Powersupply questions and fan questions

[yoda313]

I am starting to use my Vista pc a lot more for tv recording and for watching tv and dvds. I am concerned about proper ventilation. What are some good tools to measure temperature and what are the benchmarks for warning signs?

Also if I were to consider adding an internal fan what options are there? I don't have a free pci slot so direct venting is not an option. I also don't have a free 5 1/4 bay either.

I think I currently have a 300watt or 350watt powersupply so I'm thinking I should upgrade to at least 400 or 500. What are some good brands and price ranges? I'm anticipating spending maybe 50.00 to 60.00 if I do upgrade, give or take. No immediate plans to do this but i'll start looking.

Also - do you need to do anything software side before swapping the psu? Or is it all straight physical connections? Is it just truly plug and play? I've never changed a power supply so if you have a video link or something I"d appreciate it.

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[tug_hill2]

I am starting to use my Vista pc a lot more for tv recording and for watching tv and dvds. I am concerned about
proper ventilation. What are some good tools to measure temperature and what are the benchmarks for warning signs?

Also if I were to consider adding an internal fan what options are there? I don't have a free pci slot so direct venting is not an option. I also don't have a free 5 1/4 bay either.

I think I currently have a 300watt or 350watt powersupply so I'm thinking I should upgrade to at least 400 or 500. What are some good brands and price ranges? I'm anticipating spending maybe 50.00 to 60.00 if I do upgrade, give or take. No immediate plans to do this but i'll start looking.

Also - do you need to do anything software side before swapping the psu? Or is it all straight physical connections? Is it just truly plug and play? I've never changed a power supply so if you have a video link or something I"d appreciate it.
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Hello Yoda, Yes...! You would benefit from a larger Power Supply. All you do is to take out the old one & put in the new one. Keep track of what gets plugged in. I'd go for an Antec Earthwatts 500p.s. It has all the power that you would need. Runs cool too..!

Adding a fan would also help...! If you don't have room inside the computer - why not take the side case off, and place the fans to send the cool air into the case.

You can save some money by NOT using "Computer" fans. Go to a Wallmart and get 1 or 2 of their 12" box fans. It would be all the cooling that you would need..!

Tug_Hill2

[redwudz]

Your PS size seems largely determined by your video card these days. I built a lot of computers with 300W PS's, but most new ones I use a 450 - 500W in case I ever need to install a upscale video card. I probably mentioned I have a couple of servers with ten HDDs and six or so fans in each that ran fine on a 400W PS, though 500W may be a better choice. If you had a dual SLI card, you could easily add a couple of hundred watts extra.

I gave up on Antec after two PS failures in a row, mostly attributed to very poor quality control. I'm using Thermaltake now, but there are other very good PS's on the market. PS's are 'plug n play'. If you have a older MB, it may use a 20 pin ATX connector and may not have a 4 pin CPU connector, but most PS's have 20 pin ATX adapters. Some video cards need a special PS connector, but those should come with the card. For a few extra dollars, you can get a modular PS with plug in cables. Very nice for cleaning up the interior of the case.

For internal fans, unless they have a external exhaust or intake, they are just going to move air around in the case. That may help a little, but it's better to get cool air in and hot air out. There are several programs that check case and CPU temps, but not all of them are accurate. I still use my finger at the base of a CPU cooler to see if it's running at a reasonable temperature. If you burn your finger, you need more cooling.

The BIOS temp readings are generally accurate, though when the OS is running or some motherboard fan control programs are running, you may have cooler temps than when in BIOS. Northbridge chips and video cards seem tp be the main producers of heat besides the CPU. Newer SATA hard drives run cooler than PATA drives most times. But good case airflow should keeps the HDDs cool enough.

I also have a infrared thermometer for more accurate readings.

Another simple way to check if your present PS is stressed is to monitor the heat it puts out. If it's hot like a hair blow dryer, then you may need a upgrade. A PS should run fairly cool to warm, not hot.

[yoda313]

So would you say 500 watts is a good range to shoot for? What should I expect to pay for one in that range?

I think the power supply is my main obstacle to upgrading my video card from a nvidia 8400 to something newer. I do have a pcie slot but a lot of the newer cards are power hungry as redwudz mentioned.

[rallynavvie]

Try CoreTemp to see if it will read your system temps. It works with a lot of the chipsets out there. Sometimes messing with the stock cooling of your case makes things worse. Just adding fans doesn't always work. Sometimes it's as simple as optimizing airflow but using proper cable management and keeping filters clean and free of obstructions.

Before you even consider upgrading your PSU what motherboard do you have? I thought I recall your new box being an OEM.

[johns0]

Best to get a good quality psu at least 600w for a better video card.Expect to pay $100+.Being a dual core cpu with ddr2 ram means it takes a 24 pin psu.

[TimA-C]

If your system is working OK with a 300W PSU then unless you're planning on replacing your graphics card with 2 top-of-the-range graphics cards in SLi mode, adding another 3 or 4 hard drives, plugging in loads of memory cards/sticks into all your usb sockets at the same time, I'd go with a reasonable 450W to 550W. (Obviously, if you can find a good 600W+ at a good price . . . ) The power supply is one of the most important components in a PC - If you have a cheap and nasty one then you'll almost certainly end up with an unreliable PC. Having said that, you can get reasonable ones at reasonable prices if you shop around and do your research (which is what you're doing ).

Here in the UK I've been using Casecom 500W PSUs for the last 18 months or so in standard office/general family single/dual-core PCs with no problems. (Well, I did have one go up in a bright blue flash - not sure if it was a short inside the PSU or a short in the case. Either way it scared the brown stuff out of me! Fortunately it didn't take anything else with it and there was no problem getting it replaced under warranty.) The ones I use have a 120mm quiet fan (not completely silent, but not at all bad), 24-pin motherboard connectors that can still be used in older 20-pin sockets, voltages are pretty stable and well within plus/minus 5% of what they should be, and all for around £20 (which I think is roughly $40). As with all PSUs with a single 120mm fan in their base, you will benefit from having a seperate exhaust fan in the case if you can, and you may need some additional molex/SATA connectors if you've got more than one hard drive. I've got two of these PSUs in my two secondary machines and a Hiper type-R 680 (I think) in my main PC.

Basically, you won't go wrong spending more and getting a good power supply. The better ones have all sorts of benefits over the cheaper ones (e.g. short-circuit protection, power smoothing, temp controlled fans, etc...) but there are a lot of middle-of-the-range power supplies out there that will do a pretty good job at a much lower price. If Power supplies were cars and money was no option then I'd love to have a £70,000 Aston Martin DB9, however, I'd happily settle for a £25,000 Mazda RX8. As it is, I have a fairly decent 2nd hand Mazda 323 that does the job pretty well.

As for case fans, I tend to only use Hiper 80mm or 120mm fans now, usually with some kind of speed adjuster. They're a lot cheaper and usually quieter than a lot of the so-called quiet fans so beloved of the over-clocking community. (and yes, I have tried a lot of different fans over the last couple of years.)

Hope this was of some help.

[redwudz]

NewEgg has this for $34US after rebate: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052
Or if you want modular cabling and SLI support: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153059 I use this one in my HTPC, but it's $84US,
Or a bit more power with SLI options and $65US after rebate: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153042 They have a 5YR warranty. You will usually end up with extra cabling you need to stuff somewhere.

[TBoneit]

To be honest if it is working don't fix it. A power supply that is overloaded will shut down to protect itself from damage.

I use two methods to determine if the computer next to my TV set is running hot.
method 1 is a digital probe, IOWs I put my finger on the case and in the airflow out the back of the case and see if it is hot.
Method 2 is the ear test. If I hear the CPU fan at all when I'm encoding then I know it is time to clean out the dust.

Under normal use including encoding video the only time I hear the computer at all is when it runs the CPU fan at full speed as part of the post process before it even displays video.

I do not remember if your video card takes an extra power connector? If it does then the maker shold have a minimum power supply rating in teh manual or on the box sometimes. In which case you may want to upgrade if that makes you feel comfortable. The fact that it works OK with the 300 watt PS tells me it isn't a immediate if at all neccessity. Others will disagree. They are the same ones that I see looking for 700watt + supplys and when you ask they are running a one of the new lower power usage CPUs with 1 hard drive, 1 burner and sometime a seperate video card and sometime Built-in video. One person spent what was to me a incredible amount of money for a 900 watt PS.

As far as the ones where you can plug the different power cables into the power supply? To me that just adds a extra failure point. The same thing with striped drives. You just doubled your chances of a drive failure for that striped drive.

[TBoneit]

If you are thing of upgrading to a power hungry card wait until you have checked the reccomended size for that card before buying the power supply.

[Seeker47]

Your PS size seems largely determined by your video card these days. I built a lot of computers with 300W PS's, but most new ones I use a 450 - 500W in case I ever need to install a upscale video card. I probably mentioned I have a couple of servers with ten HDDs and six or so fans in each that ran fine on a 400W PS, though 500W may be a better choice. If you had a dual SLI card, you could easily add a couple of hundred watts extra.
. . .
I also have a infrared thermometer for more accurate readings.

Another simple way to check if your present PS is stressed is to monitor the heat it puts out. If it's hot like a hair blow dryer, then you may need a upgrade. A PS should run fairly cool to warm, not hot.

In a thread here on video cards, I asked if there was any way to know in advance what the power draw and heat output of various cards might be, before committing to them. The brief advice I got was that these specs are available online. Well, I'm here to tell you that I've reviewed the available online specs for over 25 video cards (both from mfr.s sites, or from resellers like NewEgg) , and I've yet to see even one of them say "this card draws 82 watts", or anything along those lines. In a few instances, you get lucky and come across a comparative review, where they measure competing video cards' heat output, at idle and under stress, with bar graphs -- but that's about it. The one good piece of info I got in that thread was to take note of video cards that require separate power connection from the PSU, vs. those that get all they need just from the card slot. (The latter should have much less in the way of heat or power.) Based on that, the fact this is for a small SFF box with not-so-good cooling, and that I'm very far from being a gamer, I've decided to go with an older and much more modest one-slot video card solution. Now I just have to decide if a fanless one is possible -- for the benefit of its lower noise -- or if I need to go with one that has a fan built-in.

I know where to get readouts on CPU temps under different loads, but I'd love to find out about any ways to do the same for the GPU.

[yoda313]

Thanks everyone I'll keep the advice in mind.

[yoda313]

What about something like this?

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/522265/BP500U-ATX12V-Power-Supply/


The Antec Basiq is a solid power supply built to satisfy the demands on the entry-level power user or the budget-minded system builder. This ATX12V power supply delivers power simply, efficiently and reliably.

ATX12V version 2.01 compliant.
Dual +12V outputs provide maximum stable power for the CPU independently of the other peripherals.
Built-in industrial-grade protection circuitry prevents damage from short circuits, power overloads and over-voltage conditions.
The 500-watt model offers a universal input (which works on any AC power grid in the world) and active power-factor correction (PFC).
Backed by the manufacturer's 1-year limited warranty on parts and labor.


I checked on another website and it has a pci-e power connector. I believe it only has one but I only have one pci-e slot so that would not be an issue (since I wouldn't be able to do sli without a second slot).

I would think 500 watts would be a nice "average" number for a upgrade. Don't most graphics card simply require 400 watts these days? I don't know when I'd upgrade my nvidia 8400 but I'd like the opportunity and for that I'd need more power.

[TBoneit]

Snipped

I know where to get readouts on CPU temps under different loads, but I'd love to find out about any ways to do the same for the GPU.

There devices that mount in a drive bay that have probes for the CPU, and hard drive and system. It would be easy enough to connect one of those to the GPU heat sink instead.

CPU hooks up to the CPU heat sink.
System usually hooks up to the Motherboard chipset.
HDD usually attaches to the drive.

I would use the hdd probe for the GPU since if your chipset has a fan you want to keep a eye on the temps for it and the CPU to watch for ny fan failure or heat sink clogging.

[redwudz]

I've attached the heat probes from one of those 3.5/5.25 bay mounted temperature readouts directly to the heat sinks by using a little dab of thermal compound and some silicone glue to hold it all in place. The attachment tape they often include seems to fail in a short time.

I also have a infrared thermometer that I can check temperatures with similar to this: http://www.axiontech.com/prdt.php?item=79171

yoda313, that PS should work fine.

[yoda313]

yoda313, that PS should work fine.

Thanks. I'll probably try to pick it up next week. I'm nearly ready to leave my media center pc (vista premium) on most of the time for tv recording. I have everything I need and now a stable internet connection. This new power supply will probably help keep it running cool while on for extended periods of time.

[Seeker47]

I've attached the heat probes from one of those 3.5/5.25 bay mounted temperature readouts directly to the heat sinks by using a little dab of thermal compound and some silicone glue to hold it all in place. The attachment tape they often include seems to fail in a short time.

I also have a infrared thermometer that I can check temperatures with similar to this: http://www.axiontech.com/prdt.php?item=79171

COOL ! (Pun only half-intended.) Thanx for that tip.
So, this thing works sort of like a laser-pointer: no permanent connection required ?

While we're at it, I'd like to get a quick primer on thermal compounds. They seem to have varied ratings, according to use, along with warnings not to use one that isn't up to the job. I had a 5 yr. old unopened tube of Arctic Silver 3, which I can toss, if it might have expired. Went out and got a tube of Arctic Silver 5. Isn't that one supposed to be good for any chip + heatsink / fan situation, up to and including CPUs or GPUs ?

[Seeker47]

To be honest if it is working don't fix it. A power supply that is overloaded will shut down to protect itself from damage.

What are the chances that a basically new, barely used PSU just up and croaks on you ?
I bought a computer on eBay about 6 months ago: "custom whitebox", assembled and tested, but otherwise previously unused. There was nothing on the HDD yet. It has its own graphics chip on the mobo, Ram, the cpu, a few small fans, and the HDD. So, to date, not much load for the 250w. PSU. (Sounds low, but this is a Shuttle.) I tested that everything was working after I got it, then set it aside. Other projects of greater importance intervened. Later, I realized that I had badly screwed up in my pre-purchase research (which is very rare for me), because this model has no Reset switch -- just an On / Off -- and that is one of my absolute dealbreakers. Not the only one in this case, as it happens. So, I'm gonna dispose of this thing anyway. Fortunately, I did not spend all that much on it.

Long story short, I hooked it up yesterday, and it's now dead. Not even the fans spin up. When I hit the power switch, there is a brief flash of green LED light from my keyboard, and from the ethernet receptacle at the back. But that's IT. This computer just sat untouched in a corner for 3 or 4 months, with nothing different from when it was last checked and working. If it's not the PSU, then I just have no idea.

[redwudz]

Parts fail. It might have died the second you turned it on. Outside of substituting a different PS, no simple way to fully check a PS, IMO. They have testers, but if they don't properly load a PS for the test, you don't learn much. If find a substitute more reliable.

Not that familiar with Shuttle, but I'm wondering if it has a reset terminal on the MB? Of course without a front panel switch, sort of useless.

I've used a infrared thermometer for several years. Very handy device. You can check temps of about anything. I used to check brake temps on trucks and conveyor belt bearing temps from ten to fifteen feet away. The better ones have a laser diode so you can see where it's pointing. They have a fairly narrow sensing area. There's usually a diagram included to show you the area.

I just use a inexpensive one for home use. You can check Northbridge/Southbridge temps, HDD temps, GPU temps, PS exhaust temps or CPU temps. It does only read surface temps, but if your heatsinks are working properly, that is usually close enough to the chip temps. Also works well around the home or with automotive work. It does work better with dark or non-reflective surfaces, but still works with either.

Probably best to toss out old thermal compound. I've seen it separate in the tube before. I usually get rid of the first little bit that comes out of the nozzle. Arctic Silver 5 is still very popular. There may be slight problems with it as it is conductive and you don't want to get it on any exposed surface mount devices or on sockets or pins. But you shouldn't be smearing that much on. It also may have a tendency to harden and become less effective exposed to high heat and time. I've had a few CPU heat sinks 'glued' to the CPU. As long as you pull the sink straight off, usually no damage. Then use a plastic card to carefully separate the HS from the CPU. Very intense operation.

If your HS has been attached for a long period of time and exposed to high temps, it's often a good idea to 'renew' the compound as it can harden and become less effective. I use 99% isopropyl or denatured alcohol and some Q-tips to clean off the old compound from the CPU and HS. There are also some cleaners available, but never tried them. Check the contact pattern of the HS and CPU also. You can sometimes level up the HS surface with some ~1000 grit sandpaper on a piece of glass and get a better thermal transfer. I use about a rice grain amount of compound and spread it with a thin plastic card. Others just let it squeeze out. To each his own.

The newer ceramic based compounds are non-conductive and may be a bit safer. And they have less a tendency to harden. But they are a tiny bit less thermally conductive than the silver based compounds in some of the reviews I have seen. But I doubt anyone would notice a performance difference.

Sorry, didn't mean to pen a tutorial.

[Seeker47]

Parts fail. It might have died the second you turned it on. Outside of substituting a different PS, no simple way to fully check a PS, IMO.
. . .
Sorry, didn't mean to pen a tutorial.

No, this amount of detail is welcome.

Curiously enough, the cpu (a single core 2.8 P4) on a prior Shuttle model that gave me 4 good years before at least one critical component on the mobo seems to have failed, did not have the "benefit" of any thermal compound at all. Not even a dedicated fan. It just made use of the integrated ICE that has been a mainstay of the Shuttle design for a long time. But I think that cpu was pretty cool-running. Not like a lot of the dual-core, tri-core, or quad-core CPUs in use today.

[redwudz]

Yes, I've ran into some HP computers that used a early Celeron CPU that had a passive heat sink that was cooled by the air from the power supply. Apparently never ran too warm. Some earlier CPUs didn't use any thermal compound.

But with the emergence of CPUs like the Intel Prescott, efficient CPU cooling became more important. Hopefully with 45nm CPUs on the market, cooler running/lower power CPUs may be more common. Now if they can just get the Northbridge and GPUs to run cooler....

[ahhaa]

Yoda- you have some 'design tradeoffs' going here.
&... I'm guessing you don't pay the electric bill at your place...

Doubling the power consumption on a machine that is running hard for long hours means you need to consider more factors:

Heat buildup can cause hotspots where flat cables, extra drives, etc block circulation inside minimal sized cases.

Fans are tiny vacuum cleaners that suck dust, pet hair, tobacco (or other) smoke into an insulating coating on your components.

Blocking the air circulation around a case is a common problem. This can be sitting it on fabric, embedding it in piles of accessory stuff, and my personal favorite- sticking a column of heatmaking components inside a closed glass box.

Don't expect parts that are normally used intermittently, like hard drives, to last as long when run continuously recording TV. Recording one movie will put a week's typical-user's use on any drive.

[Seeker47]

Don't expect parts that are normally used intermittently, like hard drives, to last as long when run continuously recording TV. Recording one movie will put a week's typical-user's use on any drive.

Please don't mention that to my DVDRs, which have given great -- and heavy -- service for quite some time, and I hope will keep doing so for much longer. Then again, it may be that the mfr.s of the better models took into account some design points that are not utilized when one build's a home-brew computer HTPC ?

[TBoneit]

Well they usually use a special drive designed for AV work. My DVRs keep the drives running 24 hours a day. The only one that has given trouble so far, Knock wood, is the one I upgraded using desktop drives and they still run for years. The best luck was using a laptop drive. It ran cooler, quieter and used less power. These all contributed to a cooler running DVR.

If I was building a SFF computer I'd look into using a laptop drive for the cooler running and less load on the power supply.

[yoda313]

Well I'm holding off on my purchase for now. I have had the pc on for most of the week. I have just checked the "feel" of the fan right now and it feels pefectly cool.

Mind you I haven't been doing any video encoding while it is recording so that may change the result. Granted this is a "nonscientific" test but it is not running hot in this mode.

I think I will hold off on the upgrade until I decide to get a new video card. Then I will have to get a new ps for the beefier video cards.

Thanks everyone. Hopefully this thread will prove useful to others.

[Seeker47]

If I was building a SFF computer I'd look into using a laptop drive for the cooler running and less load on the power supply.

Interesting idea. Wouldn't you need a special adapter & cabling of some kind . . . to put one into a regular PC, SFF HTPC, or a DVDR ?

[TBoneit]

If I was building a SFF computer I'd look into using a laptop drive for the cooler running and less load on the power supply.

Interesting idea. Wouldn't you need a special adapter & cabling of some kind . . . to put one into a regular PC, SFF HTPC, or a DVDR ?

There are kits that for IDE laptop drives that have a 2.5" to 3.5" rails for mounting the drive in a 3.5" drive bay. The adapter for 2.5" ide to 3.5" IDE would be needed.

However only the physical mounting kit is needed for the SATA laptop drives as otherwise the connectors for data and power are the same as desktop drives. Since all modern computers are going SATA drives......

When I put one in a DVR I used the mounting kit and the IDE adapter. The DVR ran cooler. It was also quieter as I replaced a noisy maxtor drive.

I take out laptop SATA and hook hem up to a desktop here at work all the time for initial Virus cleaning or data backup using Desktop cables.

Cheers

[Seeker47]

If I was building a SFF computer I'd look into using a laptop drive for the cooler running and less load on the power supply.

There are kits that for IDE laptop drives that have a 2.5" to 3.5" rails for mounting the drive in a 3.5" drive bay. The adapter for 2.5" ide to 3.5" IDE would be needed.

However only the physical mounting kit is needed for the SATA laptop drives as otherwise the connectors for data and power are the same as desktop drives. Since all modern computers are going SATA drives......

Maybe I should not be drawing any conclusions from the laptop drives that are being advertised by Frys and others, but this very casual survey doesn't seem to be turning up any that are 7200 speed. I've heard of the occasional laptop that has them, so they must be available. (I wouldn't want to go with anything slower.) So, what are some really good 7200 speed laptop HDDs . . . with the emphasis on longer-term reliability ?

[TBoneit]

OK, Here's a 10,000 rpm from Western Digital

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=459&language=en

"IcePack™ mounting frame - The 2.5-inch WD VelociRaptor is enclosed in a 3.5-inch enterprise-class mounting frame with a built-in heat sink that keeps this powerful little drive extra cool when installed in high-performance desktop chassis. (This drive is not backplane compatible.)"

This one isn't exactly a laptop drive but sounds like performance and cool running.

[Seeker47]

OK, Here's a 10,000 rpm from Western Digital

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=459&language=en

"IcePack™ mounting frame - The 2.5-inch WD VelociRaptor is enclosed in a 3.5-inch enterprise-class mounting frame with a built-in heat sink that keeps this powerful little drive extra cool when installed in high-performance desktop chassis. (This drive is not backplane compatible.)"

This one isn't exactly a laptop drive but sounds like performance and cool running.

Yes, but in a Laptop drive . . . ? (Which was your previous idea.)

I used 10K drives (SCSI, and A/V rated) for a few years, and really liked the performance, but that was in a full tower with good soundproofing inside the case. 7200 is probably plenty good, in a true laptop form factor.