50fps footage for DVD

[kieranvyas]

I have a lot of footage that is mainly 50fps, but some is 50i and 25p also. I am using Premiere Pro CC. What is the best way to handle this footage which is intended for DVD. I do not want to loose the smooth motion as my scenes have a lot of movement.

[LMotlow]

You left out some important information, especially the frame size of your videos. How is it encoded? Are these videos HD?

PAL DVD is 25fps MPEG2 only and is usually interlaced, which gives smoother motion than 25p. HD video uses the Rec709 color matrix, standard definition uses Rec601. AD often buss AAC audio, which has to be re-encoded to another audio format for DVD. https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech

Sorry, I don't use Premiere Pro as it's not the best tool for projects like the one you described. PPro users can offer suggestions.

[jagabo]

Convert everything to 720x576i25. You could leave the 25p stuff 25p but it's a little more difficult to mix 25i and 25p.

[kieranvyas]

You left out some important information, especially the frame size of your videos. How is it encoded? Are these videos HD?

It's all HD 1080p. Should I be converting my footage before editing?

I've already edited the project but when I encode to mpeg2 I am getting horizontal lines occasionally during motion. So I am going back and looking at my source footage. I had a friend look at a lossless export I did and he said this: (the export was 1080p lagarith codec 50fps, ready to be encoded to pal 25i mpeg2)

Had a look at your export And noticed it has an odd field pattern of mostly progressive 50 frames per second but sections of duplicated frames. Something like:

2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:4:2:4:2:4:2:2:2

So I split it into fields and ran it through a script that detects duplicate frames. It shows frame numbers on the left followed by a number with 5 decimal digits, a value of around 2 indicates it is the same frame as the one before it. However this is not exact.

[LMotlow]

Convert everything to 720x576i25. You could leave the 25p stuff 25p but it's a little more difficult to mix 25i and 25p.

That's the straightforward answer, even if it's more of a chore than it sounds, but that's what has to be done. Yep, the 25i/25p mix can't be physically joined into one solid video, but you could encode them separately and "join" them as separate tracks during DVD authoring. Some people take 25p and lie to the encoder, telling it the video is interlaced. Usually looks pretty weird in playback, if it plays at all.

[jagabo]

when I encode to mpeg2 I am getting horizontal lines occasionally during motion.

You're supposed to get interlace comb artifacts when encoding as 25i. If you do the encoding correctly and author the DVD correctly the player and TV will handle it properly. Just like the do all commercial 25i content.

[kieranvyas]

when I encode to mpeg2 I am getting horizontal lines occasionally during motion.

You're supposed to get interlace comb artifacts when encoding as 25i. If you do the encoding correctly and author the DVD correctly the player and TV will handle it properly. Just like the do all commercial 25i content.

The lines definitely aren't supposed to be there. The interlacing is handled perfectly by the DVD player but every once in a while the horizontal lines show and it looks awful.

That's the straightforward answer, even if it's more of a chore than it sounds, but that's what has to be done. Yep, the 25i/25p mix can't be physically joined into one solid video, but you could encode them separately and "join" them as separate tracks during DVD authoring.

So it would be best to convert my 50p footage into 25i before editing? At the moment my 50p 50i and 25p footage is all mixed in amongst my timeline. What's the best thing to do?

[LMotlow]

If by "edit" you men trying to join segments of dissimilar video types, it won't work. I don't know which video you separated into fields. If it was the 50p, every 2 fields will be a duplicate.

If you think about it, none of those formats is suitable for BluRay/AVCHD, much less for DVD although you could away with it using the 25p as a separate clip.

The 50p video isn't a huge obstacle: resize it to 720x576, then interlace to get 25i. If you were using Avisynth for that, it would work this way:

AviSource(Lagarith 50p video)
Spline36Resize(720,576)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields()  # <- now twice the number of fields as frames. Every 2 fields are duplicates.
SelectEvery(4,0,3)  # <- for every 4 fields, take the first field ("top" field) and the last field ("bottom" field). 
Weave()          # <- weave alternate top/bottom fields to get interlaced video frames.

I don't know how PP would do it, but they don't use Spline resizers. You can't mix 25i and 25p in the same video, and definitely not all three types together.

I don't know what you can do with the 50i, but to get 25i out of it some fields have to go. One way to do this is to deinterlace the 50i into 100p full frames with something like QTGMC or yadif, delete alternate frames to get 50p, then interlace the 50p to get 25i, as shown above. You could probably do that using PP's deinterlacer, but PP isn't that good at it. By dropping frames you won't always get smooth motion, whether it's progressive or interlaced.

You can combine the 25i videos in your timeline, but not the 25p.

Almost all editors will show interlace combing. PC media players and external players and TV will deinterlace during play.

[kieranvyas]

If by "edit" you men trying to join segments of dissimilar video types, it won't work.

Ok please forgive my amateur noob ignorance! But I've completed the project using these mixed frame rates all in the same timeline, 50p footage cross fading into 25p footage for e.g. So can it be salvaged? If I convert all my source material to 25i (then it will automatically relink the clips in PP) will that work?

[LMotlow]

Don't take all this information as meaning you're a dummy. It just means you're new, not stupid. Everyone in this forum was a noob at some time. If you have a lot of garbage in what you see now, there's no real salvage for it that would be less complicated than re-doing it properly.


(a) If you import your lossless 25i videos and combine it with a lossless 25p, then tell Adobe to encode the whole thing as interlaced, it just might work. No one would guarantee that the 25p segments will play so well, but we've seen some odd stuff around here. Make some small clips for a trial, then try a short video and see what happens.

(b) We've seen some movie imports that were obviously progressive source encoded as interlaced. The way this is sometimes done is to make two 720x576 copies of the same progressive video, combine them by interleaving alternate frames (every 2 frames is a duplicate. Obviously there is more than one way to duplicate frames in a video). Then separate fields and interlace them as shown in the earlier code. And often they're just progressive video encoded as interlaced, which sometimes works OK and sometimes not so OK.

It's easier to try (a) first.

[kieranvyas]

(a) If you import your lossless 25i videos and combine it with a lossless 25p, then tell Adobe to encode the whole thing as interlaced, it just might work. No one would guarantee that the 25p segments will play so well, but we've seen some odd stuff around here. Make some small clips for a trial, then try a short video and see what happens.

Thank you very much I really appreciate that! I will try (a). Would it also work if I kept the 50p footage as it is, removed the 25p stuff and then converted the entire project to 25i afterwards? Rather than doing it before?

[jagabo]

25p is encoded as 25i quite often on PAL DVD so there's no problem there (unless you do it incorrectly). The most likely place for problems is in converting 1920x1080i25 to 720x576i25. Note that 25i is the same thing as 50i, just with a new name because marketing decided 50i sounds better than 25i. The best way to resize interlaced HD to interlaced SD is to use a good smart bob to convert 1920x1080i25 to 1920x1080p50, resize to 720x576p50, then select fields from that to make 720x576i25. Most software will simply separate the 1920x1080i frames into two 1920x540 fields, resize them to 720x288, then weave them into 720x576i frames. That leads to artifacts around any sharp horizontal edges.

You cannot put 50p on DVD. PAL DVD only supports 25p and 25i.

[LMotlow]

jagabo's advice about resizing the video is the right way to do it, or you'll have severe artifacts. And he knows his stuff.

Make everything else 25i and add the 25p, then edit and encode as interlaced. To emphasize what was said earlier: 50i and 50p cannot be used for DVD. Here is the link to the general specs for PAL DVD: https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech

And here is the data from that link:

Up to 9.8 Mbit/s* (9800 Kbit/s*) MPEG2 video
Up to 1.856 Mbit/s (1856 Kbit/s) MPEG1 video
720 x 576 pixels MPEG2 (Called Full-D1)
704 x 576 pixels MPEG2
352 x 576 pixels MPEG2 (Called Half-D1, same as the CVD Standard)
352 x 288 pixels MPEG2
352 x 288 pixels MPEG1 (Same as the VCD Standard)
25 fps*
16:9 Anamorphic (only supported by 720x576)

Audio:
48000 Hz
32 - 1536 Kbit/s
Up to 8 audio tracks containing Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM(uncompressed audio), MPEG-1 Layer2. One audio track must have MPEG-1, DD or PCM Audio.

Moreover, none of those videos are compatible for standard HD formats like BluRay/AVCHD. You could work with them as generic formats without authoring or proper disc playback as mp4, mkv, etc., but you still can't combine dissimilar frame rate videos. Here are the HD specs again: https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech. For standard BluRay/AVCHD for 50p 1920x1080 can be resized to 1280x720, which supports 50p. 1280x720 for HD disc does not support 50i or 25p.

[kieranvyas]

jagabo's advice about resizing the video is the right way to do it, or you'll have severe artifacts. And he knows his stuff.

Make everything else 25i and add the 25p, then edit and encode as interlaced. To emphasize what was said earlier: 50i and 50p cannot be used for DVD.

Because I've (unfortunately) already done the project, is it best if I just start again OR can I do the following:

Leave everything 1080p50 > remove the 25p stuff > export to 1080p50 lossless & THEN do all the resizing and interlacing you both described ??

[LMotlow]

But the 25p->50p will play at the wrong speed and audio pitch. Besides, everything isn't 50p. One of your videos is 50i. And as jagabo noted, you still have to deal with way PP would work that deinterlace/resize/interlace reprocessing.

I'm curious about that 50i, though. As noted, some camera makers like to quote "50i" (which would mean 100 fields per second) when it's really recorded at 25i but 50 fields per second. If you'd care to use the free MediaInfoXP , it works with all versions of Windows, and is standalone so it needs no installer. We might have more definite information. Open the 50i in that app, then use the top-menu "View" item and go to "Text view". Everything in that text window can be selected, copied to the clipboard, and pasted here as plain text.

[smrpix]

You don't need to over-complicate this. First Premiere should be able to import and edit with all your footage without your having to convert anything first. It will resize and adapt any frame rate differences as needed. Do work in a 50fps timeline IF you have actual 50p footage.

From Premiere you can directly output to DVD-spec mpeg. Make sure you set your output to interlaced (under the video tab of the output settings) if you want to maintain smooth motion on the 50fps material.

See if there is a commonality in the material where you are getting motion lines on playback. Most likely you can fix these particular scenes directly in your timeline by right right-clicking on the clip, choosing field options, and then experimenting with the parameters such as "reverse field order" until it works.

Does Premiere have the absolute best resizing? No. Does Premiere do a better job of deinterlacing than QTGMC? No. Does Premiere do a good enough job of these things? Many broadcasters believe so.

[LMotlow]

You don't need to over-complicate this. First Premiere should be able to import and edit with all your footage without your having to convert anything first. It will resize and adapt any frame rate differences as needed. Do work in a 50fps timeline IF you have actual 50p footage.

So you say treat everything as 50p with 50p, 50i, and 25p videos combined, then output as 25fps interlaced. And PP will adjust everything to 25i? What's the reverse fields business about?

[jagabo]

TVs sometimes do screw up with their deinterlacing. I see it now and then on out little Vizio. Usually with animated material.

What's the reverse fields business about?

The two fields of an interlaced frame are two different pictures. You are supposed to see those pictures one at a time, sequentially. The field order is the order in which those two fields are to be displayed. Different programs use different nomenclature: top/bottom (eg. top field first), upper/lower, even/odd, A/B are often used. Specifying the wrong field order usually results in very fast-jerky playback. But sometimes a TV will display comb artifacts as its deinterlacing gets confused.

[LMotlow]

Yep, some TV's are better at deinterlacing and telecine than others are. And sometimes the incoming signal ain't so great, either.

[manono]

I see it now and then on out little Vizio. Usually with animated material.

If it's because of what I think it is, that's fairly common with animated material. When it's a mix of soft and hard telecine, or a mix of soft telecine and true interlaced material, when the change comes it might take the player several frames to make the adjustment. And if you're sharp-eyed, as people doing this often are, you'll spot the brief interlacing before the player switches over to deinterlacing it, where a 'normal' person might not notice anything out of the ordinary.

[jagabo]

I see it now and then on out little Vizio. Usually with animated material.

If it's because of what I think it is, that's fairly common with animated material. When it's a mix of soft and hard telecine, or a mix of soft telecine and true interlaced material, when the change comes it might take the player several frames to make the adjustment. And if you're sharp-eyed, as people doing this often are, you'll spot the brief interlacing before the player switches over to deinterlacing it, where a 'normal' person might not notice anything out of the ordinary.

The TV is receiving SD analog video so it's all hard telecine.

[manono]

The TV is receiving SD analog video so it's all hard telecine.

Oh, so it's not what I thought at all. One would think it would deinterlace everything. Thanks.

[jagabo]

The TV is receiving SD analog video so it's all hard telecine.

Oh, so it's not what I thought at all. One would think it would deinterlace everything. Thanks.

It tries to smart deinterlace but it occasionally makes mistakes. You see TFM do this occasionally -- when only some tiny object is screen is moving, below its threshold.

The cable company broadcast widescreen video pillarboxed in an SD frame. The TV then letterboxes the SD picture on its wide screen. The result is a tiny picture with bit letterbox and pillarbox bars. I use the zoom feature to enlarge the small picture to full screen so the deinterlacing errors are pretty obvious when they happen.