Pioneer HDD/DVD Recorders, no more?

[Gypsy898]

Has Pioneer stopped making HDD/DVD Recorders for the American and Canadian market? I wanted to see what the newest models were, and the newest one I noticed on Amazon was the 650, and I think that was from 2006!
Has Pioneer gotten out of the game?

[victoriabears]

I was looking at the pioneer Canada site and was surpised that they still list them:-

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Products/Home+Entertainment/Blu-ray+Disc+&+DVD/...rs+&+Recorders

Have alook at the latest Panasonic models, their vcr>dvd combos are the best I've used.

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/618131/index.html?trackInfo=true

the UK ones will work in either pal or ntsc on the inputs or playback.

Pioneer are listed here also:-

http://www.samstores.com/Store.asp?intPageSizea=25&sort=5&PageNo=2&CtgID=374

[Seeker47]

Has Pioneer stopped making HDD/DVD Recorders for the American and Canadian market? I wanted to see what the newest models were, and the newest one I noticed on Amazon was the 650, and I think that was from 2006!
Has Pioneer gotten out of the game?

Don't know the answer to that, but there are quite a few Canadian users on AVSforum, in long-running threads like this one

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683581&pp=30&highlight=Pioneer++640

I haven't really been keeping up on this, but my impression is that the 2 or 3 "newer" Pioneer models you could still purchase in Canada may be in the process of closeout. If you want one -- and particularly at a decent price -- best to move on this pretty soon.

[Gypsy898]

What happened? Why didn't it go anywhere? Was it the DVR that digital cable and satellite providers and TiVo that made the HDD/DVD Recorder not that lucrative? Do most people not like to burn movies that they record? Is it just Pioneer that has left the market or are other brands too?

[Gypsy898]

What happened? Why didn't it go anywhere? Was it the DVR that digital cable and satellite providers with TiVo that made the HDD/DVD Recorder not that lucrative? Do most people not like to burn movies that they record? Is it just Pioneer that has left the market or are other major brands too?

These things are still to expensive in Trinidad, so the people here are either using VCR's (the vast majority) or plain dvd recorders. The really cheap ones. But I thought in America/Canada it would totally blow up, when I got my Pioneer 520 back in '05. but I don't know any of my peeps in America that have one...

[jman98]

Lots of reasons why HDD/DVD recorders are gone in North America.

Popularity of Tivo and other DVR devices for people who just want to watch shows later and don't want to keep them.

Lack of interest in DVD recorders in general in North America. You may not know this, but most manufacturers have abandoned the market, even the ones that only made DVD recorders with no HDD.

Lack of interest in HDD editing. To be blunt, many people who are interested in this sort of thing prefer to record and edit on PCs. I am one of them. All the people I know who own DVD recorders, and there aren't many of them, have no interest at all in editing and own recorders without HDDs.

[orsetto]

Pioneer is rather stupidly playing the "lets be mysterious and vague" game regarding what their new model lineup for Canada will be, if there is to be one at all. If they ARE going to sell new models, they're really in no position to stall and should send a press release out immediately. They are losing money in buckets and should be drumming up interest instead of this smoke and mirrors crap.

They totally left the USA market in 2006 and don't seem likely to return, but as long as they continue in Canada it is not all that difficult for an interested American to get their hands on a Pioneer DVR. The immediate problem is they have withdrawn the current 450-550-650 Canadian DVD/HDD models but have not announced replacements. Normally this would not be a big deal, the same thing happened when they dropped the 540-543-640 models in early 2007. But this time, they are REALLY up a creek financially and are explicitly blaming it on low DVD recorder sales and losses from plasma displays. Also, they have made a couple of cryptic trade press announcements implying that any new DVD recorders and plasma TVs for 2008 would be co-produced with Panasonic. Which means Canada can pretty much expect the Panasonic EZ models with a Pioneer nameplate on them and probably no hard drive. Panasonic is not a company known to "gracefully" enter a co-production deal and actually cooperate with a rival firm (as Sony successfully did with Pioneer on their 2006 and 2007 models). Panasonic will most likely form a strict OEM deal with Pioneer, and we will mourn the passing of "real" Pioneer DVD/HDD recorders.

I hope this is not true. The current models are the best Pioneer has offered to date, and among the best-designed DVD/HDD units, period. The co-produced Sony/Pio burner in these recorders is hands down the best and most durable ever built into a DVR. And the editing software for recordings on the HDD is bulletproof: a Pioneer never trips over itself or locks up during editing. I've been using Pioneers since 2004 and would hate to switch brands at this point (I'm about as interested in moving to Panasonic as Panasonic owners were in moving to Phillips). So cross your fingers everyone.

Pioneer left the US entirely to avoid the expense of integrating the mandated ATSC tuners (they stayed in Canada because Canada is not going ATSC for a couple more years yet). Also, they got tired of competing with TiVO-equipped cable box rentals, which have utterly vaporized mass market USA interest in DVD recorders (the Canadian and worldwide markets have much much lower cable penetration). All the other brand names still selling DVD recorders in the USA dropped the HDD to add the ATSC tuner, and recorders are basically pitched in the USA now as "step-up" DVD players, with the record feature relegated to the status of a seldom-used bonus. This has nothing to do with people editing or recording video on their PCs, that is a tiny tiny market of hardcore gearheads: your average video hobbyist prefers the standalone DVD/HDD recorders, but there aren't enough of these folks in the US to sustain a market, so the machines disappeared. 90% of consumer recorder use is for timeshifting: the automated cable box does that seamlessly and effortlessly, and it buried the DVD recorder. R.I.P.

[Gypsy898]

WOW! But when you explain the whole situation I guess I understand it. if you're getting a DVR with your cable/satellite provider, then I guess having an additional one isn't necessary. I am very glad I got mine when I did. I have had DirecTV since '05 and the DirecTV here in Trinidad, at the time, did not have a DVR in their receiver. In the summer of '07 DirecTV Plus came to the region and the new receivers have the DVR in them.... I haven't upgraded yet because the monthly subscription is still way too high, but when it comes down to a more affordable price, I'll make the switch.

I did read online that Sony had released 8 new HDD/DVD recorders last month, but they are intended for the European market. So I guess although the popularity dwindled in North America, they're doing well in Europe? What about Asia?

[victoriabears]

As a Brit, one thing that is very clear from Living in Canada for 8 years, is that archiving stuff from TV broadcasts in one BIG pain in the neck due to the amount of commercials.

In the UK and I guess Europe the amount of commercials is way less and there are many commercial free channels, so PVR's are less popular than disc based recorders like dvd recorders.

The UK was once said to have the highest take up of VCR's in the world, but then we have the BBC (He said with his nose in the air).

Sales of VHS then DVD's have always been higher in the USA due to this reason I am thinking.

[tac7]

Has Pioneer stopped making HDD/DVD Recorders for the American and Canadian market?

At Futureshop (Canada), the 2008 HDD Pioneer 560 and 660 models are at the warehouse, scheduled to arrive at the branches within a week or so. Don't know any specs at this time, or if they will be "true" Pioneer units, or some sort of Panasonic / Sony / [enter your favorite brand] hybrids...

[JeffM]

Lots of reasons why HDD/DVD recorders are gone in North America.

Popularity of Tivo and other DVR devices for people who just want to watch shows later and don't want to keep them.

Lack of interest in DVD recorders in general in North America. You may not know this, but most manufacturers have abandoned the market, even the ones that only made DVD recorders with no HDD.

Lack of interest in HDD editing. To be blunt, many people who are interested in this sort of thing prefer to record and edit on PCs. I am one of them. All the people I know who own DVD recorders, and there aren't many of them, have no interest at all in editing and own recorders without HDDs.

Well, I live in the US and everything you mentioned is totally opposite for me.

I do like HDDs in DVD recorders and I do like HDD editing. The more the video is edited before it's transferred to the PC, the more space I have on my hard drive! I don't have a massive computer HDD for editing a lot of videos.

[Seeker47]

Lots of reasons why HDD/DVD recorders are gone in North America.

Popularity of Tivo and other DVR devices for people who just want to watch shows later and don't want to keep them.

Lack of interest in DVD recorders in general in North America. You may not know this, but most manufacturers have abandoned the market, even the ones that only made DVD recorders with no HDD.

Lack of interest in HDD editing. To be blunt, many people who are interested in this sort of thing prefer to record and edit on PCs. I am one of them. All the people I know who own DVD recorders, and there aren't many of them, have no interest at all in editing and own recorders without HDDs.

Well, I live in the US and everything you mentioned is totally opposite for me.

I do like HDDs in DVD recorders and I do like HDD editing. The more the video is edited before it's transferred to the PC, the more space I have on my hard drive! I don't have a massive computer HDD for editing a lot of videos.

Yeah, I'm also quite baffled that the market segment here was small enough that it could just evaporate, and that so few people seem to have any interest in archiving (or being able to share) content.

Besides those Canadian models, which could be purchased various ways without traveling to Canada, don't forget that the 640 (a very good unit) turns up regularly on the used market. Like the one in the auction link below, which was at $222. at the time of posting this message. (It will probably close higher, but not all that much higher.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-DVR-640H-160-GB-DVD-Recorder-HDD-Recorder_W0QQitemZ1702181...QQcmdZViewItem

Shortly after Pioneer stopped selling the 640 in the U.S., some Ebay auctions were spiking at up to $700., but these days I think you can find them in very good condition in the $200. - $300. range, maybe less from a pawn shop or garage sale. If many of the original buyers found them way more complicated than a toaster, or decided they just did not care to be bothered, probably a lot of these were very lightly used. So, there are still options other than that Philips model.

But, if you don't want to buy used or buy a Canadian model with no U.S. warranty, get the Philips while it is still around, and maybe they won't abandon this market too.

[JeffM]

Yeah, I'm also quite baffled that the market segment here was small enough that it could just evaporate, and that so few people seem to have any interest in archiving (or being able to share) content..

I don't know where jman98 gets his information, but I do use the DVD recorder editing tools for "raw" edits
to get rid of all the crap like commercials. I only then transfer it to the PC for "fine" edits, when the
video size is cut down. I find DVD Recorder editing tools extremely useful.

[Seeker47]

Does anyone know of a web page somewhere that lists all of the Pioneer DVDR models -- at least by year of release, but perhaps also with some other info ? This would hopefully include both the N. American and the foreign models. For example, there was apparently some model that had Tivo built-in, but I have no idea if this was an early or late model, a Canadian model (do they use Tivo in Canada ?), or what.

[oldfart13]

New models out at Futureshop Canada, Pioneer 560 and 660. So new it isn't on the Pioneer website. I like the idea of being able to transfer content from the computer directly to the HDD. I'll see if I can dig out more info on the units.

[Seeker47]

New models out at Futureshop Canada, Pioneer 560 and 660. So new it isn't on the Pioneer website. I like the idea of being able to transfer content from the computer directly to the HDD. I'll see if I can dig out more info on the units.

We need to know if this new crop will just be Panny's in disguise, or Funai's, or something like that. If so, the feature list and the vaunted Pioneer "name" on it may not mean much.

[oldfart13]

Doesn't appear to be Funai. Who was making the 650s for Pioneer? I'd assume the same factory then.

[Seeker47]

Doesn't appear to be Funai. Who was making the 650s for Pioneer? I'd assume the same factory then.

Well, I'd love to see some detailed inside-the-case photos . . . .
In the meantime, we can only await some owner reports to come in -- hopefully from some folks with a basis for comparison.

[orsetto]

Based on the appearance of the Europe/Asia versions of the new Pioneer 560 and 660, and Pioneers model history in North America, it *appears* that the 560/660 are the same units (more-or-less) as last years 550/650, which were themselves based on the 640. All of these are co-produced by Pioneer/Sony, the Pioneers have Pioneer-specific encoders and other circuits embedded into a Sony-supplied burner. These 640-and-later units have so far proved reliable and of good quality. The Canada models will have analog tuners instead of the international "digital" tuners, and may drop some other features of the Europe/Asia models, as has been typical Pioneer protocol in the past for North American markets. But the basic chassis seems to be carried over from the 2006 and 2007 models: very good news indeed for Pio fans.

An inside pic would confirm instantly whether the 560/660 use the same internals as the 640/550/650: the distinctive burner design is a dead giveaway. Someone in Canada, please buy one soon and post here! Or perhaps if Hakan of Pioneerfaq is following this thread, he has seen a 560 in Europe and can comment?