Need advice: transferring old football games on VHS to Blueray

[cheiferoni]

I have a hundred or so NFL football games from the 1970's to mid-80's that I want to preserve in digital format. They're a mix of VHS EP, LP and SP recordings. Since each game is around 3 hours in length I found burning to DVD in a good quality is just not feasible. I'm having my local tech guy custom build a computer for this project so he wants to know what hardware and specs I want to put in it.

There are 3 things I already have: A Hauppage HD PVR (1212), a DVDO Edge and HDFury2 1080P. I just bought this stuff because I want to do other things, such as recording videogame gameplay and haven't used them yet.

Any advice is appreciated - I'm at the beginner level here so any details you want to offer are helpfull. For example do I need a TV Tuner card, internal capture card or is my Hauppage ok? How much PC memory and CPU speed is recommended: is 8GB needed for video editing or is 4 ok? Any recommendations on Blueray DVD burners or video editing software? What format/size/setting should be used during the capture and burn etc?

I just want to make sure I get this project right, so thanks in advance for all responses!

[DB83]

Before you even start on the PC hardware you should look at the VCR. EP and LP !!. Do you still have the VCR that these tapes were recorded on ? If not, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise when you try to play them back on another VCR.

[fritzi93]

As to your HD-PVR, you should be okay. I've used it a fair bit for VHS captures. (Mind you, I've had trouble with capturing camcorder recordings, done by someone who didn't know what he was doing. My HD-PVR occasionally refused those and nothing I could do would make it work. Had to go to an older Leadtek HD Cinema card for those. But your VHS captures should be alright.)

A few things to consider:

1) You'll be capturing SD, and hardware encoding to H.264 transport streams.

2) If all you want to do is remove commercials, best not to convert. You can use tsSniper to edit out the adverts. It's not frame-accurate, cutting only on I-frames, but with a little practice it's good enough. I use it a lot to edit my HD-PVR captures. Converting would lose you some quality and it's gonna be an extra headache.

3) You can take your edited transport streams and author to AVCHD (sort of a Blu-Ray lite) and burn to DVDR instead of BDs. Use tsMuxer if you don't need menus, multiAVCHD if you do. So you don't necessarily need a Blu-ray burner. H.264 is very efficient, and you can easily get three hours of standard definition on an AVCHD at acceptable quality.

4) Most recently-manufactured Blu-Ray standalone players will Play AVCHD. (You could post your player model for confirmation.)

5) If you go the route I suggest above, any dual-core machine with at least 2GB of memory will do.

Good luck.

[cheiferoni]

Before you even start on the PC hardware you should look at the VCR. EP and LP !!. Do you still have the VCR that these tapes were recorded on ? If not, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise when you try to play them back on another VCR.

No, these came from several different sources (collectors who preserved the originals.) Most of them look pretty good, some of the EP's dont - but we're talking Terry Bradshaw versus Joe Montana so I dont care if it looks really bad.

[cheiferoni]

As to your HD-PVR, you should be okay. I've used it a fair bit for VHS captures. (Mind you, I've had trouble with capturing camcorder recordings, done by someone who didn't know what he was doing. My HD-PVR occasionally refused those and nothing I could do would make it work. Had to go to an older Leadtek HD Cinema card for those. But your VHS captures should be alright.)

A few things to consider:

1) You'll be capturing SD, and hardware encoding to H.264 transport streams.

2) If all you want to do is remove commercials, best not to convert. You can use tsSniper to edit out the adverts. It's not frame-accurate, cutting only on I-frames, but with a little practice it's good enough. I use it a lot to edit my HD-PVR captures. Converting would lose you some quality and it's gonna be an extra headache.

3) You can take your edited transport streams and author to AVCHD (sort of a Blu-Ray lite) and burn to DVDR instead of BDs. Use tsMuxer if you don't need menus, multiAVCHD if you do. So you don't necessarily need a Blu-ray burner. H.264 is very efficient, and you can easily get three hours of standard definition on an AVCHD at acceptable quality.

4) Most recently-manufactured Blu-Ray standalone players will Play AVCHD. (You could post your player model for confirmation.)

5) If you go the route I suggest above, any dual-core machine with at least 2GB of memory will do.

Good luck.

Ok, I'm getting a little confused with the differences between capturing, encoding, converting, editing and authoring.
I want to just keep them "as is" with the commercials left in and no menus are needed (you should see how cool some of those older commercials are.)

So let me get this straight - I run the VHS to my Hauppage which I assume will save the file as H.264. What do I do from there and what bitrate would you recommend? Do you recommend color correcting (I understand you can do that in Sony Vegas?) Please keep in mind I haven't used the Hauppage yet (I have to wait until the PC is built.)

Regarding my current DVD player - I have a few old ones and the only BlueRay I have is a PS3. I'm not too concerned about making them compatible with what I have on hand. That's great news that I wont need a Blueray burner so thanks for the advice!

[yoda313]

Regarding my current DVD player - I have a few old ones and the only BlueRay I have is a PS3.

yes the ps3 does avchd just fine. I have one and a hdpvr and it likes it just fine. It can also take the recorded m2ts files as they are burnt directly to a dvdr without anything being done to them (as long as they fit the disc).

I want to just keep them "as is" with the commercials left in and no menus are needed (you should see how cool some of those older commercials are.)

Than all you have to do is start recording at the beginning and stop recording at the end. Name the file after its done recording. From there you can backup a copy to dvdr and to an extra harddrive for safe keeping.

YOu can make menus and stuff if you author as avchd. If you just want to put a disc in and press play simply burn the m2ts file and you're done. (the hdpvr can record as m2ts, ts or mp4 - the ps3 seems to like the m2ts format the best but can do mp4 - I'm not sure if it reads the hdpvr ts files or not - it can play h264 of course but i don't know if it recognizes ts files).

What do I do from there and what bitrate would you recommend? Do you recommend color correcting (I understand you can do that in Sony Vegas?)

If you are not interested in editing why are you going to use sony vegas? It is an editor for doing things like fades and wipes and adding audio tracks and other techie movie wizardry like that.

As for bitrate you can go as high as you want really for sd. But as always file size = bitrate x length. How long your recording is also matters.

Have you done any capturing before? It seems like you are something of a novice. I would definitely practice a little.

And what is your vcr for playback? The better the vcr the better your capture will be. A svhs model would be better - a tbc would be a plus (a time base corrector).

----------------------

If there are only a few tapes you could consider a professional service for this.

edit - for avchd disc playback only bluray players or the ps3 can do that - and pcs of course. You would have to convert to dvd for them to work on a dvd player - thats a different topic than avchd.

[fritzi93]

Any filtering (like color correction) means re-encoding, which is CPU intensive and time-consuming. Not to mention you're dealing with lossy codecs, so there will be quality loss.

This is easy-peasy.

You set the bitrate on your HD-PVR. You access that in the Arcsoft capture module under "Format Settings". Download a bitrate calculator from the <-- Tools section and enter runtime to find out the bitrate you should use. If you use AC3 at 384 kbps and the target size is a DVDR, that would be about 3.0 Mbps for three hours. I use this one:

https://www.videohelp.com/tools/BitrateCalc

Since you don't want to edit (although surely you want to lop off the noise you get when starting/ending the capture), just load the transport stream into tsMuxer and select either AVCHD or Blu-Ray as output. (If you do get a Blu-Ray burner, you can load multiple games by using the "Join" button. I would make at least a top menu for a multiple episode disc, with multiAVCHD.)

Burn the output files with ImgBurn, which will apply the correct settings (it will prompt you, just click okay). AVCHDs will play on your PS3 just fine and have the added advantage of playing on most Blu_ray players.

[Beat me by a minute!]

[yoda313]

Beat me by a minute!]

i strike again!

[cheiferoni]

When I knew VHS players were phasing out I bought a nice SVHS and it's been preserved - still in new condition. I think it has the time correcting function. The reason I mentioned Sony Vegas is because I've seen youtube videos of guys who record PS3 gameplay onto a Hauppage and it comes out too dark. So they have to use Vegas to get the colors just right, I wasn't sure if this would be something I'd need to do for this project. It sounds like I'll be ok without it. A couple follow up questions...

1. According the the Hauppage user manual it recommends bitrates of at least 5 mb/s. If I have to use 3 mb/s to get 3 hours of SD onto one DVD will that muck the quality?

2. After reading your advice it turns out I may not need a new computer after all! Since the Hauppage software allows you to turn live preview off I may be able to use it on my old system. It's a DELL XPS 600: P4, 3.6 GHz, 2GB RAM with two GeForce 256 MB videocards on SL1. Do you think there will be any problems with those specs? I would test it out but am waiting for some cables to arrive from monoprice.

3. On a side note, I want to record PS3 gaming onto the Hauppage and make edits such as adding text, audio commentary and maybe fixing any issues with the color. Is there any cheap or freeware software solutions to do this? It seems like the "pros" all use Vegas.

You guys rock thanks!

[yoda313]

1 - again you need to use a bitrate calculator - depends on your destination too - single layer or dual layer disc? And if you use a media player like wdtv or a htpc you won't need to worry as size wouldn't matter when playing from a harddrive.

2 - Is that p4 a dual core? If it is it shouldn't be a problem. If its a single core you're probably in for a world of hurt. Dual core should be minimum for working with h264 - also check the hdpvr specs I'm not sure what its minimum requirements to operate are. Start with the hdpvr minimum and work from there.

3 - There is a simple proc amp for hdpvr. I haven't used it for tweaking however, I leave it on its defaults. I'm not sure what the built ins are capable of.

For simple adding of audio tracks something like tsmuxer should work. Adding text as in titles over a video is a bit more complex. If you are using a single core pc good luck - it would take a long time to load and edit the video. A dual core will still be a bit slow when working with h264 in a video editor - however if you only working with standard definition in h264 it shouldn't be as taxing on your system.

If you want realtime abilities without any post processing you could look into those editing decks that let you add text and stuff like that before the video is recorded. I've never had realworld experience with them. But that would be the easiest way to do it. they also have proc amps that would be external too. Again working with standard definiton simplifies this and should make these external units cheaper. Then you could just do the video overlays in real time and record that directly as would doing realtime color correction (in the external box that gets fed to the capture unit).

Again this is a realtime alternative if you have a real slow computer. If you have at least a dual core computer you should be able to do some of this reasonable well in video editors in post production. You might be able to do some of this in virtualdub. How much I am not sure as I don't edit much and I haven't used vdub for editing anyway.

You could convert the h264 video to something windows movie maker recognizes. It might already accept hauppauge hdpvr captured files natively. If it does great otherwise you'll have to convert to mpeg2 or dv-avi to import to wmm. Than you can use wmm to do graphic overlays and add audio tracks and the like. From there you can output to dv-avi or other formats as you deem necessary.

Again if there are only a few tapes it would save you considerable time and angst by having a professional do it for you. If you are going to be using this equipment for other purposes anyway than it won't be a waste of money.

Of course there is no harm in attempting it yourself. Just be aware you are going to need patience and practice. Also lots of testing is good. Just do short clips and play with it. A good idea also is to have lots of folders set up for practice sessions so you know what works and what doesn't. Rename folders for outputs that give the results you want. Write down either on paper or in notepad what programs you used and in what order and what settings. Than you can repeat the process later on.

[DB83]

Before you even start on the PC hardware you should look at the VCR. EP and LP !!. Do you still have the VCR that these tapes were recorded on ? If not, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise when you try to play them back on another VCR.

No, these came from several different sources (collectors who preserved the originals.) Most of them look pretty good, some of the EP's dont - but we're talking Terry Bradshaw versus Joe Montana so I dont care if it looks really bad.

If the tapes play OK then that is fine. It is often the case that EP and LP tapes recorded on other systems will not play back without serious tracking issues.

On this side of the pond we play football with a different shape ball and I do not have a clue who Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana were.

But when it comes to actually putting these recordings on to disk you may wish to consider this. Your aim appears to put these on standard dvd disks - there does not seem to be any advantage in using blu-ray as that will not mean an increase in quality and you will still only have two to three hours per disk. You have low quality VHS originals so half-D1 (352*480) will probably suffice and you may well squeeze that 3 hour recording on to one.

[yoda313]

On this side of the pond we play football with a different shape ball and I do not have a clue who Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana were.

Yep this is NFL talk. Joe Montana was probably one of the best "modern era" quarterbacks there was. Terry Bradshaw was also a very good quarterback who does broadcasting for the Fox television NFL broadcasts.

Google if you want to know more - think of Montana in the same vein as Joe Namath if you know that name from NFL history - much later of course.

[fritzi93]

According the the Hauppage user manual it recommends bitrates of at least 5 mb/s. If I have to use 3 mb/s to get 3 hours of SD onto one DVD will that muck the quality?

Read it again. That recommendation is for "recording high definition", unspecified resolution, but it actually means 1080i. I would peg it at 4.5 absolute minimum for reasonable quality, but there you are.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're recording 480i SD, which requires less bitrate still. Less resolution = fewer bits required. I can't tell you how low you can go with SD as I haven't tested it, but I will tell you that when the bitrate gets marginal, picture quality drops rapidly. So I'd say it's not a straight-line correlation. For 1080i, a bitrate above 4.5 should be okay (depending on the source), below it looks terrible regardless.

If you simply calculate the number of pixels by resolution, it would appear that one could perhaps go as low as 1.0 Mbps for SD, but I wouldn't count on it, I'd want to test it to be sure.

[EDIT] Just to add: I have my HD cable box set to 720p output (remember, the HD-PVR records at source resolution), and have recorded a whole day's worth of movies at 2.3 Mbps for later viewing. It looks about the same as original. Which is to say not great, as the source (EncoreHD movie channel) is bitrate-starved to begin with. I've tried a little lower and am pretty sure I can detect degradation of quality.

Anything you record will suffer a little quality loss due to use of a lossy codec, it's unavoidable. But if the bitrate is adequate, it should be undetectable on home equipment. Now if it goes through several generations of decompression/recompression, quality loss gets to be significant. That's why I say take your transport stream as-is and author to AVCHD.

[cheiferoni]

Football fan, eh? Since you've been so helpfull if you guys want me to send you a copy of the game (Bradshaw only faced Montana once) PM me your address. Or let me know who your fav team is and I'll see what I have.

depends on your destination too - single layer or dual layer disc? And if you use a media player like wdtv or a htpc you won't need to worry as size wouldn't matter when playing from a harddrive.

2 - Is that p4 a dual core? If it is it shouldn't be a problem. If its a single core you're probably in for a world of hurt. Dual core should be minimum for working with h264 - also check the hdpvr specs I'm not sure what its minimum requirements to operate are. Start with the hdpvr minimum and work from there.

I dont know anything about dual layer, will have to read up on that. I'd prefer a solution where the burn is a 1-step process and you wont have to flip the disk when burning or viewing?

My P4 desktop is not dual core but here's the thing: The Hauppage requires minimum dual core computer, but after researching this forum I discovered that's only because the live preview function during a recording is very CPU intensive (the Hauppage itself does all the video processing from what I understand.) Apparently the PVR software has an option to disable the preview which means you can record it onto a slower system (but you cant see the playback while it's doing so.) So that part is covered, what I'm not sure of is if the authoring will be ok? I also have an old laptop which is first generation dual core, but overall the desktop seems like the stronger system.

Thanks for all he editing advice, but I was referring to recording of PS3 gameplay (on those projects I will need to do some minor editing.) With the football games I wont need to do any editing as long as the colors come through ok.

[cheiferoni]

Read it again. That recommendation is for "recording high definition", unspecified resolution, but it actually means 1080i. I would peg it at 4.5 absolute minimum for reasonable quality, but there you are.

That's great news thanks. Reading it again yea it says minimum 5 mb/s for "HD" but it also says in general the higher bitrate = better video quality. But if you're saying I'm ok with 3 mb/s that's perfect because I do want to back these up on HD's.

[fritzi93]

Try it yourself and see. Then try another capture (same source material, mind you) at a higher/lower bitrate. Compare.

Don't take anyone's word for it. Good luck.

[yoda313]

I'd prefer a solution where the burn is a 1-step process and you wont have to flip the disk when burning or viewing?

That is on the same side of the disc. There are flipper discs of course but none for the home burning market that I am aware of.

The layer is sandwidched on the one side that is burnt to. It is the same setup of manufactured discs - but home discs are burnt not pressed like the manufactured ones.

Dual layers cost a bit more but not anywhere near what they used to.

If you are unfamiliar with dual layer discs you may not have a dual layer burner in your machine. You say it is a single core machine? Depending on how old it actually is it may not have shipped with a dual layer burner. Nowadays virtually all stock pcs seem to have dual layer burners.

If you want to do dual layer discs and need a new drive they are only about 35.00 new or so. replacing a drive is easy too. If you've opened your computer at all you should be able to do it with a fair amount of ease. There is plenty of information online on how to do it if you haven't before.

[themaster1]

Don't forget a little proc amp in the mix i can only imagine what 70s ,80s tapes look like now.