Black Friday deal on Verbatim discs

[JohnnyBob]

free shipping...

Verbatim 8.5GB 8X DVD+R DL 30 Packs Disc Model 96542 - OEM $34.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817130040

Verbatim 4.7GB 16X DVD-R 100 Packs Disc Model 95102 - Retail $19.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817507005

(offer ends 11/29/2009)

hope they're the good ones

[jman98]

Unless things have changed Verbatim's 8x DL media has been made only in Singapore. You have to buy the cheaper and slower speed rated DL discs to have a chance to get Made In India ones.

[JohnnyBob]

made in Singapore is no longer a guarantee of good quality
Verbatim has turned it into a crap game
you roll the dice and hope for the best
sometimes you get lucky

[jman98]

made in Singapore is no longer a guarantee of good quality
Verbatim has turned it into a crap game
you roll the dice and hope for the best
sometimes you get lucky

JohnnyBob has posted this a lot in the forums. Readers can make up their own minds about it. I've not had problems with Verbatim Made in Singapore media. Whether he is right or wrong, there really is no alternative in the USA to Verbatim for DL media, so it's not like he's got a better idea.

[JohnnyBob]

made in Singapore is no longer a guarantee of good quality
Verbatim has turned it into a crap game
you roll the dice and hope for the best
sometimes you get lucky

JohnnyBob has posted this a lot in the forums. Readers can make up their own minds about it. I've not had problems with Verbatim Made in Singapore media. Whether he is right or wrong, there really is no alternative in the USA to Verbatim for DL media, so it's not like he's got a better idea.

Right! We all have different experiences. I'm only reporting mine. Sometimes the Verbatim discs I've received have been crap.

I've burned about 1500 total DVDs to date, mostly DVD videos/movies plus a few data backups, using 6-7 different burners, LG and Liteon models. Initially I used Nero to burn, but had problems with the DL burns, so switched to Imgburn which I use exclusively now. I started monitoring my burns with CD/DVDSpeed about halfway through and have quality scanned about 800 burned discs, so far. About half of the discs were single layer 16x Taiyo Yudens (TYG03), the other half 2.4x-8x Verbatim DVD+R DL (MKM001 and MKM003), and a small sample of other types (maybe 5%). So I've purchased that many discs, mostly over the past 3-4 years, mostly in smaller amounts/batches. Almost all of them were bought online from the usual vendors - Newegg, Supermediastore, Merit, Rima, and Microcenter. If I had received only good quality discs, I would say so - but that's not the case. The Taiyo Yudens have been fairly reliable, so far, although the last batch I received was lower quality than previously. The Verbatims hadn't been as reliable.

Initially I had very good luck with 95310 spindles of 2.4x Verbatim DVD+R DL (MKM001), all supergood quality. I thought Verbatim was perfection, but that was a naive perspective, just beginner's luck. Then there was the "made in India" debacle with a high coaster rate and playback problems, as mirrored by their lousy scans with CD/DVDSpeed. Those were 95310 spindles made in India. I then made every effort to obtain the made in Singapore type, but it was a crapshoot. You never knew what kind would be shipped. The vendors couldn't/wouldn't say in most cases.

Because of that, I switched to the 8x Verbatim DVD+R DL (MKM003) kind, which have come in different size spindles, 15-30. The first couple of batches I received were good quality, so that seemed to be another perfect solution. However when I ordered them again, in a larger amount, they were usable but of lower quality. So the MKM003's I've received have been of non-uniform quality. I'm continuing to use them because there's nothing better. I ordered a new batch today, a year's supply, and have my fingers crossed. Will I be lucky this time? Nobody knows. It's purely a crapshoot folks!

Last year, I thought I'd sample 95310 (MKM001) again, and received a spindle of the made in Singapore kind. Those were the worst discs I've ever tried, worse than the made in India discs. They had serious burn and playback problems, and the worst CD/DVDSpeed scans I've ever seen (PIE totals over 1 million). I tried burning several but most of that spindle sets unused on my shelf.

So like it or not, I must stick with the 8x MKM003's, and the 96542 spindles of 30 are as good a bet as any. It is, after all, a gamble - because you never know what you've going to get. Unfortunately Verbatim has become an unreliable brand, with lots of variance in quality.

[lordsmurf]

LG burners are skewing your experience -- those drives are notoriously picky with all MKM/MCC media.

[JohnnyBob]

LG burners are skewing your experience -- those drives are notoriously picky with all MKM/MCC media.

With all due respect, I don't believe anything is skewed here except your inveterate defense of Verbatim, and your persistent anti-quality scan (CD/DVDSpeed) stance.

If LG burners are notoriously picky with MKM/MCC media, why haven't I heard about it? What is your reference(s) in support? That's not supported by my experience with LG burners and MKM media. (I don't use MCC)

I've tried 3 different LG burner models, and 3 different models of Liteon. I've made lots of comparisons between them, using different media and burn speeds. Usually the LG models are as good or better at burning MKM001/MKM003 media, so I normally use it for DL burns. Usually the Liteons are better at burning single layer media such as TYG03.

As for burn speeds, I believe faster speeds are best with the current fast drive models. It doesn't seem to be true that burning slower produces a better, more reliable burn, as is often heard from "experts". The opposite seems to be the case. Maybe that was true with the old slower burners, but not anymore. Occasionally a fast burn goes bad, but most fast burns are better than slow burns - in my experience. Thus I usually burn single layer 16x discs at 16x, and 8x DL discs at 8x.

[Seeker47]

Unless things have changed Verbatim's 8x DL media has been made only in Singapore. You have to buy the cheaper and slower speed rated DL discs to have a chance to get Made In India ones.

I never take a chance (on Verbatims) --> insist on seeing what I'm buying. Recently bought a 20-spindle of the Verb DLs at a Best Buy location for $30. (That was probably a sale price, but I just happened to see it on the shelf.) The label said MIS. In the past, they've often had mostly MII on the shelves, with the same packaging, but I always check the label and pass on those.

The catalog # does not necessarily tell the whole story, and not just for point of origin. I still have some of these (from a good while ago) that were rated "up to 8x" on appropriate burners; now they all say "up to 6x." There has also been another Verb DL catalog # (MIS only), that shows a rating of "up to 10x." These are still seen sometimes, but come in 5-packs or 10-packs. If there are spindles of these, I've never seen them. They are substantially more expensive, about $4 / disc. I doubt they are worth that difference.

As to burn speed, I don't have much of a choice at the moment. The Samsung burner I'm using most of the time now seems to be ailing, and only does reliable burns of 8x media at 4x, or 3x for DL. This is the same no matter what burning app, but I use ImgBurn whenever possible.

[lordsmurf]

Max burning speed (16x@16x) is as unreliable as minimum speed (1x@16x). Best speed for a 16x disc is 12x or 8x. 4x-6x gets a bit more unreliable. 1x-2x should not even be allowed, coaster is inevitable. Packet writing is fine. Faster than 16x is stupid, tends to just coaster out on the outer edge.

DL media is best at 2.4x on a 2.4x disc (even the "up to 4x/6x discs"), 4x can be okay in some drives. 6x usually fails. On 8x discs, 4x is best, 6x is okay, 8x is usually not great.

Personal experiences are fine, but your individual experience does not override the general experience. This is why cdfreaks has so many weird posters -- for example, people who insist CMC is a "great disc" because of some test/blah-blah-blah when people generally find them to be near-crap media. If you happen to have a great experience where nobody else does -- great! -- but don't be surprised if people are skeptical, and you need to be willing to accept that you have an unusually good experience.

I don't recall 3x being a valid speed.

[JohnnyBob]

Max burning speed (16x@16x) is as unreliable as minimum speed (1x@16x). Best speed for a 16x disc is 12x or 8x. 4x-6x gets a bit more unreliable. 1x-2x should not even be allowed, coaster is inevitable. Packet writing is fine. Faster than 16x is stupid, tends to just coaster out on the outer edge.

DL media is best at 2.4x on a 2.4x disc (even the "up to 4x/6x discs"), 4x can be okay in some drives. 6x usually fails. On 8x discs, 4x is best, 6x is okay, 8x is usually not great.

Personal experiences are fine, but your individual experience does not override the general experience. This is why cdfreaks has so many weird posters -- for example, people who insist CMC is a "great disc" because of some test/blah-blah-blah when people generally find them to be near-crap media. If you happen to have a great experience where nobody else does -- great! -- but don't be surprised if people are skeptical, and you need to be willing to accept that you have an unusually good experience.

I don't recall 3x being a valid speed.

Great play on words! Who is keeper of the holy grail of the general experience? Perhaps you are more entitled because of your longer experience in this area. At the same time, my personal experience is part of the general experience, as is yours, now that we've both made it a part of the public experience. So there!

On my equipment, my experience with 16x single layer discs is similar to what you advocate, but not entirely. Burning at less than 8x significantly lowers the quality, while burning faster then 16x is too unreliable. Although 8x-12x is usually acceptable, I see no need for it. Burning them at 16x works just as good or better for me. Possibly burning faster causes slightly more coasters or really bad burns, but not a lot. That doesn't worry me because I quality scan all of my burns and toss out the occasional bad one. The result is that most of my quality scans look significantly better than if I burn at slower speeds.

I don't use 8x single layer media (so far). They might be more compatible with some older standalone DVD players or some really cheap ones. For example I tried a new $20 GPX player the other day (on special sale) and it had trouble reading my 16x TYG03's - bad audio, skips, freezes, etc. Naturally it went back to the store promptly for a refund. I don't have problems as long as I stick with better quality players, avoiding the lowest price rung. If it supports HDMI, it's probably acceptable quality (even though I don't use HDMI). Magnavox seems to be the only one in this category keeping the S-Video output connector which I need.

As for 8x DL media, I get good results burning them at 8x. I've tried slower speeds but believe the overall quality scans look better at 8x. I haven't had any reliability problems burning at 8x. I've ventured to burn a few at 10x but had problems.

Re 2.4x DL discs, it depends on what the drive's firmware offers. There's no choice with my drives. My Liteons only offer to burn them at 2.4x, and my LGs only offer 4x. I use the LGs at 4x because it produces better quality scans than the Liteons, in general. I would probably try burning them faster or slower for testing purposes, if I could.

[lordsmurf]

I burn 16x at 16x and generally don't have issues either -- but that's an atypical result. Several of my drives coaster out with TY DVD-R, but again, atypical experience. I don't see the need to mention all these things, because it just muddies the conversation and confuses people. Skimmers would see "burn 16x" and "TY bad" and then re-bury their head in the sand.

There are a lot of factors here, ranging from drive speeds (source), burner buffers and disc write strategies, to plain old wobble quality. Rather than explain a gigantic list of near-limitless scenarios where 16x@16x might work and might not -- it's just easier for all involved to leave it at 8x-12x, and call it sage advice.

I finally was able to get about 500 of those Verbatim UAE discs. Wondering if this will skew my personal results any.

[LCSHG]

JohnnyBob


Burning some 1500 disks Should make you an expert on disks
I use both Verbatim and Ridata
What do you think of the Ridata

In a stand alone the burning speed is mainly around 4x max
In a PC one can go for max speed
I would go with [ lordsmurf] as to disk speed
Given that the burner is working OK and in using specific software for burns at 4x 8x or 12x does not in my view increase or decrease quality 16x can and in o many cases results in a Bad burn. Quality is not an issue

[lordsmurf]

1,500 is still a casual user.

Content producers that do their own in-house duplication can average that many per month. My last project by itself was about 300 discs, and those were just for the masters.

I added some RITEKF1 TDK-branded into the mix for the test-run dupes. I was not unhappy. Being Ritek media, that was a bit unusual. But I welcomed it. The discs were even a Smurfy light-blue color!

Dupe facilities run into 6-digit output per month.

[JohnnyBob]

In conclusion...

I suggest that folks test and evaluate things for themselves, figure out what works best for their equipment and objectives, and go with it. Don't trust the self-appointed "experts" here, who can be helpful but often mislead.

[LCSHG]

lordsmurf wrote

1,500 is still a casual user.

Content producers that do their own in-house duplication can average that many per month. My last project by itself was about 300 discs, and those were just for the masters.

I added some RITEKF1 TDK-branded into the mix for the test-run dupes. I was not unhappy. Being Ritek media, that was a bit unusual. But I welcomed it. The discs were even a Smurfy light-blue

I would agree.
on many occasions I have drfended the Ridata Disks and I hane used quite a number of them Without problems But a few weeks back I burned a Ridata blank disk. I didn't play it for several weeks It QUICK checked OK and did play frm start to finish
BUTwhen playing it to watch, close to the start it paused for about 2sec in inabout 3 places, and played on. Towards the end it paused for about 6 times that lasted for about 10sec each but did play on to the ending.
THe disk was checked abd no imperfections were found.
THe program was still on the HDD [a 5045 that was not used often] and had a New 1673s. The program worked fine fron the HDD and new dissks were burned on a Varbatim and Ridata dusks both -R. Both worked perfectly
Going through a disk with FF or by chapters does not always show up such problems. I will go through tthe other RIdata's When I play them or as I can find time
Hopefully its an isolated case, afterall it was 1 disk BUT as--lordmurf said the slightly lower cost of the Ridata is nit wirth the hassle



JohnnyBob
Did not really answer my question except Try It You May Like It

[samijubal]

Not much of a deal. I paid a little over $13/100 AR for the last couple of spindles I bought.

I've been using Verbs for a few years since the Valueline TYs got too flaky for me. I've yet to have a problem with a single disc, MIT or MII. That's in standalone recorders and PC burners both.

[Noahtuck]

JohnnyBob

[JohnnyBob]

Noahtuk

[JohnnyBob]

lordsmurf wrote

1,500 is still a casual user.

Content producers that do their own in-house duplication can average that many per month. My last project by itself was about 300 discs, and those were just for the masters.

I added some RITEKF1 TDK-branded into the mix for the test-run dupes. I was not unhappy. Being Ritek media, that was a bit unusual. But I welcomed it. The discs were even a Smurfy light-blue

I would agree.
on many occasions I have drfended the Ridata Disks and I hane used quite a number of them Without problems But a few weeks back I burned a Ridata blank disk. I didn't play it for several weeks It QUICK checked OK and did play frm start to finish
BUTwhen playing it to watch, close to the start it paused for about 2sec in inabout 3 places, and played on. Towards the end it paused for about 6 times that lasted for about 10sec each but did play on to the ending.
THe disk was checked abd no imperfections were found.
THe program was still on the HDD [a 5045 that was not used often] and had a New 1673s. The program worked fine fron the HDD and new dissks were burned on a Varbatim and Ridata dusks both -R. Both worked perfectly
Going through a disk with FF or by chapters does not always show up such problems. I will go through tthe other RIdata's When I play them or as I can find time
Hopefully its an isolated case, afterall it was 1 disk BUT as--lordmurf said the slightly lower cost of the Ridata is nit wirth the hassle

JohnnyBob
Did not really answer my question except Try It You May Like It

Burning 1500 discs successfully and quality scanning about half of them with CD/DVDSpeed is certainly more than a casual user! My guess is that's probably in the upper 95%+ of this forum's members, but I haven't seen any statistics in that regard. But also, what is the definition of casual user and what exactly does that imply? I propose that it's just another meaningless play on words, of no particular significance. The intention seems to be to undermine, mischaracterize, and deflect. Why am I put forth as the issue? I don't think that's a proper debating tactic. Of course burning X number of discs doesn't automatically make anyone an expert - broader longer experience and a variety of projects is more likely indicative in that regard. I claim no particular level of expertise but am above the "beginner" stage. Like most people I know a lot about very little.

I've only ventured to buy one spindle of Ritek DVDs and they were terrible quality. I tried burning a few and quit. I can't imagine anyone using them for backups of their movie collection, which is my only interest. (I have no commercial involvements or interests; this is all just a hobby for me. I suspect that others in this thread may have commercial ties and motivations.)

Frequent short pauses, skips, and freezes suggests an incompatibility between the disc type and the DVD player. You'll get that most frequently with cheap low-end DVD players. If buying one now, I recommend getting one of at least HDMI capability even if you don't use HDMI. I've tried several current models, and the Magnavox DP170MW8B for about $40 from Walmart is decent, at least it plays all my discs OK. Their cheaper lower-end Magnavox DP100MW8B is a piece of junk, as are most in that lower price range. I tried a GPX model the other day on special sale for $20 and it wouldn't play my 16x TY properly - bad audio and frequent tracking problems. If it's one of those tiny little DVD players priced under $40 US, it probably won't work very well.

So back to my original intent in starting this thread, just to let folks know about a deal. I've been following the Verbatim prices for quite awhile and don't expect to find lower prices during 2010. Of course I could be wrong, it's like predicting the stock market, I guess. Nobody knows for sure. You rolls the dice and you takes your chances...

[JohnnyBob]

Not much of a deal. I paid a little over $13/100 AR for the last couple of spindles I bought.

I've been using Verbs for a few years since the Valueline TYs got too flaky for me. I've yet to have a problem with a single disc, MIT or MII. That's in standalone recorders and PC burners both.

From what I've heard, anything under $20/100 for single layer Verbs is a good deal, but would welcome knowing a cheaper source. I've never tried them before, but ordered a spindle because I'm uncertain about the future of TY, for various reasons. What's "AR" mean?

[lordsmurf]

@LCSHG,
you ran into the infamous Ritek dye reflectivity issue. The data is there, but the discs are harder to read than better discs, such as MCC AZO dye based media, or even TY's own dyes. From what I understand about dye, TY and Ritek really are not all that different (purely organic), which makes it more odd how good TY is, and how much Ritek tends to straddle the marker between "good" and "sucks".

@JB
1,500 discs is fine, it's about average for home video enthusiasts (covering the total period from 2001 to 2009), to be fully honest. Testing them all is a bit above average, yes -- assuming your tests were properly done. (On average, home users test discs wrong.) Above beginner, sure. You've tried, you have some input.

AR = "after rebate"

[JohnnyBob]

...@JB
1,500 discs is fine, it's about average for home video enthusiasts (covering the total period from 2001 to 2009), to be fully honest. Testing them all is a bit above average, yes -- assuming your tests were properly done. (On average, home users test discs wrong.)...

I didn't quality scan all of them, started doing so about halfway through. Also didn't get involved with DVD burning til about 3 years ago, used VHS tapes before that. So the 1500 burns have been in the last 2-3 years. I really don't care what category that falls into, except I'm obviously no longer a "beginner".

How can you test discs wrong?? I ran quality tests with CD/DVDSpeed after burning various kinds of media, at different speeds, with different burners (6), using different software, and played them in different standalone DVD players (4-5). As a result I have a pretty good idea of what works best for me, with my equipment. That's all that matters, backing up my DVD movie collection. I have little or no interest in other aspects.

I suppose my only other concern is longevity of the discs, but there's no way to know for sure except wait 10-15 years and see if they'll still play OK. I didn't have good luck with my VHS tapes, which were in pretty bad shape after 10 years. Hopefully DVDs will survive longer. I'm giving them TLC.

[lordsmurf]

How? Wrong drives, wrong speeds, wrong tests (PIF/PIE/PI/PO), dirty discs, unclean environment....

Optical media has been around for decades. The old "there's no way to know" line is all myth, perpetuated in online forums. There is plenty of data out there, which lets us arrive at conclusions that discs will lasts several decades minimum, up to a century under optimum conditions.

[JohnnyBob]

How? Wrong drives, wrong speeds, wrong tests (PIF/PIE/PI/PO), dirty discs, unclean environment....

Optical media has been around for decades. The old "there's no way to know" line is all myth, perpetuated in online forums. There is plenty of data out there, which lets us arrive at conclusions that discs will lasts several decades minimum, up to a century under optimum conditions.

wrong drives? - we use whatever we have available, and perhaps get a new one every year or two
wrong speeds? - we try whatever's available from the firmware, then test the results
wrong tests (PIF/PIE/PI/PO)? - that's the only way to evaluate burn quality precisely (CD/DVDSpeed)
dirty discs? - that's easily avoidable, use cases or envelopes and handle by the edges/centerhub
unclean environment? - houses aren' t scientific clean rooms, and there's no way to stop dandruff

So I don't believe there's anything wrong with how most users probably approach and perform these tests. They do the best they can with what they've got, because there's no other way. So why characterize them as wrong?

However if that's the wrong way, what's the right way, in your opinion?

[Seeker47]

discs will lasts several decades minimum, up to a century under optimum conditions.

Yeah, good luck with that. I'm rather skeptical. I've got a few that were unplayable -- on anything -- after 2 -3 years . . . but they were made on not-very-good media, before I learned about Verbatim and TY, a couple years back. I would bet that the better quality media (well cared for) might go 10 years or more, but I've got videocassettes that are still viable, some 20 years out. If DVD does that well I'll be impressed.

[samijubal]

I've got 8 year old crappy discs that were defective from the start they still play, they have the bad spots they always had but they work the same as they always did. I have no doubt quality discs burned with a decent burner and stored right will easily out live videotape.

[samijubal]

Not much of a deal. I paid a little over $13/100 AR for the last couple of spindles I bought.

I've been using Verbs for a few years since the Valueline TYs got too flaky for me. I've yet to have a problem with a single disc, MIT or MII. That's in standalone recorders and PC burners both.

From what I've heard, anything under $20/100 for single layer Verbs is a good deal, but would welcome knowing a cheaper source. I've never tried them before, but ordered a spindle because I'm uncertain about the future of TY, for various reasons. What's "AR" mean?

Just watch bensbargains.net and every month or two Newegg has them for $13-14 after rebate. Verbatim rebates are the fastest I've ever done, usually less than a month.

[LCSHG]

Well

lordsmurf may very well be correct with the reflectivity issue which governs the ones and zeros
While I don’t feel it’s a problem with the Ridata disks. I will check them as I stated, in the meantime I will go back to using Verbatim.
-------------------------------------------------

Seeker7
Well Yes And NO but you have given me an answer for still using a Zip Drive
Dang these New Fangled Gagets but I still have some VHS tapes that go way,way back and they are in very good condition and play ok
The resolution is not to good but Never Was
---------------------------------------------------------



JohnnyBob

I Have purchased a number of items from NewEgg
THE Deal is really no big deal and makes me wonder..

Your Quote
“Frequent short pauses, skips, and freezes suggests an incompatibility between the disc type and the DVD player. You'll get that most frequently with cheap low-end DVD players. If buying one now, I recommend getting one of at least HDMI capability even if you don't use HDMI. I've tried several current models, and the Magnavox DP170MW8B for about $40 from Walmart is decent, at least it plays all my discs OK. Their cheaper lower-end Magnavox DP100MW8B is a piece of junk, as are most in that lower price range. I tried a GPX model the other day on special sale for $20 and it wouldn't play my 16x TY properly - bad audio and frequent tracking problems. If it's one of those tiny little DVD players priced under $40 US, it probably won't work very well.”
------------------------------------------

WHAT SAY
To agree with another post
YAk, Yak,Yak---

[bbanderic]

1500 discs in 3 years, I'd say that's a lot. However, how many of those have you actually watched...completely. To me, that's the true test. Personally, I use TY (8x DVD+R) for SL discs and Verbatim (MIS) for DL. I always burn at half the rated speed. Have to be honest JohnnyBob, you're one of the very few who recommends maxing out the rated speed of the media, but if it works for you great. IMO, disc scans are a total waste of time.

Also, please tell me why HDMI capability , even if you don't use it, has anything to do with whether a DVD player is a quality unit or not. HDMI capabilty does nothing to prevent skips and pauses during DVD playback, there are plenty of high quality non-HDMI DVD players out there.

[JohnnyBob]

1500 discs in 3 years, I'd say that's a lot. However, how many of those have you actually watched...completely. To me, that's the true test. Personally, I use TY (8x DVD+R) for SL discs and Verbatim (MIS) for DL. I always burn at half the rated speed. Have to be honest JohnnyBob, you're one of the very few who recommends maxing out the rated speed of the media, but if it works for you great. IMO, disc scans are a total waste of time.

Also, please tell me why HDMI capability , even if you don't use it, has anything to do with whether a DVD player is a quality unit or not. HDMI capabilty does nothing to prevent skips and pauses during DVD playback, there are plenty of high quality non-HDMI DVD players out there.

I don't know, I've watched maybe 1200 of of the 1500 completely.

I know of no other way to precisely measure and compare burn quality except quality scans with CD/DVDSpeed. Also it points out the occasional defective disk, which passed the verify test but is likely to fail or have playback problems. That's pretty easy to see when there are tall broad PIF bands. I toss those out and burn another for my backup archives.

As for HDMI, it indicates a model above the lowest tier. Odds are the components and firmware are a little better. I shop at Walmart, Kmart, Sears, Big Lots, Dollar General, Family Dollar, etc, and their non-HDMI models priced below $40 are junk. I've tried several and always end up taking them back. Also I would only buy this kind of item locally so I can take it back easily. I probably take back 50%+ of the electronic items I buy because they don't pass muster.

Where do you see all of those high quality non-HDMI DVD players? If they have a S-Video output connector, I'm interested. I'm a sorta collector of DVD players too.