOURCE is either 480x480 or much higher, ie, 640x480** or 704x480, etc.
You are better off making VHS into VCDs 352x480
2 - Those SIMA products, (I have one) don't do didly-squat for your VHS. All
they are good for is dubbing from one VCR to another VCR, and that it! It
will do nothing else for ya. Honestly!

I've talked about this before:
VCRs:
* not all VCRs are made perfect.
Some produce excetional quality on your TV
set, while others proudce fair, and other yet, well, poorer.
* MODE of taping to VHS tapes:
SP yeilds the best quality, but only allows
you 2 hours tops, while EP yields the poorest quality, but allows 8 hours
recording time. Now, you can figure out why SP mode captures are better quality
than those tapes done in EP mode.
*1 Quality:
for Source materials, this is important. If you're recording from
an attenna, even in SP mode, your milage in quality will be limited. Forget
about trying for those EP recorded mode tapes, UNLESS you have personal family
stuff on them. Then you have no choise but to shoot for the best.
*2 how old is the tape you have recorded on is also important. Time flies so
quickly these days. And, quality will worsen quickly.
* VHS vs. SVHS:
VHS has an approx resolution of 352x240, where SVHS has up to x400, giving
you better quality captures form SVHS tapes. Remeber, better quality can be
achieved when you record to tape in SP mode. Never record in EP mode if you
goal is to someday capture and encode to VCD/SVCD. You have a better chance
at making an SVCD from an SP recorded tape via SVHS VCR than you do w/ a VHS.
* 19 micron heads in standard VCR units:
as for these types, this is what they offer:
--> ability to PLAY svhs recorded tapes in a regular VCR, at 352x240 resolution.
--> some also offer the abilitiy to play tapes recorded in EP mode in ENHANCED
quality. In looking for a good 2nd VCR, look for these two. You wont be
dissapointed. Then, you could do all those 8 hour recordings to VCD (NOT SVCD)
the 19 micron heads does NOT make SVCD (or SVHS) quality!! So, don't be fooled!

that's about it for now all.
-vhelp

** by 640x480, i don't mean, if you "capture" from your VHS at 640x480. This
doesn't make it SVCD... or shall I say, SVCD quality! So, please don't miss
understand that by capturing a low resolution source VHS' 352x240, you'll
be actually getting SVCD out of it. You're misstaken

[Plant_Guy]

Ahem,

Like I said, its probably the VCR.

TomG. - aka Plant_Guy

[Macros746]

I'm going to need to invest in a NEW cheap VCR now.....although for now I am content using my little TV/VCR...my computer seems to dig the signal from that little monster.

Macros746

[Cleoo]

I have old betamax tapes that I've been trying to capture. I've broken up the 45 min capture into four sections. (AVI files). I've noticed that the framerates for each of the sections vary by hundredths...I set the capture rate at 29.97 fps, but I'm getting 29.95, 29.94, 29.54, 29.93...

I imagine that the VHS problem applies to Betamax as well.

I tried to join the four parts with virtualdub in the current AVI format, but it refuses to join as the framerates are different.

Then I converted the AVI's into MPG1 with TMPGenc, then joined them. It worked. However, as I'm watching the VCD I've burned with Nero 5.0, I've noticed that there is quite a bit of blockiness, particularly with the initial lower rate capture.

Why wouldn't the betamax capture stay at 29.97 fps??? This sucks.

The AVI captures were very good quality however after converting them to MPG1, they look relatively bad. No audio sync problems though.

Any clues on why this happens??

[macleod]

using one of the suggetions above, I looked at powervcr II and downloaded the trial version. I was amazed at what I could do with this software. I looked at the trial version and was able to capture at DVD resolution (although I realize that for my purposes that is not the idal way to capture) with NO frame loss and I used mpeg-2. I played with it a little more and was amazed at the stuff it lets you do.

Instead of paying the $140 price tag, I went on ebay and purchased it for $10.00 (not a misprint, actually $10.00 )(plus $5.00 shipping) and got powervcr II AND power dvd. I'll be receiving it pretty soon and will let everyone know how it goes.