MP4 bad, MPG OK?

[strudo76]

Hi
Just joined to ask a question regarding some video encoding I'm currently doing. I've been using x264 to encode music videos from TV, previously using the --preset veryslow setting. Recently I decided to change to either medium or slow, however playback of those files seems a bit choppy and jerky. I've researched different settings (bitrates, --tune fastdecode option, hardware decoding) but it never seemed to get any better. While playing with the hardware decoding options of the LAV codec, I noticed that the active decoder was always displaying inactive, so I tried some different things to to make it actually change that status. One of the things I tried was changing the file extension, which is where I'm looking for some input.

Here's the media info from one of the files I've encoded, using --preset medium --crf 25 --tff and a crop filter.

General
Complete name                            : Q:\Music Videos\NewClips\VideoClips\MusicVideos\Aaliyah - Try Again.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom
File size                                : 35.7 MiB
Duration                                 : 3mn 39s
Overall bit rate                         : 1 366 Kbps
Writing application                      : Lavf54.37.100

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames                : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 3mn 39s
Bit rate                                 : 1 175 Kbps
Width                                    : 512 pixels
Height                                   : 560 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : MBAFF
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.164
Stream size                              : 30.7 MiB (86%)
Writing library                          : x264 core 128 r2216 198a7ea
Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=tff / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=0 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=25.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile                           : LC
Codec ID                                 : 40
Duration                                 : 3mn 39s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 187 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 4.87 MiB (14%)

Menu

This video plays mostly ok, but the motion isn't smooth. It seems to stutter a bit in panning shots and doesn't look fluid. Audio plays without any problem and CPU usage during playback is very low.

However, if I do nothing more than change the file extension from .mp4 to .mpg, the video plays fine. Picture and audio quality are exactly the same as far as I can tell, but the motion is smooth and fluid. I'm not sure I understand why just changing that would make a difference. I suspect that the different extension is triggering a different codec for playback (currently I'm using Shark007 V3.9.3), but I would have thought that the decoder would be selected based on the internal reference on the video stream, rather than the file extension.

I use x264 to produce the video file, and NeroAACEnc for the audio, then FFMpeg to mux them into an MP4 file (using -vcodec copy -acodec copy). Changing this to MPG (or Mpeg) produces files that don't play, as I found that the mpeg container can't contain avc video. Using WMP for playback, and I'm not interested in using an alternative player as that wouldn't suit my needs

Is my best option to make the files as I've been doing and rename them?
Could I use a better container format for the final files (mkv)?
Is this a case where the PC is struggling to decode the files?
Are there other encoder options I can use to make playback better (using --tune fastdecode implements --no-cabac --no-deblocking --no-weightb --weightp 0)
Are there better decoders available that will do a better job?
Any other thoughts?

Simon

[Baldrick]

You can try disable the WMP built in decoder for mp4 / h264 first. Use preferred filter tweaker.

And this must be a software player issue. How does the mp4 work in VLC (it has built in decoders)? Just to compare with WMP.

[Hoser Rob]

I totally agree with baldrick ... well, he's pretty reliable ... another player would definitely "suit your needs". I'd install both vlc and smplayer. I use the latter for my default video player. If I can't play a file with either of those there's probably something wrong with it.

While I'm not anti Microsoft per se like a lot of linux users, their media software is awful. The only times I've used wmp in years is by accident, in a new install where I forgot to change the file association.

Also, my policy with Nero for years is that nothing with that name is going anywhere near my hard drive.

[hech54]

Why do people make things so difficult? What's wrong with something simple like WinFF and it's presets?

[_Al_]

Also, my policy with Nero for years is that nothing with that name is going anywhere near my hard drive.

You can use NeroAACEnc , no problem with that.

[jman98]

Also, my policy with Nero for years is that nothing with that name is going anywhere near my hard drive.

You can use NeroAACEnc , no problem with that.

Yes. There are some other things Nero is fine for too.
1) Burning data discs.
2) Burning audio CDs.
3) Making hybrid discs like VCD/Audio CD hybrids or VCD/data CD hybrids.

[strudo76]

You can try disable the WMP built in decoder for mp4 / h264 first. Use preferred filter tweaker.

And this must be a software player issue. How does the mp4 work in VLC (it has built in decoders)? Just to compare with WMP.

Thanks I'll give the tweak tool a go, and failing that will install VLC to see how it performs there

I totally agree with baldrick ... well, he's pretty reliable ... another player would definitely "suit your needs".

I have two problems. Firstly, I do a bit of personal software programming and use the media controls provided in Microsoft Visual Studio, so I do need them to play with the standard Microsoft controls. Secondly, the reality is I'm not actually a very good programmer (more of a hack job ), so even if another player can be implemented into my project, I'm not sure I'd have the skills to get it working.

Also, my policy with Nero for years is that nothing with that name is going anywhere near my hard drive.

In that case, what do you recommend for audio? A different AAC encoder or something different completely?

[strudo76]

Why do people make things so difficult? What's wrong with something simple like (quoted picture removed) and it's presets?

[Attachment 15416 - Click to enlarge]

I use FFMpeg in a batch file as I generally convert upwards of 10 files at a time (often more). When I was using the original veryslow setting, each music video would take around 30 mins to process on my old hardware, so I needed it to run unattended overnight.

I might also try specifying the output of ffmpeg using -f mp4 and using mpg in the file name. That might work too.

[deadrats]

am i the only one that finds it odd that media info reports the resolution as 512x560 with a DAR of 4:3?

[strudo76]

am i the only one that finds it odd that media info reports the resolution as 512x560 with a DAR of 4:3?

This is the media info for the source file, which is a recording from a digital broadcast and the individual clip extracted using VideoRedo Plus using default settings (I think, haven't looked at settings for VideoRedo for a long time so I'm not sure if I changed any)

General
Complete name                            : Q:\Music Videos\NewClips\VideoClips\MPEG Store\Aaliyah - Try Again.mpg
Format                                   : MPEG-PS
File size                                : 134 MiB
Duration                                 : 3mn 39s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 5 131 Kbps

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Duration                                 : 3mn 39s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 4 773 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 10 000 Kbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.460
Stream size                              : 125 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID                                       : 192 (0xC0)
Format                                   : MPEG Audio
Format version                           : Version 1
Format profile                           : Layer 2
Duration                                 : 3mn 38s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 256 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 6.68 MiB (5%)

I use the crop filter of x264 to crop out any black letterbox regions, or remove yukky bits from the older 80's videos, which accounts for the change in frame size. I don't specify anything regarding DAR though. Should I be doing something about that? All the clips I've done display at the correct aspect ration when viewed on the monitor or on an extended display to a flat panel.

[poisondeathray]

as I found that the mpeg container can't contain avc video.

mpeg2-program stream? Yes it can contain AVC video

whether or not WMP has the splitters and filters to play it is another story...

This video plays mostly ok, but the motion isn't smooth. It seems to stutter a bit in panning shots and doesn't look fluid. Audio plays without any problem and CPU usage during playback is very low.

However, if I do nothing more than change the file extension from .mp4 to .mpg, the video plays fine. Picture and audio quality are exactly the same as far as I can tell, but the motion is smooth and fluid. I'm not sure I understand why just changing that would make a difference. I suspect that the different extension is triggering a different codec for playback (currently I'm using Shark007 V3.9.3), but I would have thought that the decoder would be selected based on the internal reference on the video stream, rather than the file extension.

I'm guessing renaming the extension to .mpg in your case enables automatic deinterlacing in WMP

[strudo76]

as I found that the mpeg container can't contain avc video.

mpeg2-program stream? Yes it can contain AVC video

I was going by the wiki container comparison page that says no for mpeg video files, but does say it can be contained in a PS. I don't really understand the difference between and mpeg video file, a program stream or a transport stream, so I guess that's where I got it wrong.

I'm guessing renaming the extension to .mpg in your case enables automatic deinterlacing in WMP

I've done some playing with the tweak tool. At first I didn't see any improvement when changing the preferred codec for H.264 or MP4V, regardless of which setting I tried. Under MS Codec Tweaks, it said that Media Foundation was disabled (32 & 64 bits), however selecting the option to disable Media Foundation for .mp4 in the Media Foundation options fixed the problem (and also displayed the LAV system tray icons while playing, something that was not happening before for the mp4 files)

As some further research, I uninstalled the Shark007 codec pack completely. Now the mp4 file still plays the same as it was before (badly), and the mpg file doesn't play at all. (edit: this is when mp4 files are still set to use the WMF)

So I guess that the mp4 uses the Media Foundation unless explicitly told not to, and mpg files do not use the Media Foundation at all. By changing the extension to mpg it was using the LAV codec when available.