Did I get my cart before the horse?

[DigitalFarns]

Howdy, I'm a newbie here, and I jumped into VHS conversion last night. Had problems. Found this forum. Wish I'd found this forum first.

I bought this capture card from Amazon and installed it last night: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SQE1O0/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My source is a magnavox VHS/DVD combo, a year old, never put a tape in it until last night. I'm using the red/white/yellow outputs into the capture card, until my HDMI cable arrives in a couple days. (I don't know if that makes any difference at all on VHS?)

My goal is to convert a storage bin full of tapes to digital for my wife for Christmas. I will be compiling them Adobe Premiere (also quite new at) and putting them to DVD.

I am curious to learn what you think of the card I got, and what steps I may need to take to have better success. The first tape I tried, the card saw no input signal from, though I'm sure there is video there. I suspect the VCR may not be able to play the image well so it's not playing it all? I've read things here to indicate newer VCRs don't play as nice as older ones?

The next tape I tried started out great, but then got real "skippy" for lack of a better word. The audio and video got real choppy. But I cannot tell, is this the tape? the VCR? or a result of the card or my computer not being good enough? How can I troubleshoot these issues to see what's going on? This particular tape was shot by her mother 13 years ago with a camcorder. The first video was more like 16 years old.

I am reading things about Timebase correction, but I don't really understand if that is meant to help with the problems I am having.

Can somebody help me get on the path to great VHS capturing? ( I realize 'great' is a relative term in VHS LOL)

Thanks

DigitalFarns

[DB83]

Maybe you are trying to run before you can walk

Certainly, you should test that 'blank' tape by playing it through your tv just to see if there really is anything on it. It is pretty rare for a tape with some video not to show anything.

Some more details about your PC would also help. The 'choppy' video could be a result of trying to capture on the system HDD. If you have only one HDD then you really should invest in a second one as the OS can interupt the capture process and result a shed-load of dropped frames.

Also, what are your capture settings ?. If you are capping at higher than SD then this is overkill for VHS and you will have to reduce it to put the recordings on to dvd.

You may care to upload a short sample of that 'choppy' vid so that we can take a look at it.

[DigitalFarns]

After spending my lunch break on this forum, I'm wondering if I am indeed jumping in too quickly. I will upload a sample of what I'm talking about tonight. I am capturing to a secondary internal storage hard drive, not my OS disc. My OS is on a SSD, but I'm capturing to a 7200 RPM storage drive. I've wondered if one might want an SSD for capturing to.

I'll have to check the capture settings. I don't have an answer for that right now. I only know I chose NTSC.

I also meant to say, that I'd watch an area that was choppy, then I would rewind the tape some, and play it again, and it would play fine. All while capturing. So that's what leads me to think it's the VCR, not the computer or the tape. But that's just a guess is all.

[DB83]

The 7200 rpm secondary storage is fine.

Better await the sample before further comments.

[jman98]

Are any of these commercial tapes? Or are they all homemade? Commercial tapes will block you from copying them unless you use a TBC. DVD/VCR combos are NOT recommended around here because they are infamous for issues with the VCR side.

[DigitalFarns]

Whoops, sorry I didn't mention that before. These are all home videos, nothing commercial. So is the TBC only for cracking copy protection efforts? Dang. I bought the combo last year for Christmas, intending on putting all our home movies on DVD. But since then I've been learning Adobe Premiere so I wanted to do things up a little nicer. So I guess I need to better understand what options I have by way of proper hardware.

[jman98]

TBCs are designed to provide picture stability in tapes that may need it. The "defeats copy protection" is technically just a side benefit.

DVD/VCR combo players are designed so that if the least little thing is wrong with a video tape, the DVD recorder freaks out and just assumes that a commercial tape is being copied and it refuses to copy it. I have no experience with just sending the VCR output to a capture device, but having issues using the DVD recorder to record old tapes is why we don't recommend them. If you have separate DVD recorder and VCR units, you can put a TBC between them if you need to. Can't do that in a combo.

[DigitalFarns]

That makes sense. In one video I tried, it would slip in and out between showing the video, and showing a "no signal" screen. Even if just for a half second at a time. I've read a few threads where people talked about different VCRs they'd used, but the one thread I read was from like 2010. What are good recommendations for a suitable standalone device? In the meantime, I'll see if I can borrow one from a friend and see how that goes.

[orsetto]

Before trying to cap any tape with your PC, be sure to play it direct from VCR to TV so you be sure the tape is OK and plays normally on whatever VCR you're using. The symptoms you describe of the capped video being alternately choppy or missing altogether is most likely due to the unbelievably crummy VCR built into those Magnavox combos: either that, or the tapes are in way worse condition than you expected.

So the first thing you want to do, before delving further into the sinkhole of PC capture, is double check playback of these tapes on both your Magnavox combo and someone elses' VCR (preferably a different brand). If the tapes play directly into the TV from your Magnavox with no issues, the VCR in the combo is usable (though not ideal). If you see problems with choppy or skippy playback, you definitely need to try another, better VCR. If the tapes play nicely in the second VCR, the one in your Magnavox is funky and can't be used. You'll need another VCR.

There are many approaches to choosing a VCR, but unless you plan to make this your life's work it doesn't pay to get lost in all the VCR-related threads here. The biggest hurdle encountered by "newbies" is that there are no new, good-quality, reasonably-priced VCRs available anymore. We are stuck with the second hand market, and used VCRs today fall into one of four groups: junk, nice ordinary VCRs that are reliable but not remarkable, fancy high-end SVHS VCRs that don't work or are on the verge of breakdown, and newer fancy DVHS VCRs that are excellent but way overpriced for the casual user. There's no real grey area or range to choose from in second-hand VCRs: you either get a nice, decent, typical VCR for $40 or less, or you get a superb, top-class DVHS or SVHS that will run you $300+ in mint condition. The pricier the VCR, the less dependable it tends to be, and getting VCRs repaired these days is not easy. The only difference between the $30 VCR and the $300 VCR is the more expensive model adds a "TBC/DNR" circuit (in many cases this is literal: two VCRs from the same brand can be identical aside from this feature). TBC/DNR cleans up noisy color and some snow/grain, making a nicer signal for your capture card. But the benefit is not consistent, and not everyone thinks its worth plunking down $300 or more for a feature that varies its usability from tape to tape.

Those new to capturing VHS should probably start with a more basic VCR, inexpensive but good quality, without the DNR feature. If you look at Craigs List ads or ask around to friends, you can pick up a nice basic Panasonic 4-head HiFi vcr for $25 or less, sometimes free. Or look on eBay for a recent "industrial" version such as the Panasonic AG2560, there are several listed right now in good condition below $40. Any of these should give you decent, average-quality playback that is somewhat better than what you'll get from your Magnavox combo VCR.

Note that PC capture cards tend to be incredibly fussy when fed VHS signals: they don't really like VHS. If you encounter major issues with choppiness, video glitches, or bad audio lip-synch, you'll need an external TBC (a different type of TBC from what you'd find in fancy VCRs). The most popular TBC for VHS capture is the AVT-8710, available new from dealers like B&H for $229. The TBC takes your VHS input from the VCR and sort of "pre-digitizes" it for the capture card, removing instabilities that would otherwise disturb the capture card. Some newer PC configurations with some capture devices can skate by without needing a TBC, but most of them benefit from connecting a TBC between VCR and capture card.

[rcubed]

That makes sense. In one video I tried, it would slip in and out between showing the video, and showing a "no signal" screen. Even if just for a half second at a time. I've read a few threads where people talked about different VCRs they'd used, but the one thread I read was from like 2010. What are good recommendations for a suitable standalone device? In the meantime, I'll see if I can borrow one from a friend and see how that goes.

Your problem could just be old tapes with the oxide deteriorating. Tapes need be to stored in a cool area away from stray electronic fields like electric motors or fans that might not be shielded.

Also your tape player may have a tracking adjustment. Sometimes there can be a difference between the alignment of the video heads between different players. This usually shows up by tearing of the image but can exhibit what you have been describing, but if available you might give it a try. You may have to consult the VCR user manual to figure out how to adjust tracking. If you do adjust it be sure to set it back to the original setting (tracking adj. is usually shown as a bar with a slider and showing +,- at each end). There should be a mark in the middle of the bar which indicates the tracking adjustment is at the default for the VCR. Hope this might help.

Rcubed

[DigitalFarns]

Good evening, just checking in quickly before I head out to a meeting. I'll have to post a video clip later tonight. But I checked into my AVerMedia software, and found capture settings. I was expecting more options, but basically I select the video source (HD, component, composite, or S-Video) and within those, I have options for NTSC, PAL, or SECAM, which I believe NTSC is what I'm after, right? I have NTSC_M, NTSC_M_J, or NTSC_433. None of those are very descriptive and the manual says nothing on the subject. Do those ring any bells? I was expecting to have specific resolution choices.

I will get my hands on another VCR to try, and I will post a sample of what I'm getting later tonight, thanks!!

[jagabo]

You want NTSC-M in North America.

[DigitalFarns]

Well well well... most interesting. I made several recordings where I was seeing the problem in the preview window, but the MP4 it created was just fine. So maybe it's none of the above....? the preview looks horrible, sounds horrible, but the only thing that remains in the captured video is the tracking issues or whatever it is at the top and bottom of the frame. None of the problems I was writing about are present in the recorded video. Silly me, I should have watched the captured video first. I guess I assumed that I was seeing a true preview of the tape? Here's a few seconds of my clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lp4235dPY&feature=youtu.be

Still needs work, obviously, but I guess I need to reset my bearings here on this.

[DB83]

A sample from yt is not the best since that will have been converted by yt itself. You could upload the original direct to the forum.

I am a little concerned that you are creating a mp4 direct at capture since that is likely to be quite heavilly compressed to give you little scope for restoration and editing will be all the more difficult. Again, the original capture, uploaded here, will tell us a whole lot more about the video. But do check to see what options you have since they have not been mentioned in your earlier reply.

On a quick view, there is some judder and that can certainly be fixed with a tbc.

[Brad]

Agreed... Recording to your computer in DVD-rate MPEG-2 or a small MP4 when you have a DVD recorder sort of defeats the purpose.

I'm also seeing tracking noise at the bottom of the video there, so if there is no manual tracking adjustment you should try another VCR.

Hate to say it, but you picked a bad card for VHS capture. I've owned one for a few years and I like it for HDMI capture, but the other inputs are lacking. It's so bad at locking onto nonstandard signals that it couldn't recognize the blue screen of my VCR, and it unnaturally sharpens composite/S-Video sources. If your Magnavox combo does output VHS over HDMI (most don't), give it a try but otherwise I would suggest returning the AVerMedia HD DVR card.

My current recommendation is one of the USB2.0 capture sticks/cables that uses the Conexant Polaris chip; they cost $25-50 or so. I'm in the process of putting together images for another thread like the one I linked, though, and there are a couple things I still need to look at since I will be including a VHS source this time and there are a lot of little variables in the way devices react.

[DB83]

More on the above.

You should also check your combi's manual caerfully just to see what outputs are supported for VHS. I also doubt if hdmi is supported so you probably watsted some $ on that cable. To illustrate that point I also have an old combi. That has a s-video output but for DVD only !! and I expect that to be like wise for your unit over hdmi. There would be no logic in sending an analog signal (VHS) over hdmi.

[2Bdecided]

Your problem could just be old tapes with the oxide deteriorating.

1997-2000 is not old for a VHS tape. It's so "recent" in VHS terms that some of us had stopped using VHS by then!

In half-decent storage these things last a long time. All the decent VCRs will be dead first.


Under a strong enough magnetic field tapes will be wiped instantly, but that's hardly the point.


Anyone still have tapes from the late 1970s / early 1980s that still play? My earliest are from 1985, and they still play as well as the day they were recorded.


Cheers,

David.

[jagabo]

"Great VHS capturing" starts with an S-VHS deck with a line TBC. That is the single most important factor in getting superior image qualitiy. You follow that with a full frame TBC and a video proc amp. If you can't get an S-VHS deck and full frame TBC you can use an old DVD recorder like the Panasonic ES10 or ES15 in pass-through mode to clean up the sync. DVD recorder pass-through is not as good an option but it will still be better than anything you can get from a VHS deck and any capture device.

[El Heggunte]

Necessary Off-Topic:

DigitalFarns, you'd better edit the title of the first post, because the Forum Rules say:

Try to choose a subject that describes your topic.

UPDATE:

Q.: Did I get my cart before the horse?

A.: Yes, you did. ( => translation: Great, yet another name on my Ignore List.)

[DigitalFarns]

Wow, lots of responses. I'm out the door to work, but will try to absorb this on my lunch break and respond. I did however, finally find where I can choose the quality I am recording at. The menu was not easy to find. I was recording at DVD quality, so my files are about 1GB per 15 minutes. That's way overkill for VHS I would guess.

I'll jump back in to this discussion in a few hours, thanks so much!

[jagabo]

my files are about 1GB per 15 minutes. That's way overkill for VHS I would guess.

No, much the opposite. All that noise and time base jitter in VHS eats up bitrate. ~8000 kbps is not nearly enough if you plan on serious filtering.

[DB83]

And, again, just to be sure that is what you are recording at, rather than just an option, please upload that original sample here. The 'mp4' comment does not fit that description.

[orsetto]

"Great VHS capturing" starts with an S-VHS deck with a line TBC. That is the single most important factor in getting superior image qualitiy.

This is one of our annoyingly-inconsistent "Ten Commandments of VHS Capture" that is absolutely true much of the time, until you hit a streak of one tape after another for which it absolutely isn't. These fancy VCRs are far from "catch-all, works every time, always makes an improvement" devices. I've been slowly transferring a very large collection of tapes dating back 30 years, from all kinds of sources and all kinds of quality from Hollywood studio tapes to third-generation concert videos. I have well over a dozen VCRs I rotate in and out as necessary, including the hyped-to-death JVC SVHS, Panasonic AG1980, and a Mitsubishi DVHS. And I can't tell you how many tapes look like total bloody crap when played thru these legendary TBC/DNR circuits. When I'm lucky, one of the three TBC/DNR designs will work, when I'm not, using an "ordinary" VCR is the only option. The line TBC/DNR vcrs will either work wonders, or cause disasters: jitter, flicker, hailstorms of noise, tearing, you name it (yes, they can cause the very problems they were designed to cure).

This is why I can't recommend newcomers to VHS transfer run out and buy an expensive old VCR right off the bat: results are a crapshoot depending on the tape, and the risk now with all the beat-up, half-dead, unrepairable JVCs and Panasonics flooding eBay is much worse than it was when this discussion began back in 2002. Given the expense of a good high-end VCR, external TBC, and decent capture device, I don't think it cost effective for non-geeks to even bother anymore if they're dealing with less than a few dozen tapes. Anything Hollywood like movies and TV shows, you should just replace with the commercial DVDs or BluRays. Priceless personal family tapes should be handed off to a professional transfer service that specifies they employ high-end VCRs, high-end capture devices, and hardware/software video correction. For the $500-700 cost of a decent DIY system, you can buy a goodly amount of pro services. Only lunatics like myself, with thousands of tapes, will realize any economic advantage from DIY (and believe me, I'm seriously considering mortgaging my house to have a pro come by with a truck and just transfer them all for me- it is TEDIOUS work).

Anyone still have tapes from the late 1970s / early 1980s that still play? My earliest are from 1985, and they still play as well as the day they were recorded.

I have quite a few dating back to 1980.

Almost all the ancient VHS play just fine, but the old Beta stuff is in really poor condition. Don't know whether its because the old L500s were not as durable as T120s, or because the few still-functional Beta VCRs I lay hands on are just not as good at concealing issues as more commonplace VHS decks.

[jagabo]

Given the expense of a good high-end VCR, external TBC, and decent capture device, I don't think it cost effective for non-geeks to even bother anymore if they're dealing with less than a few dozen tapes. Anything Hollywood like movies and TV shows, you should just replace with the commercial DVDs or BluRays. Priceless personal family tapes should be handed off to a professional transfer service that specifies they employ high-end VCRs, high-end capture devices, and hardware/software video correction.

Agreed.

[DigitalFarns]

ok, lunch break

So I went with youtube because I couldn't figure out how to upload a video to the forum. If somebody can point me in the right direction, I will do that tonight.

I don't know what format (MP4, AVI, etc.) that was captured in, since I didn't find the resolution settings until this morning. If you tell me the best possible option to do this with, I'll be happy to recapture that way to be sure.

I will check to see if the HDMI output works under the VCR option. I only spent a few bucks on a simple cable, so no huge loss if I can't use it. I just wanted the best possible output from the VCR. I see coax and component, neither of which I"m terribly familiar with.

The tapes have been stored largely in my cool basement, inside a rubbermaid type storage bin. They spent a few summer months in a storage unit, but other than, pretty climate controlled.

I'm willing to spend some money within reason to be able to do this right. Once I'm done with my tapes, I'm sure I'll be doing my sisters, my in-laws, etc. etc. so I'd really like to be able to do it as right as I can (given all the variables outlined by orsetto...). If that means an S-VHS deck and a TBC, as long as I can afford it, I'd love some specific model recommendations (I've seen a couple already).

I understand each tape may have different challenges, and I can't have a perfect all in one solution. I think I"d like to find a nice middle of the road setup.

And lastly, so sorry to have offended you El Heggunte. I suspect you were at one point new at this too.

[DB83]

When you reply, select the 'Go Advanced' = full reply rather than the 'Quick Reply- option.

You will see a paper-clip icon (attachment) so click on that. Follow the on-screen guide but do not leave the page untill the attachment finishes uploading (it will take a little time). To exit that page you then click the 'Close This Window' button and add any reply text you want to before posting the reply.

[jagabo]

So I went with youtube because I couldn't figure out how to upload a video to the forum. If somebody can point me in the right direction, I will do that tonight.

Below most of the edit boxes here there's a button that reads "Upload Files/Manage Attachments". Click on it while editing a post. Press the Browse button, select a file, then the Upload button button to upload it. Wait until the dialog shows the upload is complete (unfortunately there's no progress bar). Press the "Close This Window" button. The file will appear as an attachment when you complete your post.

Look at the Quick Reply edit box after the last post below. See the "Upload Files/Manage Attachments" button below it?

[DigitalFarns]

ok. So from SD sources, I have the following format options, in this order... would you say it's the order of best to worst or any thing like that?

MPEG 2, AVI, DVD, WAV, WMA, WMV, H.264, iPod, iPhone, iPad, AppleTV

Then within each of those, I have various audio & video options. Size, video quality, audio sample rate, audio quality...

It looks like under MPEG2, I can select 720x480/720x576 (only option), I can dial the video quailty up to 15,000, Audiorate maxes out at 48000, and audio quality ranges from 192 to 384.

what options would you suggest I use to do a capture to post?

[Brad]

I would suggest forgetting that AVer MediaCenter even exists and instead install VirtualDub. Apart from being ugly and confusing, the AVer software doesn't have any indicator of whether it dropped a ton of frames somewhere. Be sure to disable audio resync in VirtualDub (and/or check the box that says to disable resync when a device with integrated audio is detected).

The best quality is to capture using lossless compression. For that you will need somewhere in the vicinity of 30GB per hour of footage. Typically you only use this as your intermediate format for capture and editing, then compress down to a reasonable size or a specific format like DVD.

I like using the Ut Video codec for this purpose. Once you have the suite installed, the one to use for SD video capture is the BT.601 422 form. Configure it to optimize for Compression and tell it your footage is interlaced.

And if all of that doesn't sound like your idea of fun, seriously consider orsetto's suggestion or perhaps see if recording directly on the Magnavox in the highest quality mode provides results that look satisfactory to you.

[techiejustin]

How about buying a used Digital8 or MiniDV camera, input the composite video into it and firewire it to the PC?
Thats what I did and I ended up with results on par with any "professional," With old Video8 tape from 1984, and a VHS tape from 1979.