Best way to Multicast CATV across campus with IP?

[KHerron]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and hope I can find some insight from your experienced members.
I hope I posted this in the right category, but please excuse me, if I did not.

First, let me explain what we have:

We currently have a 60 acre school campus, with approximately 130 classrooms and 60 offices scattered across 25 different buildings. In our mainframe computer room, we have a small Head-End consisting of 12 cable boxes from our local CATV provider and 2 DTV receivers. We are taking the composite output of the 12 converter boxes and receivers, and re-modulating them out across our coax network to all the classrooms and offices that have TV sets. We are using channels 2-16 to stay on the LOW end of the 540mhz coaxial backbone. We also have 1 T-Channel from the Production classroom that sends their feed in reverse back to the Head-End that is then, re-modulated back out across the campus on channel 15. Channel 16 is a direct feed from a Blu-Ray player in the computer room.

Over the Past 2 years, most of the classrooms have had their TV's replaced with an HD Projector that does not have a CATV input. So, we have purchased low cost converters, and placed them in each classroom and connected to the projectors Composite inputs. Most of the offices still have TV's or have been upgraded to newer Flat screen HD TV's. Currently, this setup is working fine in most areas. However, as time goes on, our coaxial "Hard-Line" has been damaged in places due to construction or grounds repair or is just slowly degrading due to age.

What we would like to do is: Abandon the analog Head-End along with the coaxial back-bone and possibly even the individual coax cables to each room, and replace with Multicast encoders for each channel. All classrooms currently have a computer at the teachers desk that is already connected to the HD projector. This would eliminate the converter boxes in the classrooms. We understand that the teacher will have to use a player such as VLC or something compatible on their computer, and the TV's in the offices would probably require a Dencoder or set-top box of some sort. Teachers and Staff would be given a Guide that has the Multicast IP address for each channel, and would be able to bring it up on the computer then send to the projector. Also, we are looking to provide better than 720. The director has seen a sample at this resolution and was not very pleased, so we are needing to get 1080. Also, this way the production classroom could just Multicast from there, and the reverse channel would no longer be needed.

So my questions are:

1. Is this a possibility?
2. What would the best approach be to accomplish this?
3. What equipment would you suggest?
4. How cost effective would this task be?

We are currently looking at this equipment:

• Antrica ANT-4000E and ANT-4000D @ $750 per channel (Not including Decoders or Set-Top Boxes)
• Drake Digital PEG-NE24-IP-C @ $1500 per channel (Not including Decoders or Set-Top Boxes)

Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Thank you for your time and information.

Kirk

[Bjs]

Ouch ... reminds me of the campus in canberra ... what a nightmare that was but I lived, lol, talk about a mess with no upgrade path.

You need a plan first not generalities as we have no idea of the mapping involved.

1: A topographical view of campus (from above) showing the layout

2: A popup box linked to each building indicating the number of outputs involved

3: Location of production room

These are end points

4: Location of "Head-End"

Add the want and delivery of 1080p via ip

Using these to calculate bandwidth required should provide an answer to solving the problem

There are 2 methods that might just fit the task

Then it's calculate the cost of the upgrade.

[usually_quiet]

If you have not already done so, you need to contact your cable TV provider to be sure that what you plan to do meets with their approval. If the planned changes violate your institution's service contract with them, they could decide to terminate service until you agree to do things their way.

[JVRaines]

Why not just cut a deal with your cable provider for HD on-demand programming to all of your locations? You can set up your own media server for Production Classroom offerings. There really is no need for "channels" if you're going digital.

[Cornucopia]

Is the idea to have "on-demand" offerings? or "live-realtime-streaming"? (or both?)

Scott

[KHerron]

Thank you to everyone who has replied!
We appreciate your help on this matter.

I will try to answer all your questions here:

@BJS

1) Could not create the Popup boxes as you suggested, but the drawing does show the number of classrooms per building.
2) the Production Room is in the Munnerlyn Building.
3) the Head-End is in the Bryan Library building

I do need to add that we currently have Fiber to ALL buildings from the Bryan Library. We also have spare fiber that could be used "ONLY" for this task, or we also have the ability for it to have it's own VLAN.

@usually_quiet
1) Our Local provider is already aware of what we are doing. We have tried to get them involved, but they will only provide 1 source of signal to the campus. Their plant ends at the entrance of the school, and has already cost us $10000's just to have it extended to the Bryan Library. Their statement is: "We will provide you with signal, but you have to distribute it on your own". Also, it would require their converter boxes in every classroom. Rental on the boxes alone would run close to $2000 per month. We are not re-broadcasting to the public, or reselling their signal, so we are within their guidelines!

@ JBRaines
See answer above

@Cornucopia
Mainly "Live-Realtime-Streaming". The channels we have selected to re-broadcast from the CATV provider are: 6 of our Local Channels, CNN, Fox News, The Weather Channel, ESPN1, ESPN2. The channels from the DTV receivers are 2 Foreign Language channels. Then we have the Blu-Ray and the Production feed.

As I stated before, the coax backbone is a system we installed ourselves, not the CATV provider. We have 550MHz backbone hard-line from the Library to each building's IDF closet, where we currently have Amplifiers/Splitters that feed each classroom/office in that building. Also in these IDF's is our Fiber switches and patch panels that feeds each classroom/office with it's own data outlet. Every building currently has at least 6 count fiber, some have 12 count. For the most part only 2 fibers are being used, so there are spare fibers. We are not looking at a 2-way system here, so really only one 1 fiber would be needed if this is the way to go.

Again, thank you all for your replies.

[usually_quiet]

I have a SiliconDust HD Homerun Prime CableCARD tuner. (The CableCARD is rented from my provider.) It has 3 tuners and can serve 3 PCs at a time over a wired home network. SiliconDust also has a dual tuner HD Homerun Connect for over-the-air TV which can serve 2 PCs at one time over a wired home network. SiliconDust's HDHomeRun View software allows tuner control for watching any channel that is offered without copy-once protection, which happens to be everything in my Comcast package at present. They are working on a solution for viewing copy-once channels.

I suggest that you talk to SiliconDust to see if they have any commercial products you can use for your application. The products I mentioned are from their consumer product line. I know nothing about their commercial product line.

[pandy]

CATV to IP is not a problem (ordinary cable card for PC is capable to receive transponder and expose it structure over IP) - problem is with CA (Conditional Access) and how cable operator see this in legal perspective.

[usually_quiet]

I looked at SiliconDust's Corporate product line for multicasting TV over a network. SiliconDust's commercial OTA tuners for multicasting are the TECH4-2US (2 tuners) and TECH4-8US-2X4 (8 tuners). SiliconDust's commercial CableCARD tuner is the TECH3-6CC-3X2. It has 6 tuners and uses 2 CableCARDs. It is essentially 2 HDHomerun Primes, but it supports multicasting, which the HDHomerunPrime does not. This is a legal solution officially approved by the US cable industry. However, thanks to a decision Microsoft made last year, there is currently a problem with viewing cable TV on a PC related to copy-once and copy-never protection on some channels.

Copy-never protection can only be applied to premium channels like HBO and Showtime, which your institution does not plan to multicast. The FCC requires cable companies to tag local over-the-air broadcast channels as copy-freely, so they would not be a problem. However, all other channels are eligible for copy once protection if the channel's owner or the cable operator wants to do that. So, even if your cable provider is not currently applying copy-once protection to any of the cable-only channels that your institution wants to multicast, this could change at any time. Copy-once and copy-never channels must be streamed over the network using Cable Labs approved encryption, and viewed with Cable Labs approved software.

While there are several programs which can be used for watching streamed copy-freely channels, currently the only Cable Labs approved viewing software for copy-once and copy-never channels is Windows Media Center for PCs running Windows 8.1 Professional and Windows 7. ...but Microsoft decided not to support Windows Media Center for Windows 10 and is no longer selling it for Windows 8.1 Pro. SiliconDust is working on their own solution on the consumer side for viewing copy-once and copy-never channels, but it has not yet been certified by Cable Labs, and I don't know if it will work for multicasting.

[KHerron]

CATV to IP is not a problem (ordinary cable card for PC is capable to receive transponder and expose it structure over IP) - problem is with CA (Conditional Access) and how cable operator see this in legal perspective.

@pandy, thanks for your reply. As I mentioned above, our local provider is completely aware of what and how we are doing things here on campus.
Other than the ESPN package, non of the channels we are broadcasting across campus are considered Premium channels. Also, they do come by here about once every 18 months or so and walk around campus to make sure there is no Egress or signal leakages or reverse issues coming from the campus.

Also, if we were able to go IP, their network team would be involved to also test our network for any possible exterior access, as we have already presented the concept to them. And I can tell you, that the firewall in this place is tighter than a fleas ass getting a colonoscopy.

Just so everyone understands the legal aspect of this project, we are NOT doing this behind their backs or privately. They are fully aware and involved in this project with us. You just have to understand, since the contract states: "1 source to the Facility, Can Rent up to 15 Basic converter boxes, Provider does NOT support or maintenance Clients distribution system", they will not do anything past the Head-End. They actually installed the 1st Amplifier before "Their" splitter bank, and the 11 Converter boxes in the Head-End! There is some headway they give to school campuses as they are all for "Cable in the Classroom".

I mention this as we will submit our plan to them before we do it. I just don't want anyone to hold back an answer because they think we are doing something illegal.

Thanks again for all your replies...

[KHerron]

@usually_Quiet,

We have looked at this approach, and is why would would like to keep the 11 converter boxes, as it would handle all the "Copy-Freely, Copy-Once and Copy Never" protections. If we can tune the Converter box to that particular channel, all we are dealing with is the Video and Audio from the outputs, Non-of that would apply. Also if the channel lineup or any of the protections change, it does not effect our system. We simply change to the new channel on the converter box. Also this suggestion would not help us with the 2 Foreign Language channels from the DTV dish, or the production classroom.

Please keep in mind that we are not recording or saving anything here. We basically want it to be just like using the current system, just IP instead. We feel like a multicast will be the best way to save on bandwidth, and when a user tunes or signs in to that particular stream, they pick up right where the live stream is at, not from the beginning like a stored video.

Thanks again.

[JVRaines]

Please keep in mind that we are not recording or saving anything here. We basically want it to be just like using the current system, just IP instead. We feel like a multicast will be the best way to save on bandwidth, and when a user tunes or signs in to that particular stream, they pick up right where the live stream is at, not from the beginning like a stored video.

I'm curious: why does your ambition end at mimicking the analog distribution system? Here you have a really fast data network and you could build an on-demand media service instead. Outside of a few things like live news updates, people want to watch programs, not channels. It seems like a lot of money to spend just to get HD cable.

[usually_quiet]

@usually_Quiet,

We have looked at this approach, and is why would would like to keep the 11 converter boxes, as it would handle all the "Copy-Freely, Copy-Once and Copy Never" protections. If we can tune the Converter box to that particular channel, all we are dealing with is the Video and Audio from the outputs, Non-of that would apply. Also if the channel lineup or any of the protections change, it does not effect our system. We simply change to the new channel on the converter box. Also this suggestion would not help us with the 2 Foreign Language channels from the DTV dish, or the production classroom.

Please keep in mind that we are not recording or saving anything here. We basically want it to be just like using the current system, just IP instead. We feel like a multicast will be the best way to save on bandwidth, and when a user tunes or signs in to that particular stream, they pick up right where the live stream is at, not from the beginning like a stored video.

Thanks again.

I was confused by your use of "DTV". It was not clear that you meant DirecTV until just now when you mentioned a dish. The abbreviation "DTV" usually refers to digital over-the-air TV. External ATSC tuners (sometimes called ATSC receivers or DTV converter boxes) also exist. In some parts of the USA, foreign language channels are available over-the-air due to a large immigrant community.

Cable boxes and satellite receivers usually apply copy protection to their video connections, HDCP on HDMI and CGMSA on the analog side.

HDMI to SDI/HD SDI converters (for the Drake Digital PEG-NE24-IP-C) from respected companies like Blackmagic Design won't accept an HDCP protected HDMI signal. I suspect that the Antrica encoders won't accept an HDCP protected HDMI signal either. Some HDMI splitters remove HDMI as a side effect, but the future availability of such products is not guaranteed. Also, any device made specifically for the purpose of removing HDCP is problematic to sell in the USA (retailers selling them are subject to legal action under the DMCA) and will need to be ordered from overseas.

Analog copy protection is easier to deal with since component video + analog stereo to SDI/HD SDI converters appear to ignore CGMSA, so you can use those for the Drake Digital PEG-NE24-IP-C). The Antrica devices may ignore CGMSA as well. Analog connections may disappear from cable boxes in time, but for now you are able to use that solution.

[pandy]

Most important question is - do really want to recode content - once again - all you need is to receive analogue signal (QAM on CATV) and after demodulation expose it structure to IP network - i believe this can be made trough non re-encoding approach.
Cheapest solution is USB receiver - some of them support up to 6 TS and counting that in US this mean up to 50Mbps (approx) it sounds quite reasonable - proper PC with software IP server may be all you need but i can understand that you are more interested in more professional approach ( and more expensive) - perhaps something like this: http://www.dveo.com/broadcast-systems/QAM-to-IP-Gateways.html
I think there plenty similar solutions.

[KHerron]

As far as Video -on-Demand, I agree that in today's technology, most people watch shows, not channels. However, this is a private (Middle to High) school. They do not watch Day time Drama, Prime time Sitcoms, or really even movies. It is mainly used as News, Local & National Information, PBS, Weather, Production and Foreign Language.

Basically, they want to create a Home Page website that shows the available streams, then when a teacher selects it, it re-routes her browser to the Multicast scream from the encoder. That's about as fancy as they want it. This is a school with very "Old School" ways.

[KHerron]

I found this, and it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for.
http://www.pviusa.com/VeCOAX-PRO4-HDX-RF-Modulator_p_43.html

This is a 4-Channel HD-IP encoder, for about $3500 USD.
This comes out to $$875 per channel and is fitting in to the budget.

Does anyone out there have any experience with this device?

[pandy]

I found this, and it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for.
http://www.pviusa.com/VeCOAX-PRO4-HDX-RF-Modulator_p_43.html

This is a 4-Channel HD-IP encoder, for about $3500 USD.
This comes out to $$875 per channel and is fitting in to the budget.

Does anyone out there have any experience with this device?

If you have digitally encoded video then you don't need re-encoder but re-multiplexer / trans-multiplexer to distribute it further - i believe it should be cheaper than encoder...

Something like this:
http://www.pviusa.com/Broadcast-RF-to-RF-Transmodulator_p_62.html
Will have better quality (no loss due decode/encode) also you can feed full TS i.e more than 1 video services (they say 8+ services CI module - with 4 slots it gives 32+ video services).