Archiving old Video 8 videos as MP4 question

[ShaneJensen]

I have a huge question here. Short version first, than the longer version below of what exactly I mean on all points. Should I render my MP4 files from my Video 8 (8mm) tapes as interlaced (upper field first), or as deinterlaced (progressive)? The progressive version doesn't look as good as the upper field first one.

Here are the details of what exactly I mean and what I'm doing and looking to do. I have a load of Video 8 (8mm) video tapes recorded from the Sharp Viewcam VL-E37U video camera purchased in 1995. I have about 70 or so tapes that span the years of 1995 to 2000. Then I have Video 8 (8mm) tapes from a Sony Handycam (don't know the model number) spanning from 2000 to 2003. The editing software I'm using to both capture and render is Sony Vegas Pro 11.0. I just recently started the process of video conversion and rendering these to DVD. Thing is, a lot of the videos I'm rendering are close to two hours meaning I have to compress and render the videos down to 4,000 to 5,000 kbps to make them fit on the disc. That's fine for viewing for now, but I know in time DVDs will be obsolete. So in addition to rendering these for DVD, I'm looking to also render these videos to a very high quality file using the Sony AVC MP4 codec. I'm using the highest compression settings for both video and audio to get the most out of this. I'm looking to save each of these videos on several external hard drives. With three terabyte hard drives out now, I'm sure I can save all 70 of these tapes rendered to the MP4 specs mentioned above easy. I'm doing this with the long term future in mind what with streaming media capabilities becoming more and more popular. I believe that is the future. I have a new LG television and home theater system. Both of which can stream media from my computer or an external hard drive or USB flashdrive. Looks great.

The device I use to capture these Video 8 tapes into my computer is the Sony GV-D200. It connects directly to the computer with Firewire. So I know I'm getting the best capture I can from analog to digital and that is what I want so that I can permanently archive these old videos.

So here's my big question.... How should I render these videos to MP4? I tried two tests with two clips on a USB flashdrive to see how they look on my television. Both MP4 files were rendered 640x480, the kbps were the highest available, somewhere above the 20,000 range. The audio in the 512 kbps range. The profile set to high, entropy coding CAVLC, and render quality set to best. Here what I did differently in the two clips and where my biggest question lies. In one clip I rendered as progressive and the other with upper field first. The clip with upper field first looked crystal clear, smooth, and perfect over the television. The motion was VERY smooth as it should be expected. The clip that was rendered progressive looked horrible. It looked slightly blurred in comparison to the upper field first and the motion was slightly jittery. Should I be rendering these MP4 files as upper field first? Once again, I'm looking to render these very high quality MP4 files with long term future storage archival in mind. I want to preserve the highest quality possible using a format such as MP4. I believe having these files databased in a storage space that can be streamed by home media entertainment is the future because I know we're not always going to be using DVDs and I don't want to have to eventually copy my home video DVDs from these converted tapes over to a stored file because like I said the DVDs are compressed down in most cases to fit on the disc. Having these videos stored as files on large hard drives is the way I want to go about it. I will store them on two or more hard drives for backup purposes. Hard drives are cheap enough now that I can have several each that are mirrored. That's not an issue.

So for long term video storage, should I have these rendered the same as the source as much as possible and keep them interlaced as upper field first since that is what the source appears to be? I'm really not looking to complicate these things as much as possible. There are from old tapes, so I don't see the need to go any crazier than I already am doing. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[NJRoadfan]

The best solution in theory would be to keep the raw DV files of each tape. Remember DV is bottom field first interlaced. No, you should not deinterlace unless your final source is something like YouTube. Any display device (LCD TV, etc.) you use will de-interlace for you. De-interlacing video is destructive in that some information is lost, so leave the archives as-is.

Personally I have been just keeping my raw 720x480 HuffYUV source files since hard drives are pretty cheap, and who knows what improvements in compression and filtering will be made in the future. I have considered AVC lossless, but the file sizes aren't that much smaller and it takes forever to compress. DV, is ok, but be aware of the 4:1:1 colorspace issues NTSC DV has (search the forum). Analog 4:2:2 capture avoids the problems.

[ShaneJensen]

Hey thanks for the reply. The only problem I have with the DV AVI is that it takes up a lot more space, but it does make more sense. The other issue is that it won't play on my TV or home theater system. It just says unrecognized format. I'm assuming most streaming media players will not play DV AVIs?

How does Sony Vegas capture? Do they capture using the 4.1.1 you mention? I really don't know anything about 4.1.1 vs. 4.2.2.

[poisondeathray]

For archive, I agree, keep them interlaced

the clip with upper field first looked crystal clear, smooth, and perfect over the television. The motion was VERY smooth as it should be expected. The clip that was rendered progressive looked horrible. It looked slightly blurred in comparison to the upper field first and the motion was slightly jittery. Should I be rendering these MP4 files as upper field first? Once again, I'm looking to render these very high quality MP4 files with long term future storage archival in mind. I want to preserve the highest quality possible using a format such as MP4.

The reason the progressive clip looked choppy, was that you threw out 1/2 the frames . You could have double rate deinterlace to 59.94p instead of 29.97p . The reason they were blurry is you probably had vegas on "blend" deinterlace instead of "interpolate", which does a 50/50 blurry mix of fields.

When encoding interlaced, it's the same field characteristics as the source, 60i (60 fields per second) . Non-CRT TV's deinterlace it to 60p when displaying that 60i signal. In order to preserve the motion smoothness when encoding progressive you need to do the same: 60p (or 59.94p) instead of 30p. But vegas has a very average deinterlacer, even on interpolate it leave behind aliasing and jaggies. Avisynth offers better deinterlacers (the slow , motion compensated ones are better than consumer hardware deinterlacers) but it has a bit of a learning curve

The other issue is that it won't play on my TV or home theater system. It just says unrecognized format. I'm assuming most streaming media players will not play DV AVIs?

None support DV-AVI that I know of

Some people opt to keep a high quality lossless quality for archive, and a bob-deinterlaced copy for playback suitable for streaming (h.264/aac/mp4)

Hard drives are cheap enough now that I can have several each that are mirrored. That's not an issue.

They were a LOT cheaper a few months ago , unfortunately prices are supposed to be "high" for at least a few more months

[edDV]

DV for archive
30 fps h.264 MP4 for youtube.

[ShaneJensen]

I'm trying to render Sony AVC MP4 using lower field first and it won't let me. It just errors out. Any ideas?

[edDV]

I'm trying to render Sony AVC MP4 using lower field first and it won't let me. It just errors out. Any ideas?

In Sony Vegas, use the Sony AVC codec and custom settings for 720x480i, 29.97 (aka 60i), lower field first*.

For noisy camcorder video, best to encode at high >6000 Kbps average rates to prevent blocking. Experiment. If you must fit 2 hours, use a dual layer disc or live with the blocking**.

FYI, although the x264 codec is capable of recording interlace, that mode is not supported by most GUIs.


* This assumes you captured to DV format. The Sony GV-D200 captures only to DV format. As said above you should keep the DV-AVI file as your high quality archive.

** Or use a noise reduction filter.

[edDV]

How does Sony Vegas capture? Do they capture using the 4.1.1 you mention? I really don't know anything about 4.1.1 vs. 4.2.2.

The Sony GV-D200 recorder/player functions just like a Digital8 (DV format) camcorder less the camera section. It accepts analog video in and internally A/D encodes to DV format, then outputs a DV stream over IEEE-1394 (aka Firewire or iLink). At the computer end capture with Vegas capture utility or WinDV.

DV format captures to 4:1:1 sampling (quarter sampled chroma) which is fine for analog NTSC source.

Pro digital cameras sample 4:2:2 (half sampled chroma).

Most consumer digital video (DVD/HDV/AVCHD/Blu-Ray) use 4:2:0 sampling (chroma half sampled H and V).

Vegas in DV project mode will losslessly cut edit DV video. It converts to RGB during transitions or when filters are used. You can render back to DV format with no loss except the processed portions. That is why your DV format master is the best archive.