initial 30% of burned dvd (avi files) not readable

[surfgeorge]

Not sure if this is the proper forum... since i don't really know if this is hardware or software related.

New computer (hp, amd a10-5700, windows 7, 10 gb ram, 1 tb hdd, hp cddvdw sh-216aln sata) .

i burn avi files to verbatim dvd+r (the label says "azo", and i've never had a problem with these... including burning successfully with the same spindle of disks that now have this error). normally 5 or 6 avis per dvd. new computer worked fine for a couple of weeks. now the first 30-40% of the disk is unreadable by my dvd player, while the final 2-3 avis on the disk work fine.

i've changed titles of the files so that they burn in a different order and the avi files that worked fine on one disk when they were at the end of the list/dvd, will not play when moved to the front of the list/dvd and burned (and vice versa: unreadable at begining work fine when place in the latter half). so i know it's not the avi files themselves, it's their order on the disk, the first ones not playing.

looking at the disk itself, you can see that there is a different "lighter" appearance in that initial area of the disk... the disks that were working properly have a uniform appearance throughout the entire disk after they are burned, as do the faulty disks in the latter half/outer half (the part where the files work).

i've opened four different spindles of the verbatim disks, and they all replicate the problem.

when i ask nero and/or ashampoo to verify the data after burning... they both report unverifiable, and usually hang at around 28-32% of the way through the verification process.

i've used the windows trouble shooter, checked for updates to drivers (says it is current), and did successfully burn a philips dvd-r (only had one left over from years ago). the menu viewed on my tv when using my dvd player shows all files being present, but when you click to start one of the first 2-3 files on the disk, there is a long pause (i assume trying to load each successive non-playable title) until it finally opens one of the avi files in the latter half of the disk.

Help!

[smrpix]

The lack of spacing makes your post unreadable too.

[usually_quiet]

Which Verbatim DVD+R media did you buy? Only the Verbatim DVD product lines that use AZO dyes are first-rate write-once media. The Verbatim "Life" product line, which does not use AZO dyes, is unreliable.

[surfgeorge]

smrpix: i hope that's more readable now.

usually_quiet: the paper label on top of the spindle has "AZO" (where the "O" is an image of a disk) in the lower left hand corner.

like i said, i did not have any problem with these disks (from the same spindle) writing correctly on the same burner. and the one dvd-r disk that i had, burned a fully functional disk (all titles playable).

thanks for any assistance.

[usually_quiet]

new computer worked fine for a couple of weeks. now the first 30-40% of the disk is unreadable by my dvd player, while the final 2-3 avis on the disk work fine.

when i ask nero and/or ashampoo to verify the data after burning... they both report unverifiable, and usually hang at around 28-32% of the way through the verification process.

So you are saying that using the same media and the same software, your new computer initially burned DVDs that still play correctly? ...but the DVDs it has been burning more recently are all faulty in the same way, and two different drives are unable to read the entire disc? If so, that makes me suspect the burner is the problem.

I take it that the new PC has a warranty, and you haven't done anything to void it?

[surfgeorge]

So you are saying that using the same media and the same software, your new computer initially burned DVDs that still play correctly?

Yes. Used Nero with the Verbatim azos... as i have for a number of years. After this problem arose i also burned with ashampoo, and now i just tried imgburn. all three softwares burn the entire disk without problem, but produce a disk that will not read/verify at around the 29% mark. The disk physically looks "different" at that point: there is a band of "lighter" color. the avi files from about midway on will play, but not those in the first part of the disk.

...but the DVDs it has been burning more recently are all faulty in the same way, and two different drives are unable to read the entire disc? If so, that makes me suspect the burner is the problem.

I take it that the new PC has a warranty, and you haven't done anything to void it?

yes, they are faulty in exactly the same way (first 40% not readable). Yes, it has a warranty and i haven't done anything to void it (although i admit to not having read all the pages of small print ).

But, i just found some new packages of really old sony DVD+R and used one with nero. works perfectly, and no visual sign of abnormality on the physical disk... it is all the same color or reflectivity, with no band of another lighter color. PLUS i did earlier burn with the one DVD-R disk i found, and it worked perfectly as well. Those other disk types/manufacturers working would point to the verbatim disks, no?

but i find it really odd that right in the middle of a 100 spindle the verbatims would suddenly all be "bad". and four other packages as well? But if another brand of +R and another brand of -R both write fully readable disks... i really don't get it! could a burner setting have somehow gotten changed that would make the verbatim +Rs not work, but allow the sony +Rs (and the philips -R) to work?

i'd like to be as sure as possible as to the problem, and its resolution, before i either 1. ask for a new burner, or 2. ask for a replacement for 400 verbatim dvd+r disks...

thanks again for your help!

[usually_quiet]

Here is information from club MyCE explains how DVD writers know what to to when burning a DVD.

In order to burn a disc, the drive need to know things about the disc so that it could use the right power levels, calibration, etc. The collection of various parameters that determine how a drive handles a disc is called the "write strategy." All DVD discs have write strategy information physically embedded in them. But this is not enough, and for all the drives out there, their firmware contains a list of various media codes and additional write strategy information for each media code.

I still suspect that something is wrong with the firmware, or there is a problem with the drive itself.The Verbatim discs did work with that burner at one time. It doesn't seem likely that all the remaining Verbatim discs you have are physically defective, or are inexplicably providing the wrong information to the burner. It seems more like the drive in your new PC no longer knows how to burn the Verbatim DVDs correctly or can no longer handle the write strategy required.

If you have another burner, you could try the Verbatim discs with it to see what happens.

The banding can be a normal feature. Here is a link that explains it.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/dvd-tests.htm

[surfgeorge]

@usually_quiet:

i was thinking the same things... at least about the improbability of the verbatim disks going bad mid-spindle. i got out my old laptop and using nero and the verbatim +Rs burned two disks that are read completely by my computer and by my dvd player. i'm pretty sure the verbatim disks are good.

thanks for the article. apparently i need to find out how to re-install working firmware. i might try hp first and see if they can help.

thanks again for the diagnostic help. if i figure it out, and fix it, i'll post back... maybe someone else could have the same problem sometime.

mahalo.

[jman98]

Just FYI mostly to others who may read this thread at some point...

The vast majority of what Verbatim makes is AZO. Unless you specifically buy the Life series, you are getting AZO discs. Now I personally prefer the DataLifePlus discs because these are only made in Taiwan by MCC and I know what I am getting, but the truth is that actually it's a little tough to buy non-AZO discs from Verbatim. We've had some people post in various threads in a panic acting like almost nothing Verbatim sells uses AZO any more and in fact it is completely the opposite. EVERYTHING they make uses AZO except the Life series.

I would really recommend just getting a new burner. They're not all that expensive any more and I think that would be a lot safer and cheaper in the long run than reinstalling firmware only to find out you're still making bad burns. If reinstalling the firmware doesn't fix the issue you're still going to have to replace the burner and you'll be out more bad burns. I've never heard of firmware getting borked except when an attempt to upgrade or change it gets botched. It's definitely not normal for it to go bad without a deliberate attempt to touch it.

[usually_quiet]

...but the truth is that actually it's a little tough to buy non-AZO discs from Verbatim. We've had some people post in various threads in a panic acting like almost nothing Verbatim sells uses AZO any more and in fact it is completely the opposite.

It is true that most Verbatim write-once products use AZO, but it is harder to find them than it once was. Most brick-and mortar stores in the USA that sell Verbatim DVD media now stock the "Life" series discs exclusively, which means that for a lot of people in the USA, the only way to get Verbatim AZO media is to buy online. The only Verbatim AZO media I have seen locally in a couple of years is DVD+R DL.

[jman98]

You are correct, unusually_quiet. My point, not well stated, is that we have people here who act like even if you buy online it's almost impossible to get AZO Verbatim discs and that is simply not true. However, we also have a lot of people who simply will not buy online (I have no idea why) and those people now have few choices, that is true.

[surfgeorge]

hey jman, you wanna go with me to OfficeMax and explain why they need to replace the dvd writer after two weeks? i already took the first one back, so they're not gonna be happy to see me again asking for a third (because i don't think they do hardware change-outs at the store)...

[usually_quiet]

You are correct, unusually_quiet. My point, not well stated, is that we have people here who act like even if you buy online it's almost impossible to get AZO Verbatim discs and that is simply not true. However, we also have a lot of people who simply will not buy online (I have no idea why) and those people now have few choices, that is true.

I used to be one of the people who only bought DVD media at a store. The reason was that I didn't use enough discs during a year to justify buying in bulk online to get a better price or to qualify for free shipping. Going to the local Best Buy, Office Depot or Office Max and buying a pack of 50 two or three times a year when they were on sale made much more sense to me when I could still do that.

[surfgeorge]

Update: I spent a couple more hours online with HP support. After the first hour I tried doing all the fixes they suggested, all of which I had already tried. After reporting back, the second hour I spent telling the second guy the same stuff all over again. He tried to convince me it was the Verbatim DVD+Rs (azo). Since they wrote and read fine in two other computers, and with all the other testing I did, I told him I thought his logic was flawed. He then said, "Give me your shipping address and we'll send you a new writer".

I decided to call Office Max and they agreed to puta new one in the next day, so I took it down there, they swapped it out, and I burned a disk right there that verified.

I spent a lot of hours researching, testing, and mostly getting frustrated, not to mention burning about 20 coasters, but it finally got worked out.

And I'm not crazy. That burner didn't work properly.

Thanks to those here who responded to my questions.

[lordsmurf]

EVERYTHING they make uses AZO except the Life series..

That's actually not 100% accurate, either. Let me add some more to the story...

(1) "Azo" (azoic metallic organics) is mostly a reference to the dye materials. This is a patented dye formulation created by, owned by, and used by Mitsubishi Chemicals. It was first created for CD-R, and then altered for use in DVD-R (and later DVD+R).

(2) "AZO" is a mark used on select Verbatim products, as is DataLife and DateLifePlus. Most people confuse these. Nobody cares about "AZO" as much as they do the azoic dyes. It's these dyes that cause higher reflectivity. The "AZO" mark doesn't necessarily mean the discs are using azo dyes, but that's been the case do date 100% of the time that I'm aware of.

(3) Mitsubishi licensed these dye patents out to several companies, including CMC, which means CMC media uses an AZO dye. That's been the case since CMCMGAAE1 (4x?) DVD-R, some years ago. To my knowledge, CMC never stopped using it. This started way back (2004-2005?) when Mitsubishi worked with MBI, Prodisc and CMC, just prior to MCC outsourcing some production/operations to those physical facilities. Prodisc was using MCC dyes for its own discs for a long time. MBI used it briefly. FTI is now using it, too, from what I read when FTI opened shop.

(4) CMC's quality problem was unrelated to the dyes -- their slipshod budget-minded methods simply resulted in a ton of garbage discs, because (it's speculated that) production lines were allowed to run long after the machines should have been refreshed. That where "batches" comes in -- real batches, not the stupid 1-spindle BS people have invented in their heads. It's why some CMC discs test as fine (early in the batch?), while others are coasters (late in the batch?). In other words: not reliable media.

Therefore if Verbatim Life Series is CMC, and CMC uses azoic-organic dyes, it could be said that they're "azo" in the way most people mean (azo dyes), as opposed to the "AZO" Verbatim mark.

For anybody interested in further reading on this topic, and similar ones, I've explained more in-depth on some of these concepts in the past, at the digitalFAQ.com blank media forums.


Getting back to topic, and @OP...

The tech at HP was clearly a low-knowledge pigheaded dumbass.

Good for you on refusing to accept his answer.

I do, however, wonder what may have happened by burning a disc at 4x. Nowhere in this thread do I see burn speed being mentioned. Those 16x discs should be burned at 12x for the best performance -- not 16x, 24x, or whatever other asinine speeds burners try to promise these days. After 8x, speed no longer halves by each "x" power, but merely chops off a few minutes until 12x, and then it's just shaving seconds from there -- all while degrading the quality of the burn exponentially with each "x" increase. If the speed is not shown, assume "MAX", which is surely higher than 16x now, and very much NOT suggested.

[surfgeorge]

hey lordsmurf,

thanks for the info re "azo". given your knowledge of such matters, what disks do you use? Do you get them from any particular place?

re burn speed: i failed to mention that i have always burned at 8x... well, ever since the 16x came out. i had considered trying some burns at 4x, but 1. i had already made about 20 coasters trying other "fixes", and 2. even if it did burn (and then read) correctly at 4x i wouldn't have wanted to live with that limitation, though i suppose it's possible that info could have proved useful in determining if some other possibly correctable factor was responsible for the read errors.

they finally relented and gave me the new burner and it worked perfectly right away (same burn speed, same disks, same burning software, same files being burned). i'll let them figure out why the original one didn't work, though i suspect it's already in the trash.

i sent an email to the office max manager this morning expressing my appreciation for the person who dealt with me through both HP problems with a calm and friendly demeanor even though i was prone to increased decibel vocalizations and arm waving.

mahalo.

[lordsmurf]

These:
- Verbatim DVD-R @ Amazon.com
- Verbatim DVD+R @ Amazon.com

I'll get about 10 spindles minimum per order. Order more as needed.
Or inkjet versions, if needed. Branded media is fine for most usage needs, however.

20 coasters is about 10 past where I'd have set the burner on the back fence and pulled out a shotgun.

[surfgeorge]

thanks lordsmurf. i had thought that you were possibly a taiyo yuden fan.

occasionally in the past when office max carried the better quality verbatim disks they'd have the 100 spindles on sale for $16.99, and i'd stock up.

that was one major reason i was upset by the burner only working with other brands (sony dvd+r) and other formats (philips dvd-r)... i have over a thousand blank verbatim dvd+rs... so when the HP techs were telling me "you'll just have to use a different brand or format of disk because those verbatims are bad and/or incompatible...", i was, shall we say, not happy.

the guy at office max was way more willing to take care of the problem by just putting in a new burner. i was surprised that in order to do the swap he didn't just get a new burner from a retail box, he actually brought a whole computer out, new in the box, opened it, removed the burner to put into mine, took my burner and put it in the new computer, and put it all back in the box (maybe they'll sell it like that and hope the person doesn't burn with verbatim dvd+r disks?). since that was the second computer that now was nonfunctional (i had to return the first one because it had unresolvable problems) i don't think they, or HP, made a very great profit off the sale to me.

[lordsmurf]

TY DVD+R is one of my favorites, but costs more than MCC DVD+R, which has near-identical quality.
MCC DVD-R has better reflectivity than TY DVD-R.
MCC success rate is better, too, by a narrow margin. Less coasters.

The days of Verbatim for $17 at the local store are over. You'll pay at least $22 online now, sometimes up to $30.

"Philips" DVD-R is CMC. Yuck.
"Sony" DVD+R is all RitekF now, which is quite good. (Fuji oxonol dye Ritek discs.)

The way the swap happened at Office Max was because of return policies. They'll send the whole system back as defective. Some stores are hard to work with, and would insist your return your entire new computer, and exchange it in whole. (That always pisses me off, and I get into a heated debate -- which I always win -- with whatever assclown is the manager on duty. That's true whether it's a computer or a lawnmower.)

[surfgeorge]

lordsmurf,

thanks for your views on the TY disks. I had bought some, once, many years ago, but decided that the general opinion that verbatims were "nearly as good" was good enough, especially given the price difference at the time.

glad i stocked up at the $17 sale price on the verbatims.

re the philips and sony disks. those were disks i had left over from many (literally) years ago. someone gave me the philips disk and i had just never used it, and i had two 25 pack spindles of sony "made in japan" that i had bought for a reason that escapes me. anyway, they sure came in handy for troubleshooting the bad burner... i'm almost an hour away from any store that sells disks.

thanks for answering my questions.

[lordsmurf]

Sony "made in Japan" = Taiyo Yuden, or Sony ID manufactured by Taiyen Yuden.
Those would be 8x discs.

I also stocked up on the $17 Verbatim sales of yore, but go through media much quicker that most.