480x480 avi grab encoded w/TMPGEnc high motion blockyness

[majunbubu]

I will capture video at 480x480 NTSC with the following settings/software:

AMD Duron 1Ghz
256mb Ram
40GB HDD UDMA100
Abit KG7 MB
WindowsXP Pro
Using a Hauppauge WinTV capture card

VirtualDub to capture using Huffyuv no filters enabled using YUY2 mode no frames dropped during capture
Use VirtualDub to edit out commercials.
Save AVI using Direct Stream Copy of both video and audio.

Use TMPGEnc Plus to encode.
Use a custom SVCD template.
2-Pass VBR
Minimum bit rate is 300
Maximum is 2520
Avg is 2200
Source video is set to interlaced
Encode mode is set to interlaced
Motion detect is set to highest quality
no filters enabled

Use Nero to burn mpg to create SVCD.

Now I usually have to encode high motion grabs at 480x240. When I encode with the same settings above minus changing the source and encode video settings to non-interlace I do not get blockyness.

Now with 480x480 the video looks great compared to when I grab at 480x240 except for blockyness on high motion areas that I do not get at 480x240.The blockyness is not terribly bad but it is enough to be anonying.

The funny thing is that the source AVI does not have any blockyness and as far as I can tell looks like the original source be it TV/VHS. I am thinking the problem is with my encoding and I don't know what I am doing wrong so any help or pointers would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Majunbubu

[Plant_Guy]

Ready for a shot it the dark? ---> I think you may be shooting yourself in the foot with the lower bit rate value. Take it up to 1000 and let it rip!

Plant_Guy

[majunbubu]

I will give that a try. LOL I setup those bit rates from a friend who is doing this video stuff as well but he can't capture at 480x480. Will I still be able to fit a 45min TV episode onto one 80min cdr with a minimum bit rate set to 1000?

Thanks,
Majunbubu

[rhw]

I had a similar problem with high motion blockiness/artifacts when encoding interlaced AVI (captured from MiniDV camera) for encoding/burning/viewing on TV (which has interlaced display).

I capture (with Pinnacle DV Studio7) at DV resolution (720 x 480) and then resize to 480 x 480 in TMPGE when encoding.

This is what I did and my results have been pretty good.

Add the "de-interlace" filter & set to either "double" or "Even-Odd (Field)" type but leave your output and source mode as "interlaced" (don't ask me why this works, I only know that for me, it does).

You could try using the block noise reduction feature set at somewhere around 25-35. I've tried it with & without, but can't really see a whole lot of difference.

One other thing, if your DVD player will handle it and you have the space on your CDR it never hurts to bump the bitrate up higher. I use the Auto VBR setting and set the quality slider no lower than 65%, and max bitrate at 4000-4500 and minimum at 1500.

Of course, these settings are a real "space" eater and I can only get about 30 or so minutes on one disc.

Really can't say if this will work for you, but after much trial and error (and I'm still experimenting) this is the best I've come up with.

[Plant_Guy]

The bulk of the space taken up is determined by the average setting. It should fit just fine, but if it does not, then try inching down on the average setting until it does.

Plant_Guy

[majunbubu]

I did bump up my min bit rate. I did a grab and encoded it and to be honest I still have the blockyness. I am going to try what you recommended rhw but the one thing is I can't grab at 720x480 it says my card wont support it. So I am going to encode another 480x480 with the filter you mentioned enabled. Hopefully this will result in better quality.

Majunbubu

[majunbubu]

Well guys I tried all of the above and am still getting blockyness on the high motion scenes. But my raw avi's sources look beautiful. Would frameservering out to TMPGEnc have an effect on this problem? Thanks again for any help.

Majunbubu

[vhelp]

majunbubu,

what are you capturing from:
* vhs/cable/sat/dvd, etc.
* and, whats the quality of these capture source (NOT talking about the
AVI quaity when you play it) but the actuall source itself.

Also, TV shows, etc. have variations in the interlacing thing. Some
content are interlaced, others are not, while others still have strange
interlacing. All this will add to your final encode quaity (blocks)

playing your AVI will always show greatest quaity, and NO blocks, cause
its not an encoded mpeg file. So, forget about that it looking good.
Concentrate on your capture/encoding process from start to finish.

I captured from my DV cam. I record to miniDV tapes, and later, when I
have the time, I capture (mostly) via analog instead of firewire transfers
because there IS a quality hit with DV. hint, hint, its the color space
in the DV compression. That's why 1 hour of DV firewire transfer is
~14gigs. So far, nothing seems to beat the good old analog capture route
Color is more preserved. Final encoding quality is far better. etc.
Oh, and I capture at 352x480. That's all that is needed for a really good
VCD (or better yet, CVD) but again, this is all dependant on the
quality of the source and then some.

I do post samples, and I have a couple up right now, case you want to check
them out. These are a bit outdated now - late week or so. I'm ready to
replace w/ other encoding samples that you can check out after viewing
this link here: DV Camcorder - R U using your's to capture?

-vhelp

[majunbubu]

vhelp,
I am capturing from cable mostly and a few VHS which was recorded from cable in SP. As to the quality, it is about average cable tv quality of course some channels have more noise to the picture then others.

The part the stumps me is I can take the same clip from VHS and capture it at 480x240 and encode it and it looks good when setup as a SVCD. I mean I could live with the picture quality.

Now I will capture the same footage off of the same VHS at a resolution of 480x480 and encode it with the same settings out side of changing the source to interlace and encode option to interlace and have the blocks show up in the same high motion secens. Now you are probably wondering why I just don't go with 480x240 since it works and I am happy with the results. Well I want the best picture I can get out of the Hauppauge card. And just looking at the low motion scenes on a 480x480 capture you can see a better image quality then the 480x240 capture.

I just can't seem to pin down what in my encoding process I can tweak to remove the blocks that appear in the high motion scenes. I don't know if I need more IP picture's being inputted into the encoding or if I should try grabbing the originial source with a different compression perhaps PicVideo's MJPEG will resolve this I don't know.

I am pretty sure I am not the only one who has had this problem and I am just searching for solutions that have helped other people so I can try and cut down my trial and error time so I can start capturing and encoding the upcoming Farscape season and be comfortable in capturing at and encoding at a resolution of 480x480.

So if anyone has any more hints, tips, or tweaks I am all ears.

Thanks again for everyones help in this matter.

Majunbubu

[Heywould3]

I have a few comments.. One thing and may be the quickest solution. I knowyour not going t olike this BUT the resolution of cable or any standard TV is 320x240 NTSC native resolution so encoding at higher res will not increas the quality. I KNOW thats not what you want to hear. and its not a solution. BUT from what i saw about your computer specs your pushing the limit of your computer using that bit rate and resolution. I have a 2000+ XP and 512 DDR with GF vid and at those settings if i am doing things in hte back ground i will loose a frame or two and get macro blocks or blocks in the vid. I knwo you are not saying that you are loosing frames BUT you are getting het blocks and that is caused by two things. macrovision ( not your problem) or error in the conversion.. jsut for a test.. use CBR and set it to 1150 for example.. jsut to see if it does it.. ALSO turn OFF all background apps AND turn off all powersaving devices like screen saver and the settings to turn off monitor and HD after a set time.. that will cause the computer to try to shut off HD and then turn back on causing a momentary glitch in the encoding.. and it will happen after a set time which may be y its hapening in the midle of your work..

thses are just thoughts hope it helps

[ratt794]

2 Very important Points here:

1) The SVCD Standard is somewhat low on bitrate - it should have been at least 3000K Video or maybe 3200K. 2200 average WILL produce blockiness with high motion no matter what you do. VBR does help but not a lot in fitting more on a CD.

2) NTSC Broadcast Resolution goes out to 4.2 MHz Video Bandwidth - this works out to about SVCD resolution (Actually it is slightly higher). Some Cable TV companies use 1/2 D1 resolution or 352 x 480 for Digital Cable.
VHS tape has at best 2.5 MHz of Video Bandwith. When capture from VHS 352 x 480 is enough to retain the quality. It is better to use 352x480 then to go 480x480 with the same bitrate.

Now with that said if you want to get 45 min on a CD then what you will need is a non-standard SVCD. Use MPEG-2 352x480 with the Maximum set to 2700, average 2000, minimum 300. Don't worry about the minimum setting as TMPG will only go this low on still images and this does not affect the quality. Capture also at the same reslution 352x480.
Make sure you encode interlaced and with the proper field order.

[ratt794]

2 Very important Points here:

1) The SVCD Standard is somewhat low on bitrate - it should have been at least 3000K Video or maybe 3200K. 2200 average WILL produce blockiness with high motion no matter what you do. VBR does help but not a lot in fitting more on a CD.

2) NTSC Broadcast Resolution goes out to 4.2 MHz Video Bandwidth - this works out to about SVCD resolution (Actually it is slightly higher). Some Cable TV companies use 1/2 D1 resolution or 352 x 480 for Digital Cable.
VHS tape has at best 2.5 MHz of Video Bandwith. When capture from VHS 352 x 480 is enough to retain the quality. It is better to use 352x480 then to go 480x480 with the same bitrate.

Now with that said if you want to get 45 min on a CD then what you will need is a non-standard SVCD. Use MPEG-2 352x480 with the Maximum set to 2700, average 2000, minimum 300. Don't worry about the minimum setting as TMPG will only go this low on still images and this does not affect the quality. Capture also at the same reslution 352x480.
Make sure you encode interlaced and with the proper field order.

[vhelp]

majunbubu,

yeah, i'm ALL for Farscape captures and encodes. I'm actually
thinking about making VCDs of them, (and maybe my favorite,
CVD in addition to VCDs) So, I can't wait either.
I forgot when it suppose to start (new season) but, tonight,
I was a bit disapointed in NOT seeing it air
I do know that they put the Farscape in great quality. AND,
that adds to the final quality of any encodes, be it VCD or SVCD.
I have a few Farscape episodes left still on my miniDV tapes.
Maybe I'll do a quick encode and post a sample in Standard VCD
format.

Anyways, I don't know what you problem seems to be with NAILing
down the QUALity in your final encode!

Frameserving doesn't cause blockness in your encodes.
I just think that its the SOURCE quality you are capturing, or
your odd frame size, 480x240. Very odd indead!!

Anyways, to help you out in the least, I have an idea. Ok,
Cheers is on right now. 11:20pm and also 11:30pm. If you want,
do a capture of it and encode and let me know how the quality
came out on it. On this show, the quality is very good. So
capturing shouldn't cause you any beaf!!

Let me know if you want to do this, and I'll keep an open eye
out for your response on it's final quality.

-vhelp

[majunbubu]

All,
Thanks for all the input. I will probably go with what you said ratt and vhelp as to forget about capturing at 480x480 and work on 352x480.

Vhelp,
I did not get a chance to get the grab of Cheers since I could not get into the post forum till this morning. As to Farscape the new season begins on June 7th (Friday). I will probably try and capture it live once I figure out what the best settings are for me to capture and encode with.

Do you think I should just use a VCD format to encode to with me capturing Farscape episodes off of TV? Because I no when I capture and encode at that resolution very very few problems. I guess I am just stuck on thinking capturing more frames=better quality are at least same quality as the original source.

Do you have a link to some of your encodes I can take a look at that you have done in either SVCD or VCD? I would like to see what they look like comparably to mine and also what source did you capture them from.

Heywould3,
Thanks for the info you are probably right and as to me not liking what I hear...its ok. I am now to the point where I will take any advice and give up my misconceptions as to what I think would make a good capture and encode *cough* since I am still a "newbie" at it


Thanks All for all the input

Majunbubu

[drak23]

Hello All:
I followed this thread with interest as I have similar objectives and I look forward to trying out the recommendations made here (although I'm beginning to wonder if ratcheting down the SVCD bit rate to get 45 minutes on a CDR is any better quality than VCD - guess I'll have to test and compare). One question for Ratt794 (or anyone else) - you said "encode ... with the proper field order". How do you determine the proper field order?

Thanks,

Drak23

[majunbubu]

Update:

I just finished grabbing a VHS movie I had (Finial Episode of Star Trek Next Gen) at 480x480. Now keep in mind that this source is high quality (production hi-fi VHS). I encoded things alittle different. I used the wizard in TMPGenc which I found out goes through and samples the avi file and determines the field order. Which I come to find out that in all of my encodes that I was recieving poor quality I had the field orders all screwed up.
Anyways after it would determine the field order and I move onto the next screen I would go in and customize the bit rate, the quality motion settings, I would also bump up my IP picture setting to 5 and uncheck the option on the Quantinize tab for the pixel blah blah option then I would put a check in the block smooth option with the default of 35 value.
I would then if the file encode the file. Came out beautiful now though I could only fit roughly 35min of video onto 1 cdr so I had to spawn the movie onto 2 disks. It looks like I will have to play with the settings if I plan on grabbing live TV at these settings.
Also some of the sections I grabbed where bigger then 2gb and was running into sound issues even on an NTFS formated partition. What I did was I just frameserved the avi to TMPGenc and that resolved my sound issue with hardly any gain in encoding time or loss of quality.

Anyways hope this info helps anyone reading it.

Majunbubu