Yet another VHS/Hi8 to digital "do I have what I need"

[msdiane]

About to recommence analog tape to digital conversion after long delay. Desired output is mpg2. First step is equipment & software, so looking for comments on what I already have.

Scope:
40-50 VHS "home" tapes recorded by RCA video camera with direct cable to VHS recorder. (predates cameras with built in VHS-C) Several VHS recorders were used. Vintage=1970s & 1980s.
1 commercial VHS tape with Macrovision (Polynesian Culture Center); that version (with the performers we actually saw) not available for purchase on DVD.
Approx 100 "home" Hi8 tapes recorded with Sony CCD-V101 (dead) and Sony DCR-TRV480 (alive).

Video equipment:
VCR: Sony SLV-N60 (HiFi)
VCR: JVC HR-A592U (HiFi)
VCR: Goldstar GHV-1280U (untried but supposed to ignore Macrovision)
camera: Sony DCR-TRV480 (pass-through supposed to be available)
dvd recorder: Polaroid DRM2001G (listed in case useful as a pass-through)
TBC/DNR: none

Capture/Tuner equipment:
Hauppaguge HD-PVR (output h.264 TS but that's ok)
ATI AIW (32) AGP capture cards
ATI TV Wonder 650 PCI capture cards
KWorld UB435-Q USB tuner (cheapie)

Computers:
Asus A7V mb (Socket A, t-bird Athlon 1.3 GB) Still have Win2K with MMC (8.1?) that I used for capturing TV during the 2000s.
HP (Asus) K8S-LA Salmon (Socket 754, Athlon 64 single core) XP
HP (Asus) A8AE-LE AmberineM (Socket 939, Athlon 64 x2) XP
Asus F2A85-V Pro (FM2, Trinity 5800K quad, has PCI slots) Win7 (XP available)

Software:
ATI MMC for AIW (Win2k, XP?)
ArcSoft package that came with the AIW2006 that replaced MMC. (AIW2006 died and was replaced by ATI with TV Wonder capture card)
ArcSoft TotalMedia that came with Hauppauge HD-PVR. (Currently using for TV captures)
NPVR
MediaCenter (Win7) - undesirable

History:
IIRC, tried i.Link (Firewire/IEEE 1394) computer-to-Hi8 camera connection a few years ago, but couldn't get it to work - software problems as I recall. Have done a number of the Hi8 tapes using HD-PVR and ArcSoft TotalMedia (edit: composite connection). Raw recording (h.264 TS) seems ok, but having problem of recording stopping in middle and having to restart. Sometimes takes several tries, but usually makes it through. Think there's 1 tape with a problem so far.

Tested VCR to HD-PVR using composite for VHS tapes, but constant loss of sync kills this. VHS tapes play ok, just not recordable using HD-PVR. Tried using Sony camera as a pass-through to HD-PVR several years ago unsucessfully. These VCR tapes are my biggest worry. I used to use ATI MMC with my AIW to record TV, but may have forgotten too much... Worried there may not be anyone to help if I get stuck. It was a real PIA to set up, but once going, it was fine. Belated thanks to LordSmurf and his web tutorial pages. Not much experience with the TV Wonder capture card or it's ArcSoft version of MMC.

Equipment/Software suggestions? Do I need something else, particularly for the VHS tapes?

[Brad]

Approx 100 "home" Hi8 tapes recorded with Sony CCD-V101 (dead) and Sony DCR-TRV480 (alive).

In your equipment list you include TRV460. Both of these are Digital8 cameras (DV format on Hi8 tapes). Did you really record in analog Hi8 mode on one of those?

VCR: Goldstar GHV-1280U (untried but supposed to ignore Macrovision)

According to whom? I think I recall hearing about VCRs that weren't susceptible to Macrovision, but that was in regards to their recording systems responding to the intended light-dark alternation. The recordings would still contain the Macrovision signal itself, and playback from any MV'd tapes would trigger protection in the receiving device. To allow a device downstream to record a protected signal, the VCR would have to deliberately replace the hidden top of the video signal.

Have done a number of the Hi8 tapes using HD-PVR and ArcSoft TotalMedia (component connection). Raw recording (h.264 TS) seems ok, but having problem of recording stopping in middle and having to restart. Sometimes takes several tries, but usually makes it through. Think there's 1 tape with a problem so far.

I think you mean composite connection (you should be using S-Video with Hi8), and it sounds like the camcorder's TBC is failing to provide a stable signal for the HD PVR?

Tried using Sony camera as a pass-through to HD-PVR several years ago unsucessfully.

It lets you run analog in and analog out at the same time?

Equipment/Softare suggestions? Do I need something else, particularly for the VHS tapes?

If you're going to all the trouble of computer capture, take it one small step further and separate your capture step from your encode step. Capture in lossless with VirtualDub and do a 2-pass VBR encode for final output. Actually, it's no additional steps compared to your HD PVR method but you would just use one of your other capture devices instead.

You can try adding in an early-model Panasonic DVD recorder as your passthrough for not much money, especially if you find one selling on Craigslist or one with a broken drive on eBay.

[msdiane]

Cameras
AFIK, the Sony CCD-V101 (dead) was analog. Used Hi8 tapes in the Sony DCR-TRV480; digital?. Whatever the recorded format is there, still need to get it off the tape. Vast majority of recordings were done with the CCD-V101. Actually purchased the DCR-TRV480 (new) so we could play/transfer the older Hi8 tapes. Just didn't get to it until now.

Goldstar VCR
Was given to me. Was told it was too old to recognize Macrovision. Not holding my breath there. That's why I said "supposedly". I only have the 1 Macrovision tape. I wish I could just buy a DVD to replace it.

Hi8 - HD-PVR recordings
Yes, those were done with composite, not component cables. Seems to me there was a problem or missing sVideo connector/cable or something like that. Will have to check into it.

Camera

lets you run analog in and analog out at the same time?

That's how I interprete the manual, but it's been quite a while since it was tested. Seems to me the camera "tried", but the sync problems (from the VCR?) were too much for it.

VirtualDub
I know it is an option, but I'd rather aim for direct-to-mpg2 or h.264 TS.

I suspect my problem may be not having something to "condition" the signal, but I'm real weak on knowing options. Any list somewhere to identify "early-model" Panasonics?

[Brad]

AFIK, the Sony CCD-V101 (dead) was analog.

Right; when I said "both" I meant TRV460 and TRV480.

Hi8 - HD-PVR recordings
Yes, those were done with composite, not component cables. Seems to me there was a problem or missing sVideo connector/cable or something like that.

The TRV480 doesn't have S-Video output while the TRV460 does, so I guess that answers the confusion over which model you have.

VirtualDub
I know it is an option, but I'd rather aim for direct-to-mpg2 or h.264 TS.

You said your desired output is MPEG-2. Is that not the case for your HD PVR captures; you are keeping the H.264 files as-is?

Here is a list of Panasonic DVD recorders that use a certain video processor they developed. In theory all of the models below should react the same way to analog signals, but that's tough to say without actually comparing every single one (they do vary in terms of MPEG-2 encoding hardware). [EDIT: There are posts indicating that while the DMR-ES20 does perform some line TBC functionality, it isn't as effective as the DMR-ES10 and doesn't cure tearing.]

I've bolded the three that I know from trusted posters correct VHS signal problems. They also happen to be the most widely available/cheapest; far moreso than the HDD models.

C1AB00001979:
DMR-E65 (3 in)
DMR-E75 (VCR, 2 in)
DMR-E85 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-E95 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-E500 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-EH50 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-EH55 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-EH60 (HDD, 3 in)
DMR-ES10 (3 in)
DMR-ES15 (2 in)
DMR-ES20 (2 in)
DMR-ES25 (2 in)
DMR-EZ17 (2 in)
DMR-EZ27 (2 in)
DMR-T6070 (HDD, 3 in)

[msdiane]

My typo: no TRV460, just the TRV480.

h.264 TS is ok as an output. I can use VideoReDo to cut/trim. That's about all the editing I'm wanting to do. Of course, hubby is going nuts over the sound bars on top (or was it the bottom?) and wants to mask those off. We'll see...

[Brad]

Kay. Are you able to record SD sources at 13.5Mbps, or only HD? Leave the garbage at the bottom and leave it up to your player/TV to do a slight zoom in, depending on how you are planning to view them.

For the Hi8 tapes I would still try to get Firewire working.

Side note: you're the most technically-proficient female I can remember posting here, though I don't know whether that will come across as a compliment or me being sexist.

[msdiane]

Leaving the noise is my choice too, but don't know if I can convince the other half.

As to your compliment/sexist remark, I'm a geek from way back & had much more to deal with in the "early" days - like I was usually the only gal in my EE (that's Elect Eng, not Elem Ed) classes and the guys wouldn't talk to me until they found out I was already married. Or early in my career socially saying I worked in Assembly giving the impression that I put stuff together on a line rather than saying I was a programmer and either getting looks of disbelief or questions like "Did you go to school for that?" Technically I was not lying - I wrote Assembly language programs. Your comment made me remember those & smile.

[techiejustin]

OP, you have everything you need for converting the analog 8mm tapes to digital.

There's no reason your fire shouldn't be working, after 10+ years in IT have seen a bad Firewire port exactly once.

I have a TRV-460 I used for exactly that purport.
Converting those 8mm tapes is easy - just pop them in the TRV480 and connect your computer via Firewire, and use your favorite capture software, Windows Movie Maker, or if you're smart iMovie.

You can set the output format to raw DV, and from there use a utility called Handbrake to convert that DV video to mpeg2.

For the VHS tapes, just the TRV to line-in, keep it connected via firmware, ad do the same thing while playing your VHS tape, while outputting the composite video to the camera.
IN other words
VHC VCR ----> TRV480 ------firewire cable-----> computer

[msdiane]

After a memory refresh (mine, not hardware), the firewire problem wasn't technical, but conceptual.

Hi8 If I use the TRV480 with firewire, the analog/digital conversion is done by the camera with AVI output; if the analog tape is only played by the camera and the HD-PVR does the analog/digital conversion, it gives h.264 TS output. Visually the TS output looked as good or better than the AVI without having to spend conversion time. Whodda thunk? Both had sound bars on the bottom. If hubby can't live with those, then the method may change if AVI+mpg2 conversion with masking looks better than a recode from TS masking.

VHS The sample we tried plays fine when viewed on the TV, but there were a lot of sync problems when connected directly to HD-PVR or through camera to HD-PVR. Have not tried camera/firewire yet. Been doing a lot of reading, and cause may well be VCR - good, but not a prosumer unit with TBC, etc. Right now I'm doing a lot of web research into the Poloroid 2001G - something I already have. Actually bought it several years ago from ebay for a completely different purpose. Has desireable LSI video chip that many claim improve VHS images. Anyhow, plan to try to a couple of scenerios: VCR/Polaroid/HD-PVR and VCR/Polaroid/dvd/computer. Would be nice if I could skip the dvd step and read the drive directly in computer, but it's unlikely I'm going to find software to read the Polaroid's (Philips?) file structure.

From forums reports, looks like there's a 50/50 chance I may be able to get my 1 commercial tape with Macrovision converted with the Polaroid. I actually did email the Polynesian Cultural Center to see if that tape, Portrait of Polynesia 1987, was ever available on DVD. Sadly no, so I'm on my own here.

If the Polaroid setup doesn't work satisfactorily, then I'm going to try my old Win2k+AIW setup. If that doesn't work, then I have to decide whether to try the TV Wonder or to try the AIW on a better computer next. If those still don't give me good results, I could buy another VCR or send the tapes to someplace like LordSmurf's business. If the cost ends up to be about the same, the pro conversion probably would give me better results - I'm just paranoid about the tapes being lost in shipment.

[Brad]

The H.264 conversion via composite looking better than the 25Mbps I-frame internal conversion is surprising. I wonder if you simply prefer a smoother video look? Nothing wrong with that, of course, they're your videos. Any chance we could see a short sample video captured both ways?

[msdiane]

You might be right about the smooth look. Our HD projector (hubby's pet) died & while looking at a potential replacement, I noticed that I prefer the crisp LEDs while he likes the softer projector output. He has a 130+" screen, so projector is the only route for him. He did half of the Hi8s earlier this year then got stuck on what may be a problem tape rather than equipment problems as originally thought. When we start it up again (after getting a new projector), I'll try to get samples. What would be a good target, postable size?

Since he's done so much work and decision-making on the Hi8s, I'm focusing on the VHS tapes right now. I'm sure we'll have a battle over capture bit rates if I go the TV Wonder or AIW route, but that's nothing new. Actually that's why he started on the Hi8s - to determine a capture rate that he liked when viewed on the projector. He's been the prime photographer/videographer of the familiy & I have handled the TV/movie captures - so he hadn't had much exposure to actually testing rate vs. file size vs. subjective picture quality.

[Brad]

20 seconds of DV (Firewire output) would be a little over 60MB; the forum allows up to 500MB but there's no need for a sample that long.