Choppy playback after converting an MPEG...

[takearushfan]

Hi all,

Before proceeding, I'll mention that I attached a "MediaInfo" file, if it'll help at all. The report is on the original, full, unconverted movie...

Anyway, I've run into the following problem with both Vegas and Premiere. I did nothing but take a short clip from said film and tried to convert it from ".mpeg" to a format I thought would be even more DVD-compliant. When I play the clip back (now converted to a DVD) in WinDVD, it'll play fine for about 15 seconds, then it begins playing in a choppy manner. I tried to see what would happen when adding chapters and after each one begins it's a similar situation, but the duration is even shorter, at around 5 seconds before playing choppily. However, it plays fine in VirtualDub.

I'm not sure if it has something to do with the file I'm working with, what I'm converting to, what apps are used, etc. I used DVD-lab PRO 2 for the authoring.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

Thanks,

Justin

[manono]

No MediaInfo file, no sample. What help can anyone possibly provide?

[takearushfan]

Yeah, I noticed when I closed my browser. Brilliant move, ugh.

[takearushfan]

Dang... what'll it take before I actually get the thing attached?!

Finally. *wow, I'm off to a great start!*

[AlanHK]

You can just paste text into your post, use CODE tags to keep formatting:

General
Complete name                    : C:\...\Carnival Of Souls.mpeg
Format                           : MPEG-PS
File size                        : 2.05 GiB
Duration                         : 1h 22mn
Overall bit rate                 : 3 538 Kbps

Video
ID                               : 224 (0xE0)
Format                           : MPEG Video
Format version                   : Version 2
Format profile                   : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP            : Yes
Format settings, Matrix          : Default
Format settings, GOP             : M=3, N=15
Duration                         : 1h 22mn
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 3 000 Kbps
Width                            : 720 pixels
Height                           : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 4:3
Frame rate                       : 29.970 fps
Standard                         : NTSC
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Scan order                       : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.290
Stream size                      : 1.75 GiB (85%)

Audio
ID                               : 128 (0x80)
Format                           : AC-3
Format/Info                      : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension                   : CM (complete main)
Duration                         : 1h 22mn
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 448 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Channel positions                : Front: L R
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                        : 16 bits
Video delay                      : -67ms
Stream size                      : 266 MiB (13%)

[poisondeathray]

since it's already dvd compliant (you started with a dvd ) , why not just cut a section out without re-encoding? e.g. use mpeg2cut2 , or avidemux in copy mode, or videoredo ? or are you using filters or doing something that requires you to re-encode ?

[manono]

It's already DVD compliant. Why'd you reencode it? If whatever authoring app you use wants elementary streams, then just demux it (DGIndex, among other apps). And why'd you use Vegas and Premiere for anything having to do with this thing? I mean, I might want to IVTC it and otherwise filter it to improve the (probably) lousy quality before reencoding it myself, but I wouldn't use those programs. Nor would I ever get within 10 feet of WinDVD. Cut with MPEG2Cut, demux, IVTC and filter via AviSynth if you like, reencode if you like, reauthor with Muxman, and it'll play as did the original MPEG.

(I hear an echo in here. )

[takearushfan]

Hi again,

I don't know what the original file I have might've been through. I found it online, from a Public Domain website. For all I know it's already been converted back and forth and been through hell.

My reason for using Premiere is to attempt some restoration/cleanup. I take it that Vegas and Premiere are lousy at doing such things? ... I mean, why do you frown upon them? ... and WinDVD?

I'm assuming the tools you guys mentioned are some of the best alternatives to what I've been using?

[manono]

You said the result played jerky, didn't you? So, somewhere along the line you or the software you used screwed up, didn't it?

Sorry about insulting WinDVD. I was thinking of WinAVI. Anyway, why pay for DVD playing software when there are free ones available? Did you try something else to play the DVD (a real DVD player and not VDub). Or maybe WinAVI was included with your computer or some other software?

One IVTC's in AviSynth. Many people also do their other filtering in AviSynth.

[takearushfan]

You said the result played jerky, didn't you? So, somewhere along the line you or the software you used screwed up, didn't it?

Sorry about insulting WinDVD. I was thinking of WinAVI. Anyway, why pay for DVD playing software when there are free ones available? Did you try something else to play the DVD (a real DVD player and not VDub). Or maybe WinAVI was included with your computer or some other software?

One IVTC's in AviSynth. Many people also do their other filtering in AviSynth.

Well, it must be the software, since VDub played it fine, albeit crappier looking.

The main filters I'd be using would be those for sharpening and noise reduction. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to use AviSynth, as it's script-based and a bit intimidating. Though, I suppose it's worth trying out.

[manono]

XviD4PSP uses AviSynth but makes its use and the addition of both sharpening and noise reduction filters easy and painless. You might try that.

[takearushfan]

Thanks. BTW, I hadn't heard of IVTC before and had to look it up. Is its main purpose to improve picture quality? How well does it work?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks. BTW, I hadn't heard of IVTC before and had to look it up. Is its main purpose to improve picture quality? How well does it work?

Film rate is 24p , which isn't compatible with NTSC systems which are 60Hz . So it has to be either flagged/packaged or hard encoded in a way that is 60 fields per second (actually 59.94, we just say 60 for rounding). That is essentially telecine . IVTC = inverse telecine, and is reversing that process and recovering the progressive frames

premiere and vegas are editing software , not restoration software. Not a good choice

I would start from the original source (or as original as you can get) . Since it's public domain , start with that. If you start with a DVD, you are incurring additional generation/compression losses, which is detrimental for any restoration efforts. If you post a sample some people can give you suggestions to clean it up

[filmboss80]

What presets are being used in Vegas and Premiere? DV? If so, DV-AVI is bottom field first (BFF), while typically (but not always) MPEG files are top field first (TFF). That jerkiness may be a mere field mismatch.

[takearushfan]

Hm. If I post a sample, what would be the ideal format... I'm assuming as-is?

[manono]

That's right, from the source. One way is to open it in DGIndex, mark off a small section with steady movement using the [ and ] buttons and then go File->Save Project and Demux Video. If the resulting M2V is good enough and small enough, upload it to Sendspace or MediaFire and give us a link.

[takearushfan]

Okay. Sorry for the delayed reply. Here's the M2V link:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/oltg8l

[manono]

It's just standard hard telecine that just needs a standard IVTC, something like TIVTC's TFM().TDecimate. It can also use other cleaning up. Included is the reencoded sample that used the script below, although I'm sure others would do it differently:

TFM()
TDecimate()
Crop(14,4,-8,0)
LanczosResize(704,480)
Tweak(Sat=0,Cont=0.91,Coring=False)
FFT3DFilter(Sigma=1.5,BT=5,BW=32,BH=32,OW=16,OH=16 ,Sharpen=0.4)
AddBorders(8,0,8,0)
ConvertToYUY2()#for CCE

[takearushfan]

Hm. Despite my looking up the term, I'm still not too sure what took place here. I see that the frame rate has been restored, which is something I do recall reading, but what else did your IVTC do? It looks like it's now de-interlaced...? (I must frequently remind myself that there are no stupid questions)

[manono]

Although one effect is to remove the interlacing, it's not been deinterlaced as such. A deinterlacer wasn't used, but a field matcher (TFM) and decimator (TDecimate). They match up the fields and toss out the duplicates. You have to have an understanding of telecine and 3:2 pulldown before knowing what an IVTC (InVerse TeleCine) does:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Scroll a little way down to The Nature of Interlaced TV, Film-to-Video Conversion, and Other Interesting Gambits and specifically to the Re-Interleaving 24fps Film part. Reinterleaving is what they call IVTC (better than what most such articles call it, which is deinterlacing). That whole page is worth memorizing.

Or this article which actually has a section called Reverse telecine (a.k.a. inverse telecine (IVTC), reverse pulldown):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown#3:2_pulldown

There's a zillion articles on this stuff. All you have to do is look them up.

[takearushfan]

Just a quick stop-by to say thank you. I appreciate the info
I'll check it out in a bit

[takearushfan]

It's just standard hard telecine that just needs a standard IVTC, something like TIVTC's TFM().TDecimate. It can also use other cleaning up. Included is the reencoded sample that used the script below, although I'm sure others would do it differently:

TFM()
TDecimate()
Crop(14,4,-8,0)
LanczosResize(704,480)
Tweak(Sat=0,Cont=0.91,Coring=False)
FFT3DFilter(Sigma=1.5,BT=5,BW=32,BH=32,OW=16,OH=16 ,Sharpen=0.4)
AddBorders(8,0,8,0)
ConvertToYUY2()#for CCE

Hm. What plugins were required for this script to run properly? For that matter, can you recommend some plugins that are specifically intended for cleanup? I've noticed that it can be tough to not overdo it when applying certain filters. Apparently, the "less is more" cliche tends to apply rather frequently in this case.

[manono]

The ones I used in that script also did some cleaning up. Tweak, Crop, the resize, AddBorders and ConvertToYUY2 are included in AviSynth, so no special plugin is required. The 3rd party filters in the script are the IVTC (TIVTC's TFM and TDecimate) and the FFT3DFilter. Both can be found here:

http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

Read the doc included with FFT3DFilter for special install instructions. Also, in that 'best' mode it's fairly slow. Read the doc for faster settings if you want them. It's the 3D cleaning filter I used on that one. Or, use different filters:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/External_filters

[takearushfan]

Thanks. Regarding the speed, I'd rather have it take forever for better quality than to speed it up and sacrifice quality.