DVD to MKV - Is 720p Overkill?

[THRobinson]

Working on a media server and figured to save space I'll rip my DVD's as MKV vs having 4-7GB ISO files since I'll never use the menus or special features anyway.

Tried a few programs, settled on DVDFab 8 because seemed the easiest.

Converting my first video right now, older system so, with having a 2nd pass and at 720p the ETA is 15h... ouch.

My question though is, if I pick 720p (dimensions where the height is close to 720, though not exactly since depends on aspect ratio) is that overkill that's adding to the file size and time?

From my understanding, DVD's are more like 480p... should I be choosing something closer to that instead?

Thanks

...also, anyone know of something as easy as DVDFab that allows dual audio channels? I read DVDFab is working on it but, for now, would be nice to have both 5.1 and 2.0 audio.

[aedipuss]

dvd is 720w 480h in ntsc land. what you are making is 1280w 720h. it won't make it look any better and most likely worse and much slower to encode than staying at dvd size.

dvd encoded to mp4/mkv type video should be either 640x480 if the movie is 4:3, or 854x480 if the movie is 16/9. dvd spec mpg is non-square pixel and those numbers are for converting to square pixel.

[THRobinson]

Good... that 720p was taking forever and the time just kept going up.

Now to figure out the best HxW works for each movie... about 20 listed and always too big/small compared to 854x480.

[aedipuss]

try using vidcoder, it's fairly easy to set up and has automatic cropping available.

[jagabo]

I keep the resolution the same as the DVD (except for cropping away black borders when appropriate) and encode with SAR flags in x264 with the "veryfast" preset (plus a few mods) at CRF 18. On my quad core computer it takes 20 to 30 minutes to encode a typical movie. The resulting MKV file (with original AC3 audio) is usually somewhere between 1 and 2 GB.

[THRobinson]

I was hoping to match the resolution but not sure how to check what it is...

DVDFab shows either 4:3 or 16:9, DVD says 2.35:1 ratio... and when picking the prefs for the MKV it's HxW dimensions... is there a program that just shows the HxW of the VOB file?

[aedipuss]

ntsc dvd only comes in one flavor. 720x480. even 16/9, 2.35 and every oddball in between are encoded to 720x480. again i'd suggest vidcoder as the automatic cropping works well, and you can preview the output before starting the encode, and switch to manual cropping if something is off.

[jagabo]

As aedipuss pointed out, commercial DVDs only come in 720x480 with 4:3 or 16:9 display aspect ratios. Any movie that's not one of those two aspect ratios will be letterboxed, pillarboxed, or cropped to make it 4:3 or 16:9. SAR flags don't change when you crop. That makes it easy to know what SAR flags to use: 8:9 for all 4:3 DVD sources, 32:27 for all 16:9 DVD sources. Make sure your player supports SAR flags though. Not all do.

[THRobinson]

VidCoder is a no go for me... installed it twice and simply doesn't work. Scans the source fine, but the chapter selections are blank, and if I click onto the audio source or encoding prefs, it generates a crash report to submit and shuts down.

Resolution wise, I understand that 4:3 and 16:9 for the screen... but trying to figure out how to know what resolution to pick for the video itself.

http://www.dvdfab.com/dvd-ripper/how-to-convert-dvd-to-mkv-with-dvd-to-mkv-ripper.htm

It has a long list of resolutions and a crop option, but what I'd like to do is find what the dimensions are for the original and make it the same, and compatible with as many players as possible. I'm using XBMC on a media center but, might copy movies to USB when going to a friend's house and no idea what they may be running.

[jagabo]

It has a long list of resolutions and a crop option, but what I'd like to do is find what the dimensions are for the original and make it the same, and compatible with as many players as possible.

The easiest way to resize to square pixels is to resize the frame first, then crop away the borders. The 720x480 frame size always represents either a 4:3 picture or a 16:9 picture. So resize to a 4:3 or 16:9 frame size first, then crop away the black borders. What remains is the correct aspect ratio for the movie.

So, for example, resize 16:9 DVDs to 720x405 (720x9/16~=405) and 4:3 DVDs to 720x540 (720*3/4=540) or 640x480 (480*4/3=640). Then crop away the borders.

Be aware that some players require mod 16 or mod 8 frame sizes. And going less than mod 4 is asking for trouble. So sometimes you adjust the resize (slight distortion) or cropping (leave a little black border or crop a little into the picture) to accommodate that.

[THRobinson]

How long does it normally take to render an MKV for you guys?

DVDFab, I had the '2-pass' option enabled, was about 6h... looks really good, 1.4GB which was the ideal size.

I have VidCoder working, wiped out the user config file and tried again and seemed to have fixed it. The 2-pass option was greyed out, (doing an MKV right now) and showing an ETA of about 70min. Quite a lot less time than DVDFab. Maybe too fast?

Does the 2-pass make a big difference? I know when using DVDShrink to make the movies fit to DVD-R, you definitely wanted that 2-pass/Deep Analysis enabled... took longer but very visible difference in quality.

[aedipuss]

no need for 2 pass, use the cq function at 18-22. never have heard anything good about dvdfab encoding, it's fine for decrypting though. vidcoder(handbrake) does a fine job, have used it many times.

[THRobinson]

DVDFab worked pretty good.... long/slow.... but file came out with great quality and a good size.

VidCoder I'll give a 2nd attempt... 1st worked fine but, 3.5GB so trying again with 1.5GB set as a target size vs it automatically doing it. Which also showed the 2-pass option.

By default CQ was at 20, which made the file rather large. I'm aiming for 1.5GB to save some drive space. I'll have to use a target size instead. In which case... 2-pass might be needed because of compression (?).

[jagabo]

How long does it normally take to render an MKV for you guys?

As described earlier, about 20 minutes for me. Plus the rip time, a little setup, and a final mux of the h.264 video and the AC3 audio.

DVDFab, I had the '2-pass' option enabled, was about 6h... looks really good, 1.4GB which was the ideal size.

Why is 1.4GB the ideal size? When people were putting videos on 700 MB CDs it made sense to encode to 1.4GB (two 700 MB files). If you aren't putting videos on CDs there's no reason to stick with 700 MB or 1400MB files.

Does the 2-pass make a big difference? I know when using DVDShrink to make the movies fit to DVD-R, you definitely wanted that 2-pass/Deep Analysis enabled... took longer but very visible difference in quality.

2-pass is better than 1-pass if you are using bitrate based encoding.

Use bitrate based encoding when you want a file of a particular size. Use (single pass) quality based encoding (CRF in x264) when you want to assure the video is of a certain quality. The average bitrate turns out whatever is necessary to acheve that quality. Ie, with bitrate based encoding you select the bitrate (and hence the file size) but you don't know exactly what the quality will be. With quality based encoding you select the quality but you don't know exactly what the file size will be.

By default CQ was at 20, which made the file rather large.

Yes, but the next movie you encode at CRF 20 may come out at 800MB. And it will have the same visual quality (relative to the source). Encoding that video 1.5 GB will be a waste of bitrate.

Look at the videos in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/295672-A-problem-for-video-experts?p=1811057&viewfu...=1#post1811057

What if you encoded all your videos at 1400 kbps? Clean.avi would have turned out several times bigger than necessary. The others would look like crap. Yes, that was Xvid not x264, and the examples are extreme. But the issues are the same.

[THRobinson]

Why is 1.4GB the ideal size? When people were putting videos on 700 MB CDs it made sense to encode to 1.4GB (two 700 MB files). If you aren't putting videos on CDs there's no reason to stick with 700 MB or 1400MB files.

As mentioned, I wanted to save space over ISO copies of the DVDs, so around 1.5GB seems to produce very good quality and saves me a lot of space... have a few movies that were 720p Bluray rips at about 1.5GB, so figured 1.5GB for a DVD would be plenty.

I have a BIG collection, so, every GB counts.

So, 2nd pass it is... I figured with compression that was needed... I'd rather wait 2h for a rip than 1h, if it means higher quality. Thanks.

[jagabo]

(Note I added more to my previous post. This one too! LOL)

Every movie is different and will require a different amount of bitrate to maintain visual quality. Basing your decision to go with 2-pass encoding at 1.5 GB on a single movie is a mistake.

You should understand that these are two sides of the same coin. If you encode a video at CRF=20 and it happens to turn out at 1.5 GB, and go back and encode again using 2-pass VBR encoing to make a 1.5 GB file, the two videos will look nearly identical.

And you're wrong about fast encoding delivering inferior results over slow encoding. That's only true with bitrate based encoding. In CRF mode the file size gets smaller when you use settings that require more processing time -- but the visual quality will be similar. Ie, with slow settings the encoder spends more time looking for ways to compress the video more -- so the file size gets a little smaller.

[THRobinson]

Well... I understand that some DVDs are bigger than others, and 1.5GB as a target size will mean more/less compression from disc to disc... but at the same time, I'm trying to save space. If space wasn't an issue, I'd keep the ISO images I have now since they take way way less time to make than an MKV, and worry about video size, compression, resolution, etc...

Thing is, making an MKV file takes a long amount of time and not seeing an estimated final size on the VidCoder screen, just hate to have it run 2h to have a 4GB file which doesn't save me any space.

That being said, the last one I did was about 3.5GB and horrible... pixelated, blocks of random colours, unwatchable... that was CQ=20, running it now at a targeted 1.5GB with 2pass.... hopefully works this time. Not sure why it came out all messed up. DVDFab video was fine, but, hoping to get VidCoder running properly since allows multiple audio tracks when present.

[jagabo]

Well... I understand that some DVDs are bigger than others, and 1.5GB as a target size will mean more/less compression from disc to disc... but at the same time, I'm trying to save space. If space wasn't an issue, I'd keep the ISO images I have now since they take way way less time to make than an MKV, and worry about video size, compression, resolution, etc...

Thing is, making an MKV file takes a long amount of time and not seeing an estimated final size on the VidCoder screen, just hate to have it run 2h to have a 4GB file which doesn't save me any space.

Like I said before, most movies come out between 1 and 2 GB at CRF=18 (and are pretty much indistinguishable from the original DVD). At CRF=20 they will turn out smaller. CQ=20 will be a little larger than CRF=20.

That being said, the last one I did was about 3.5GB and horrible... pixelated, blocks of random colours, unwatchable... that was CQ=20

Then something went wrong. CQ=20 should always deliver the same visual quality. Obviously, it won't make a bad source look better.

[THRobinson]

Ya... if it fails again I'll try a different movie. I checked what's encoding now, clicked the preview and skipped through and every other segment was garbled. Store bought disc, no scratches, not sure what the deal is. Maybe just a fluke? 20min to go to see the results... :S

[aedipuss]

1.5gb is way too small for a good 720p bluray rip. 4-10gb is needed for a normal release.

[THRobinson]

1.5gb is way too small for a good 720p bluray rip. 4-10gb is needed for a normal release.

I'm doing DVD's.... but I do have a few MP4/MKV's that are 1.5GB-2GB 720p Bluray rips that have outstanding quality. Watching on a 40" Sony Bravia 1080p screen through my HTPC... not seeing an issue with them in any way. Not sure how they were ripped though but, totally happy with the quality.

One is a CGI movie, can see every detail perfectly. Can't see it being much better 2-5 times bigger.

[THRobinson]

Nope... no luck with VidCoder... had to join their site to post on their forum to find a fix.

Next disc I stuck in, loaded it and clicked the preview and right away everything was totally garbled and covered in brightly coloured blocks. Even did a full restart and tried again without anything else running thinking maybe XBMC was the cause (it's using hardware acceleration, which has known issues with FireFox when FireFox has acceleration enabled so was worth a shot) but no luck.

Not sure why VidCoder hates my system so much but, hoping to make it work since DVDFab doesn't yet have multiple audio track support. I could rip the audio tracks on their own I suppose and use another program to add the tracks into the MKV file, but, way more work and more potential for sync issues... and I have about 200 movies to run through. :S

[jagabo]

By the way, CQ mode in x264 is constant quality in a mathematical sense. CRF mode is similar but also takes into account what's visible to the human eye. CRF mode gives smaller file sizes with similar visual quality.

[aedipuss]

Nope... no luck with VidCoder... had to join their site to post on their forum to find a fix.

Next disc I stuck in, loaded it and clicked the preview and right away everything was totally garbled and covered in brightly coloured blocks. Even did a full restart and tried again without anything else running thinking maybe XBMC was the cause (it's using hardware acceleration, which has known issues with FireFox when FireFox has acceleration enabled so was worth a shot) but no luck.

Not sure why VidCoder hates my system so much but, hoping to make it work since DVDFab doesn't yet have multiple audio track support. I could rip the audio tracks on their own I suppose and use another program to add the tracks into the MKV file, but, way more work and more potential for sync issues... and I have about 200 movies to run through. :S

it must be a retail dvd. you still need a decrypter running to take care of the protection schemes. anydvd or DVDFab Passkey running in the background should take care of it.

[THRobinson]

Well, will look into that if I find a fix for VidCoder. DVDFab I don't think has those options... giving it another try while I wait for a response from the VidCoder forums.

Regardless of settings, right now this is what I'm getting from VidCoder. Again, tried two installs, then 15min ago found that there was a 64bit version so, uninstalled again, installed the 64bit and same results.

[THRobinson]

Hmm... maybe that's why DVDFab is working, probably has Passkey (or similar) built in.

They are retail DVDs, I've purchased them all, not downloads... just building a media server and hopefully eliminating he need to go through stacks of discs to watch a movie.

I'll have to give one of those drivers a try.

[jagabo]

Yes, what you are seeing is CSS encryption. Rip with DVD Fab (to decrypt the data as an ISO image or VIDEO_TS folder), then use whatever software you want to convert to h.264 MKV. That also explains why CQ=20 gave you such a huge file. All that garbage changes with each frame making it less compressible than normal video.

[THRobinson]

AnyDVD seems to be working... previews are visible at least.

So, where is CRF mode? I'm only seeing the Constant Quality option which I have at the defaulted 20... but not seeing CRF.

I'm converting to h.264 MKV, maybe it's under MP4?

[hardy]

I use AnyDVD with CloneDVD, choosing the main movie option and getting rid of unwanted audio. That usually brings the file size down a lot. Majority of my rips will fit on a single layer DVD just by copying the main movie only. I would do that, and THEN compress/encode the DVD to H.264.

[aedipuss]

vidcoder only does cq. i can't think of a x264 gui that does crf.