DVD Menu re-authoring: replacing subpic

[Ennio]

Hello everybody,

I am trying to re-author a dvd-menu.

Importing the original menu-only VOB in DVDSubEdit, replacing a subpic with an edited bitmap sometimes doesn't work. There would be no place. Reading the helpfile I understand that this program tries to fit in the bitmap trying cropping and moving around data. It can't insert packs in VOB's, if I'm right.

Now, I'm totally new to this menu subpic thing.. DVDSubEdit can save the original subpic to .bmp or .sup file. I can edit the bitmap but I need a sup-file again to remux. Also the original sup contains a lot of data, not only the pixels, my guess. DVDSubEdit shows stream ID's, ratio, timecodes, commands and more. I think that when replacing a sup, some of those data will have to be adjusted, removed or kept.

Now, is it possible to convert a bitmap into a sup file with all proper meta-data so I can remux again to my wanted menu? There is also audio, btw.


Thanks in advance

Ennio

[manono]

This probably won't help, but you can remux using SST files and BMPs. Muxman (and Scenarist) accepts them as input. If you can get an SST of the menu, you can replace the original BMP with your edited one and then reauthor using Muxman.

You can even create your own SST text to go along with the BMPs. Once you see one you should be able to figure it out.

Much easier, though, would be to figure out why DVDSubEdit can't do the job. You might ask at the IFO/VOB Editors forum at Doom9, in the DVDSubEdit sticky at the top of the page. You're sure to get a reply from the author jeanl. He sometimes shows up here, too. Are you making your BMPs 4-bit (as you should)? They're the same size as the extracted ones?

[Ennio]

Hi manono, thanks for your reply.


I came across this thread https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/305516-How-to-insert-one-or-more-subpictures-in-SUP-subtitle from some time ago.

You posted there: <quote manono> Convert SUP to IDX/SUB (SubtitleCreator). Convert IDX/SUB to SST (SubResynch, included in the VobSub package)...</quote>

I did this too with the original menu and so far so good. Now that thread was about adding a missing BMP, not replacing one. That time, as things got confusing I didn't go further with that one. Now I think I should carefully try to read & understand.


As for the bitmaps:

One question from me up front is: Is a "4 bit" BMP the same as a "16 color" BMP?

The BMP (source being NTSC, resolution 720 x 480) extracted by DVDSubEdit is 1013KB size. Is this a "4 bit" BMP size? See, initially I tried editing and even creating new bitmaps for replace, output them as 24 bit BMP. All sizes were the same: 1013KB. On itself this makes sense; I think it is an uncompressed 1 layer image. So directly I wonder if the extracted original by DVDSubEdit is 4 bit?
Anyways, I have Photoshop Essentials and I managed to get a 16 color BMP out of it (again, if that is equal to a 4 bit BMP). Not sure what I could do with the colors, I made sure I used the colors that were in the CLUT. The ouput was significantly smaller in size: 169KB.

Even this I couldn't import in DVDSubEdit, getting the message "Oops, too big...".

Now, after reading the DVDSubEdit helpfile & trying to interpret things, can you please correct me if I'm wrong with the following assumptions? I understand the colors-to-use of menu subpics are defined by a color scheme, which itself derives the colors from the 16 color CLUT. I understand also that this CLUT is stored in the IFO file. So it seems to me the SUP file itself contains info about the "where and how many pixels", and not color information. Hence it's small size? And my guess is the pixel-data from the edited BMP (I added too much pixels, so to say) is too big for DVDSubEditor to try & fit in. Outputting the SUP as a BMP is just a way to show graphics, filling in used and unused pixels with colors.

Trying to do this properly it seems to me that creating a whole new SUP from my wanted bitmap and remuxing that with my menu-background and audio would be the way to go.

I don't know where the properties and commands of the subpic are stored though. Wouldn't know where to start & understand editing them, if need be. Are they in the SUP itself or in the IFO? Questions, questions...

I will go back to the earlier mentioned thread and try to pick up & understand things from it. Also will pay a visit to the Doom9 forums.


For now,

Thanks

Ennio

[manono]

I don't understand much of it myself. jeanl is the one to talk to. But yes, 169KB is the right size for NTSC subpics. Those are 4-bit (16 color). And as I mentioned before, SST files are easier to work with and they're accepted by Muxman. That's right - a SUP file doesn't contain the 'final' colors. That comes from the CLUT in the IFO.

When I was doing this a while ago I gave up on creating a SUP file, but achieved success using SST. Maybe you'll have better luck with SUP files than I did.

Interestiing - I just experimented with extracting a menu subpic in DVDSubEdit (and it was 169KB) using 'save current subpic as bitmap', and it worked OK. Then I stuck the same one back in (without editing it, because I've never had a project needing any edited BMPs), and it worked OK. There must be something different about yours after the editing is finished. How about the color? Is it exactly the same as the others? Only certain colors are allowed.

[Ennio]

Well I was sure to use the colors in the original CLUT file. I'm almost positive I added too much pixels though. Reading the lines in DVDSubEdit's "Current subpic info" window, one can make out the area a subpic uses. So...

I had this lightbulb moment. In SubtitleCreator I managed to create a dummy SUP file with a lot of lines, using the needed colors. It had to be pretty large; it nearly filled the whole screen. With MuxMan I remuxed it with audio and the menu-background.

Opening the VOB with DVDSubEdit I now could replace the subpic with even my edited 24 bit bitmap. Hurray.

Only thing is that the subpic is now shown on the foreground. Not in the background. I think something went wrong in MuxMan or SubtitleCreator. Any idea what that could be?

Cheers


Edit: aaaaahhhhh I screwed up in SubtitleCreator. I had all transparency set to 15. Set to 0 --> things are better