Testing with a digital converter box on a cable system.

[389poncho]

Mornin'
I was wondering if anyone has tried this. I want to connect one of my Magnavox digital converter boxes to a TV on my Charter expanded basic cable TV system to do some experimenting. Before I hook it up, I just wanted to make sure that this would not cause any damage to the box. I know these are not designed to have 80+ channels coming at them for scanning. Don't want to drive this little box "permanently insane" ya know.
T'care,
Mike

[usually_quiet]

I tested one of my converter boxes to see if it would allow cable to pass through. It does, but only when it is turned off. It won't pass through any cable stations when turned on, although it has analog-pass through. It still works fine.

That being said, if you want to use it as a tuner for cable, don't waste your time. Coupon eleigible converter boxes won't tune any channels from cable. The requirements for coupon eleigibility specifically prohibit analog or digital cable channels from being tuned. I'm sure it was tested before it was approved for the program.

[jagabo]

Cable systems do not output ATSC signals, they use QAM instead. Attaching the cable coax to the Magnavox ATSC tuner won't damage it but you won't be able to tune any digital cable channels (unless the Magnavox ATSC box includes a QAM tuner, which is unlikely).

[389poncho]

Thanks guys, for your input. I'm all for not wasting my time so you have saved me some.
Have a great January 2009.
T'care,
Mike

[SHELONAT]

Hello on another note comcast is cutting more svc to expanded cable customers by going so-called all digital channeling how convien. they are in cutting 30-98-channeling those cust getting those beloved and most watched will soon be req to obtain a set-box to receive those channels..my question is they say those channels are currently broadcast in analog so that being said i am asking anyone will the antenna conversion coupon boxes sold to change back the signal to enable cable-ready tvs to be tuned using their own'tuners and related remotes work as well with the comcast or analog channels 30-98 comcast plans to convert? they want customers to rent a set-top small box for each tv in one's hs at a tune of $5.00 ea and i know no-one who have less than at least 5 sets in hs..a fed-coupon purchased box config to incoming line feed to all sets other than a digital motorola comcast box that is dedicated to a single tv as to not disrupt that feed. installing the dtv to a incoming hs feed that serves all other tv sets thus allowing each tv tuner to continue to change channeling and independant use as the fed-coupon dtv tuner is intended to do..will this work as indicated?????please help if i need to get a dtv set per tv it would be far cheaper than the $5 ea rentals any prof knowledge on this desparete issue would be helpful

[jagabo]

will the antenna conversion coupon boxes sold to change back the signal to enable cable-ready tvs to be tuned using their own'tuners and related remotes work as well with the comcast or analog channels 30-98 comcast plans to convert?

No. The coupon boxes only convert ATSC broadcast digital channels.

they want customers to rent a set-top small box for each tv in one's hs at a tune of $5.00 ea

No surprises there, eh? Cable companies are salivating at the prospect of all those new rental fees.

[389poncho]

It appears to me that the only way to handle this on our own without more monthly costs [kinda] is to have a digital tuner at the end of the train; the TV. Meaning purchasing a digital TV as reasonably priced as possible. I've read various forum posts from people saying they have a DVR or VCR combo with a digital tuner so they will be just fine. They will still be shooting a digital signal into an analog TV so will accomplish nothing. That digital DVR tuner is only a tuner, NOT a converter. Am I correct in my thinking here? Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike

[jagabo]

The only channels you'll get with a digital cable (QAM) tuner are those broadcast without encryption (clear QAM). That will be limited to the same channels you can get over the air with an ATSC tuner (required by the FCC) plus a few others like the weather channel and local access channel. As the cable companies remove more and more analog channels there will be no way around renting a box from the cable company if you want more than a half dozen local broadcast channels.

The FCC is "investigating" this issue but I doubt much will come of it.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081105-fcc-launches-probe-into-possible-cable-p...enanigans.html

[usually_quiet]

I've read various forum posts from people saying they have a DVR or VCR combo with a digital tuner so they will be just fine. They will still be shooting a digital signal into an analog TV so will accomplish nothing. That digital DVR tuner is only a tuner, NOT a converter. Am I correct in my thinking here? Mike

A VCR or DVD recorder with a (QAM) digital tuner will send along an analog signal for the station it is tuned to if any connection but coaxial or HDMI is used. Even coaxial would be OK, if the recording device in question outputs on channel 3 or 4 via coaxial, but these days most only use coaxal as a pass-through for the cable/antenna signal. People who have a TV which only has a coaxial input would need to get an RF modulator, and make the connection that way.

However as jagabo said, the digital cable channels that could be viewed would be limited to the unencrypted ones. Where I live, not even all the local broadcast channel are unecrypted. To receive a couple of the HD locals, subscribers must rent a box from the cable company.

[389poncho]

I guess what really got me started was our provider [Charter] took away our on-screen current program guide. It was on our channel 2 for decades and was crucial & invaluable to our knowing what was accurately coming up for the next two hours. All the publications [newspaper listings, "TV Guide", "Channel Guide"] are very unreliable and inaccurate as they are printed far in advance. Now Charter has moved the program guide barely into the digital tier just beyond our reach. I was hoping a TV with a digital tuner could latch onto it providing it's not encrypted. This all seems at least unethical if not illegal on their part.
T'care
Mike

[gadgetguy]

Why would you expect ethics from a cable company? "Decoder box" rental has never been ethical since you pay the equivalent of buying a new box nearly every year, but they don't come out and replace it unless it breaks (and even then they prefer you bring it in and swap it). Charging extra for multiple TVs has never been ethical since there's no difference in what or how they broadcast. You can purchase your own cable modem, but they don't stop charging for it, they just change the name of the fee to a "service charge". They can charge for these things only because the consumers are willing to pay for them. They offer seemingly rational arguments for why they're necessary and because the customer is ignorant of how the system actually works they just say 'ok" and write another check. If you don't want to pay, then don't. Put up an antenna and subscribe to Netflix. But don't bother whining about the cable company doing whatever it can to make money. That's why they're in business.

[jagabo]

They charge for those things because they have a monopoly.

[gadgetguy]

That's true, but if everyone decided that they don't need Cable unless they stopped charging those fees, they would go away.

[jagabo]

People can't live without TV. You might as well tell them to go without food so food prices will come down.

[gadgetguy]

People can't live without TV.

That's arguable, but a completely separate subject.

You might as well tell them to go without food so food prices will come down.

Living without Cable and living without TV are not the same thing. There are alternatives to cable for your viewing pleasure. I love TV and I watch more than the average consumer (based on reported averages of weekly viewing time), but I haven't had Cable for several months now, and contrary to popular belief, I'm still alive.

[stiltman]

I just called comcast this weekend. I wanted to reduce my bill a LOT.
When I first started with comcast many years ago, if you got the internet, it came default with all anolog signals 2-99. Not any more. They now will put on a line blocker. The lest expensive package is 2-30 analog at something like $50 and its like $52 for their basic digital. They also now offer a 1mb internet package for $29

[usually_quiet]

I don't like what is being done, but I can understand the cableco's reasoning. The competiting services require STBs, and are making money from the rental fees. In addition, the boxes make it more difficult to steal cable, and they provide the opportunity for customers to buy on-demand and PPV content, generating even more revenue.

I do think the cable companies may be shooting themselves in the foot with all these extra fees. Cable isn't a monopoly in many areas like it used to be. In more and more places there are multiple paid TV services available: a cable provider, a few satellite providers, and a telco TV provider.

With the current economic downturn, I suspect that more people are looking for ways to reduce their expenses, and are more motivated to look for cheaper alternatives for watching TV. Cable is often more expensive than the competition, and some people may decide that an another paid TV service would suit them better if they have to rent STBs or DVRs and pay extra to view HD content. Some may even decide they can get by with free broadcast TV and a CECB.

[SmokieStover]

Unencryptic QAM is the proper road to take if a cable company wants to free-up band width for more HD channels and other video services. But a handfull of bigboys control 70% of the cable tv market, and they have the scale to bring significant new dollars to the bottom line thru set-top and DVR rental fees, etc. I think their ultimate goal is all nonlinear programing (Except Broadcast Locals), whereby they have complete control over how you can watch TV, what ads you MUST watch, and at a per hour price to boot.

Our local family owned cable system (West Central Illinois) has started down the proper road. Next to no current demand for HDTV here, so no motivation to cut the number of analog channels. But many of the analog cable channels have steadily degraded in quality over the last 5 years, some examples being: The Sci-Fi Channel, Nick, TV Land, MTV (I know..who cares!), VH-1, Hallmark, AMC. I have called several times and asked why they didn't just drop these channels as defective product. Finally someone told me they are all carried in clear QAM where the issues have been fixed.......you don't need a cable box, just buy a recorder with a QAM tuner!. I did. Problem solved.

[SHELONAT]

STILL no-one has answered this question? will a single qam box set work in-line whole house to enable each tv to use its own digital tuners and related remotes..i do not want to rent multiple comcast units at $5 a peice to enable all my tvs i have at least 6 i want to inline feed the entire lot except the main tv using the std motorola digital comcast bullshit hd crapola hated set...i am not a digital tv fan nor a hd fan i hate both..i love cathrod tube tvs and vhs and cassettes hate any disc-media cd-rom dvd ect..tape baby all the way and
std tv viewing none of that shitola dig/hd crapola...

[jagabo]

STILL no-one has answered this question? will a single qam box set work in-line whole house to enable each tv to use its own digital tuners and related remotes..

Of course not. The cable company's box will not output QAM or ATSC that the TVs could tune. And the box will only tune one channel at a time. (See about remotes below.)

i do not want to rent multiple comcast units at $5 a peice to enable all my tvs i have at least 6 i want to inline feed the entire lot except the main tv using the std motorola digital comcast bullshit hd crapola hated set...

The closest you can come is hook up the RF or analog outputs from the cable box to all the TVs in the house. Then run remote extenders from all the TVs to the central cable box. You'll only be able to watch one channel at a time on all the TVs.

They have you by the balls.

[edDV]

STILL no-one has answered this question? will a single qam box set work in-line whole house to enable each tv to use its own digital tuners and related remotes..i do not want to rent multiple comcast units at $5 a peice to enable all my tvs i have at least 6 i want to inline feed the entire lot except the main tv using the std motorola digital comcast bullshit hd crapola hated set...i am not a digital tv fan nor a hd fan i hate both..i love cathrod tube tvs and vhs and cassettes hate any disc-media cd-rom dvd ect..tape baby all the way and
std tv viewing none of that shitola dig/hd crapola...

One tuner means one digital channel for the whole house to watch? then Yes. You can distribute the Channel 3/4 around the house and everyone can watch the same "30-99" channel. You would need a second coax to each TV and an A/B switch if you wanted the lower analog channels to be separately tunable **.

This situation differs locally mostly due to the level of tech out on your poles. Here are some categories.

1. The cable company has very old tech and is poor and will go out of business if forced to continue analog locals until 2012. These companies can petition the FCC to allow all digital service but must offer a cable box that can tune the locals at no extra fee for current analog basic customers. These basic customers won't be getting MTV et. al. They will need to pay up for encrypted QAM cable.

2. Systems with low cable HDTV demand can continue doing what they did before but "must" free bandwidth to pass ClearQAM PBS (all subchannels) and "must carry" locals in QAM digital be it SD or HD as broadcast. The major networks aren't "must carry" so they may exert pressure for their channels to go ClearQAM. If so more analog cable channels need to go to make space. So expect some reduction in the "30-99"* analogs.

3. Systems with people threatening to go to Dish or DirectTV if HD choice isn't expanded will weigh the analog customer against the HD customer and screw one of them. Guess who they screw? HD customers pay about 50-100% more each month. Each analog "30-99" analog channel eliminated frees space for 2-3 cable HD channels.

4. An extreme of #3 is all analog "30-99" is freed for HD and other services (e.g. telephone, faster internet, more VOD, subscription sports, foreign language channels, more PPV, etc.), then you will need a cable box for anything but the FCC required analog and ClearQAM locals.


*"30-99" isn't descriptive. Upper analog is more likely 30-44 or 30-64 or 30-72 plus 95-99. I won't bore you with the tech.

** Or you could put an ATSC tuner + antenna at each TV for OTA alternatives.

[edDV]

So where is the "expanded analog" customer to go if they don't want to pay a cable box rental?

1. Learn to live with "free" TV.
2. Blockbuster, Red Box, etc. DVD rental.
3. Public Library DVD loans.
4. Shop thrift shop DVD bins.

or pay up
5. SD Dish or DirectTV plans
6. Telco (IPTV or FIOS) in limited areas.
7. Netflix
8. Internet IP services.

[SHELONAT]

how bout a router as in computers a 6port coax digital router anyone know of anyone buliding or producing a unit much like the internet as a digital signal comes in each line is routed as its own entity enabling multiple viewing and channeling?from each digital tuner(tv) makes sence? i've been trying to find one on ebay mount the damn thing to incoming line and route to 6 tvs simplea qam modem 1st? then thru the router as my beloved 6 computers are set up?or no need for a modem..just a single router?

[edDV]

how bout a router as in computers a 6port coax digital router anyone know of anyone buliding or producing a unit much like the internet as a digital signal comes in each line is routed as its own entity enabling multiple viewing and channeling?from each digital tuner(tv) makes sence? i've been trying to find one on ebay mount the damn thing to incoming line and route to 6 tvs simplea qam modem 1st? then thru the router as my beloved 6 computers are set up?or no need for a modem..just a single router?

The MCE HTPC model is suggesting a centralized grouping of cable tuners with a media server so each user node can request a tuner or other network media resource. I guess this will be first come first served.

[jagabo]

The MCE HTPC model is suggesting a centralized grouping of cable tuners with a media server so each user node can request a tuner or other network media resource. I guess this will be first come first served.

And the digital cable tuners will only work with clear QAM channels. Cablecard is pretty much a non-starter.

[usually_quiet]

1. The cable company has very old tech and is poor and will go out of business if forced to continue analog locals until 2012. These companies can petition the FCC to allow all digital service but must offer a cable box that can tune the locals at no extra fee for current analog basic customers. These basic customers won't be getting MTV et. al. They will need to pay up for encrypted QAM cable.

What is your source for this information? I have read some posts in various forums indicating that cable providers (not small-time and not telco) are already converting their systems to all-digital in various places, and are requiring all subscribers to install STBs.

I have also read some of the the FCC's documents on must-carry and analog service and have found nothing in what I have read that supports your statement, especially the part requiring free boxes being provided to anyone. In section 40 of the document at this link http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/register/2008/feb/01/6043A.pdf , the FCC's spokesperson says that cablecos can charge for the boxes if they wish.

There's an interesting discussion about must-carry here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.video.cable-tv/browse_thread/thread/f127429415aa032...39253?lnk=raot

[SmokieStover]

There is absolutely no reason for the ad bloated, expanded basic cable channels to be encrypted, EXCEPT to go back to the old days when a cable box was needed at every TV to tune the "analog cable" channels. That ended with legislation that mandated "Cable Ready" TVs and cable ready VCRs. The major difference between then and now is the size of the cable operators and the media company's, and the power they have bought in Washington. Doesn't help when all their competitors, for technical reasons, must use a box at every TV.

A rented Box at every TV? Not for me.........4 local channels (ABC, NBC FOX and PBS) and DVD rental will do just fine at my house. CBS looks to be a victim of the digital transition where I live, and I might, for a short time, miss the 2 hours of CBS programming that I watch a week (when it's actually on).

And don't forget all the shows and movies that many of us bought and all the recorded stuff too!

[edDV]

1. The cable company has very old tech and is poor and will go out of business if forced to continue analog locals until 2012. These companies can petition the FCC to allow all digital service but must offer a cable box that can tune the locals at no extra fee for current analog basic customers. These basic customers won't be getting MTV et. al. They will need to pay up for encrypted QAM cable.

What is your source for this information? I have read some posts in various forums indicating that cable providers (not small-time and not telco) are already converting their systems to all-digital in various places, and are requiring all subscribers to install STBs.

I have also read some of the the FCC's documents on must-carry and analog service and have found nothing in what I have read that supports your statement, especially the part requiring free boxes being provided to anyone. In section 40 of the document at this link http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/register/2008/feb/01/6043A.pdf , the FCC's spokesperson says that cablecos can charge for the boxes if they wish.

There's an interesting discussion about must-carry here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.video.cable-tv/browse_thread/thread/f127429415aa032...39253?lnk=raot

I think you are confusing analog basic (locals) with extended analog basic (cable channels).
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080905-fcc-exempts-small-cable-operators-from-h...arry-rule.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070912-fcc-to-cable-you-must-support-analog-tvs...ntil-2012.html
http://www.onetrak.com/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=2624

The no extra charge boxes are for reception of local broadcasters only not cable channels. If you want cable channels, you must pay up. At least that was the original FCC intent that cable companies not increase charges for basic analog service because of the 17 Feb 2009 analog shutdown.
http://www.betanews.com/article/FCC_Adopts_Compromise_on_MustCarry_Provisions_for_Cabl..._TV/1190236878

Original must carry QAM simulcast exemption.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-193A1.pdf

Ruling that analog continue for "must carry" until 2012. PBS and cable industry separately agreed to carry prime PBS channel in analog and all digital QAM subchannels. FCC concurred.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-276576A1.pdf

[Zen of Encoding]

So where is the "expanded analog" customer to go if they don't want to pay a cable box rental?

1. Learn to live with "free" TV.
2. Blockbuster, Red Box, etc. DVD rental.
3. Public Library DVD loans.
4. Shop thrift shop DVD bins.

or pay up
5. SD Dish or DirectTV plans
6. Telco (IPTV or FIOS) in limited areas.
7. Netflix
8. Internet IP services.

I've seen the Comcast boxes for sale at the Flea market, not in big numbers, but one here and one there.
I'm sure the newer models will continue to show up after the digital transition. Perhaps it's a waste of money
because each box would need to be associated with a "valid" account on the network to decrypt the 30-99
QAM signals?

[jagabo]

I've seen the Comcast boxes for sale at the Flea market, not in big numbers, but one here and one there. I'm sure the newer models will continue to show up after the digital transition. Perhaps it's a waste of money because each box would need to be associated with a "valid" account on the network to decrypt the 30-99 QAM signals?

That is correct. The digital boxes won't even boot without a valid account -- they download the current firmware from the cable company when powered up. Then they ask for permission every time you change the channel.