Why are there no "crap" DVDwriters on Videohelp

[oldandinthe way]

The standard response to DVD writing problems on this site appears to be "crap" media.

On occaision someone will someone will disparage a brand of drive, but most often the approach is to do whatever it takes to make a drive work, even if it is brand new, clearly inadequate and returnable.

Members often recommend drives which are by my standards inferior, and and be seconded or thirded by other members.

Perhaps there is no common understanding of what a quality DVD writer should be.

What are the criteria for an ideal DVDwriter - some proposals

1. Will burn any DVD media from "crap" media to TY

2. Will rip at lightning speed.

3. Will rip scratched, fogged or otherwise damaged media.

4. Has firmware uppdates the instant a new media ships.

5. Has scanning capability

What else should it be?

Does any drive meet these criteria?

When someone has a problem because they have a drive which is clearly inferior or is technically obsolete, is it okay to tell them or is that an attack on their manhood.

[buttzilla]

Most of the time i think its the media but i bought a sony dvd/cd writer that could not see cd'a of any type. It read dvd's fine. It could not even see my xp install disk. So there is crappy drives out there, but most of the time its people trying to save a buck and using cheap media.

[oldandinthe way]

My drives sucessfully burn any media I have tried. Even so-called crap.

Does it raise questions?

[buttzilla]

My plextors burn the cheap stuff fine. Out of the thosands I have burned I have only maybe had three failed writes. But I have seen playback problems in stand alone dvd players with cheap media that i don't see if i use Taiyo Yuden or other quality media.

[oldandinthe way]

Is that the media's fault or the standalone player?

I only see problems with old SONYs

[redwudz]

Burning problems seem to most often be caused by poor quality media. I'm sure there are more than a few poor quality DVD burners out there also. But it's easier for most people to change out the media than to change out the writer. If the unit can't burn quality TY or Verbatim disc's properly, I would advise them to toss it.

I've used the cheapest Sony burners out there in several computers, but I have yet to have a problem with any of them. But I use TY or other quality brand DVDs. And I also have a couple of Benq 1640s, a Pioneer 111, a couple of Lite-Ons and a few other assorted brands. And I have yet to do a firmware upgrade of any DVD unit I own. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[buttzilla]

Is that the media's fault or the standalone player?

I only see problems with old SONYs

Its the standalone player. But when you are distributing a product you have to take in consideration that a lot of people have crappy players so you have to do something to have the least returns and thats quality media. I have told people they have shitty players and they don't understand what I mean. The'll tell me this cost me two hundred dollars 5 years ago and to them they think that means it quality and should last a lifetime and it has to be my media not the shitty player or the smeared fingerprint all over the disk. So the best way I found is to use something like taiyo yuden or other quality media and this seems to have less problems in even the crappiest players.

[lordsmurf]

My drives sucessfully burn any media I have tried. Even so-called crap.Does it raise questions?

Yes, it does raise questions. I doubt you're doing adequate testing, and will be in for hell of a shock later down the road.

Your comments remind me of the "Ritek is the best media ever" or "Princo media is fine" comments I saw years ago. Those folks were surprised to learn the burns were bad, when they finally got around to watching them.

Media is a complex topic. You're trying to over-simplify it by blaming a burner.

[tekkieman]

If you need a burner to classify as "crap", perhaps the Optiarc (joint Sony/NEC bastard creations) will qualify...

Mind you, I haven't had a bad burn yet, and it gets rave reviews on Newegg, but I don't think it reads as well as my BenQ. Um....oh yeah! It also doesn't have a different color LED to indicate the difference between reading and burning. That alone is enough to justify a "crap" rating in my book.

[oldandinthe way]

I don't think I'm oversimplifying. The DVD standards place the responsibility for the burner to accomodate the media. Some burners do a better job than others.

There is only one accepted testing method, data verification. Scanning is only reliable on the system which wrote the disk. Therefore even the scan data on CDfreaks which shows 16x CMC media when written on LG H42 drives with scans as good as TY is meaningless. (LGs don't scan).

There is no standard for measuring media longevity. There is an industry working group which has not reported.

Today's 16x media is not the same as 1x, 2x or 4x in its formulation. There is way too little data to judge longevity on 16x media.

Many drives have improved - this means they can accomodate more media variation among other improvements (like speed).

Drives which cannot successfully burn all or at least most media are deficient or broken. Drives which have to burn at half-speed are deficient.

Whether burning only quality media is a prudent activity is separate question from this.

The fact that Butzilla can succesfully burn lower grades of media on his plexor drives is more important to many, than whether an out of production DVDplayer can read it.

A drive that will only succesfully burn TY (I doubt there is such a beast) would be a piece of crap.

Recognition that your burner choice can dictate your media choices is a reality which is too often absent in these discussions.

In my opinion all drives should burn to completion all certified media. Then one can make reasonable quality decisions based on player compatibility and longevity.

Bad Drives should not get a bye because of media.

[ron spencer]

I have never had a crap drive....only bought LG and Benq...remember the old 2x LG 4040b? Never had a problem with standalone....even on a super old toshiba 4800

[TBoneit]

Most of the time i think its the media but i bought a sony dvd/cd writer that could not see cd'a of any type. It read dvd's fine. It could not even see my xp install disk. So there is crappy drives out there, but most of the time its people trying to save a buck and using cheap media.

Bad drive RMA it!Different lasers for DVD and CDrom your Cdrom parts are bad.

[ozymango]

Interesting topic!

I think we live in a culture (USA) that just loves to think that something is:

A) Crap
B) Excellent

and mostly that's just -- if you'll pardon the expression -- a bunch of crap.

I know it's a combination of factors, and for what it's worth I happen to have a lot of real-world experience with DVD blanks, burners, players, etc. because I work tech support at a major university. In the last year especially, we've got DVD burners installed in almost every PC we get (by default), people buy stacks of media, not even bothering to check if it's +, -, DL, or whatever, a lot of software installs now come on DVD ... basically the DVD is now the standard optical drive in a computer and boy, are we learning fast all the fun that means!

I used to be a faithful Pioneer user, but not any more -- we've had seven out of eight Pioneer branded (but I'm pretty sure they were re-branded) burners fail in the last year, versus rock-solid Asus burners that we got dirt cheap (and I figured must be junk) and we use these constantly, with all brands of media, and they're great. Go figure.

I was also surprised to find that our remaining Pioneer burner refuses to recognize TY CD blanks! They just sit and spin. I flashed the firmware, but no dice. Bummer.

Mostly we use Verbatim DVD stock, bulk, but whatever's on sale at Office Depot gets used a lot, too. And several hundred copies of a graduation ceremony from two years ago have been burned on literally no-name blank stock I don't know who got from where (no distinguishing features, haven't bothered to run a media code search but I know this was El Cheapo stuff, purchased by people who can barely use a computer in the first place), and which so far has been holding up pretty good. But this was stuff recorded in 2005, ask me again in a couple of years if it's still working.

[ntscuser]

I had a crap DVD writer. It was an AOpen. I changed the media, I changed the firmware, I changed the authoring tool and - for a short time only - it helped. Finally I did what I should have done in the first place, I changed the DVD writer.

[lordsmurf]

Asus is Pioneer. The folly of brand naming.

[lordsmurf]

"The DVD standards place the responsibility for the burner to accomodate the media. Some burners do a better job than others."
Not true. The onus of quality is shared by media manufacturers too.

"There is only one accepted testing method, data verification."
Not true. There are several ways to test media.

"There is no standard for measuring media longevity. There is an industry working group which has not reported."
Not true. OSTA, NIST and LOC all have findings. So do so many other studies, some private (both closed and open), some public.

"Today's 16x media is not the same as 1x, 2x or 4x in its formulation. There is way too little data to judge longevity on 16x media."
Not true. Again with the narrowminded viewpoint. There is 20 years worth of valid optical analysis to base conclusions, with 7 of them being DVD alone. The changes are not that vast.

"Many drives have improved - this means they can accomodate more media variation among other improvements (like speed)."
Very true. But this only helps so much.

"Drives which cannot successfully burn all or at least most media are deficient or broken. Drives which have to burn at half-speed are deficient."
Not true. At least, not necessarily. This is too complex to comment further.

"The fact that Butzilla can succesfully burn lower grades of media on his plexor drives is more important to many, than whether an out of production DVDplayer can read it."
Not true. The burner is a means to an end, with the end being a player or reader. If you have to use the same burner to read, you have problems.

"A drive that will only succesfully burn TY (I doubt there is such a beast) would be a piece of crap."
True. But there is not such a beast that I know of either.

"Recognition that your burner choice can dictate your media choices is a reality which is too often absent in these discussions."
True, but only to a point. I have a burn that hates TY, and I recognize that it's the burner. Inversely, I have 8 different burners (including the one you use) that burn a Princo like the piece of crap it is. It's not 8 bad burners, it's a piece of crap media.

"In my opinion all drives should burn to completion all certified media. Then one can make reasonable quality decisions based on player compatibility and longevity. "
I wish. I'd like world peace and no income tax too. Fat chance, right?

[ozymango]

Asus is Pioneer. The folly of brand naming.

I figured you'd catch that.

So who makes what? And does it matter all that much anymore?

EDIT: DVD burners and DVD media are complex topics. Much too complex to be dismissed as either "crap" or "good."

EDIT EDIT: Lordsmurf -- and I say this with great affection -- you really do remind me of my dad!

[oldandinthe way]

Well Lordsmurf, we have different reading of the DVD specs and the state-of-the-art in the industry.

Not surprising because we can view the same rotten behavior and based upon our differing experiences in the industry come to differing interpretations.

We cannot argue with the intention of the industry that all certified DVD hardware should be capable of burning all certified media.

And quality is not addressed in the DVD specifications beyond the requirements for certification. So when a burner does not complete the burn process either the media or the burner is at fault. It isn't shared responsibility. I pick the burner.

I am not of the belief that all media failures are the fault of the burner, principally this type of failure.

I've burned Princo successfully but frankly Princo is a red herring, I bought it 2 years ago on a clearance table and am unlikely to be able to find a spindle in any retail store in my area.

By your standard this world is swimming in a sea of "crap media". By my standard most computer users are happily proceeding to write and enjoy video using good drives and compatible media. An a minority of users are going through a lot of unnecessary effort to avoid questioning their choice of hardware.

[lordsmurf]

Much too complex to be dismissed as either "crap" or "good."

I don't see the world in black and white, I see it in shades of gray. I don't believe in "for us or against us" types of mentalities. However, when I refer to "crap media" understand I refer to a large spectrum that has faults, some of them deal-breaking. Only a narrow few fall on the farthest end of the spectrum, in "excellent" territory.

My whole issue is we should not have a spectrum. If one manufacturer can do well, why not all of them? O&ITW insists all media is "fine", but I disagree. That's worse than a B&W world, that's an all-white or all-black world (we call that utopia ... or communism, depends on the topic really).

To me, crap is anything that only works from 0% to 90% of the time.

[fritzi93]

One vote here for crap user.

One can at least get a sense for burner/media combinations. There's burn verification, of course. Also surface scan, disc quality (if the burner is capable of it), and ISO/file compare in DVDinfoPro. I do a full battery of tests with new (to me) media, and occasionally just to see that the burner is working properly.

But it seems there are imponderables in this. For example, how long before el cheapo media craps out? Will it crap out eventually regardless, even though it tests okay after burning? I dunno.

[Baldrick]

I had a crap writer. A NEC ND1300. Haven't been able burn something without problems the last year...

I have now a Macbook with a better dvd writer I hope, haven't tested it yet. (off topic: I'm running Vista on the Macbook...macos was fun to test one day : ) )

[rkr1958]

One vote here for crap user.
For example, how long before el cheapo media craps out? Will it crap out eventually regardless, even though it tests okay after burning? I dunno.

With TY's costing around 30-cents a piece I don't understand why people would now buy crap media. I could understand 3 or 4-years ago when media was $3 a piece.

Also, even with TY's, if it's important I make two copies.

[ntscuser]

One vote here for crap user.
For example, how long before el cheapo media craps out? Will it crap out eventually regardless, even though it tests okay after burning? I dunno.

With TY's costing around 30-cents a piece I don't understand why people would now buy crap media. I could understand 3 or 4-years ago when media was $3 a piece.

Also, even with TY's, if it's important I make two copies.

If you're making three or four hundred bootlegs a saving of even a few cents per disc soon mounts up. Personally I make one copy and one copy only so the cost to me is negligible. I still balk at the cost of decent brand printable DL though.

[classfour]

Crap Writer = Plextor PX712A with firmware earlier than 1.05
Coaster City.

Good Writer on crap media (i.e. cheapo TY clone media) = NEC 3500 and up. You could at least count on a good burn, and it would play.....for awhile.

[oldandinthe way]

With TY's costing around 30-cents a piece I don't understand why people would now buy crap media. I could understand 3 or 4-years ago when media was $3 a piece.
.

Recent sales in big box stores have brought branded and house brand 16x "crap media" to 14 cents each in 50 spindles.

I can't predict where things will be in the future, but it seems to me that TY won't be that cheap until "crap media" gets to 7 cents. If there is still TY media at that point. (Hold on - I'm not suggesting anything about TYs financial health - but when you lose big rebranders, have cost issues and writeable media is a small part of your business, dropping a product line is a possibility - like BenQ exiting the optical business).

As you can tell from my posts, I strongly believe that drives are major contributors to unsuccesful burns.

I use LG drives, but only those with Rennassas chipsets. I get 100% burns to completion at rated speed (unless there is obvious physical flaws on the media). And I get no verification errors. LG makes other drives using a Matsushita chipset which do not get the same results. Posts here and cdfreaks report them. Mechqanically the Rennassas and Matsushita drives are very similar.

AS a perfect drive - it isn't. Requires firmware patching to remove riplock. Still is slow to rip some disks. Mechanical problems begin at about 12 months of heavy use. Experienced laser death at about 15 months. But 15 months without a failed burn. And it doesn't scan (not an issue for me).

I know from my Lite-on recorder and past experience with Lite-On CD products they experience they experience mechanical problems with their doors. I know from testing and returning rebadged Lite-On writers they have problems burning CMC media to completion, the LG does not have.

I know the lifespan without error is greater than 1 year on the following media, MCC 16x, CMC 8x, 16x, Opto 8x, Ricoh 16x, Ritek 4x. Based on hundreds of each drive with no failure - when burned on he LG. Ritek and Opto when burned on a TSST drive have shown a 1 - 2% failure rate within 1 year. No failures on MCC 16x or CMC 8x or 16x.

[CODEWERKX]

had a pioneer 111 that would not recognize ANY brand of blank cd....returned it for replacement at best buy and all is well. i use TY, Ritek, and Verbatim, depending on what i am using the disc for. one VERY interesting note: the Verbatim dvd+r dl's have caused undo problems. the main result was that when the burn would start the prompt thec computer would say is "bad media"...try another dics from the spindle, same thing, try another...successful burn. i saved those 'bad media' discs and tried them again....good burn. i found that the pioneer 111 loves memorex dvd+r dl's. go figure

[Krispy Kritter]

Anyone else tired of beating this dead horse? Regardless of anyones viewpoints on hardware or media, we still have to deal with the reality. If a burner can successfully handle brands A, B, C, & E, but has issues with D. Then don't buy brand D. It doesn't really matter if brand D is TY or CMC. It doesn't work, so don't buy it.

I agree that all burners should be able to handle most media, all in a perfect world. But I also understand that all media is not the same quality. It doesn't matter if they both meet specifications. Some is just better than others.

It is easier for anyone to try different media than to buy and replace hardware. Should be need to? No. However, it should also be noted that most issues reported here are with stand alone players. The only thing you can do in that case is try different media until you find one that is compatible with your standalone.

[hech54]

I use LG drives, but only those with Rennassas chipsets. I get 100% burns to completion at rated speed (unless there is obvious physical flaws on the media). And I get no verification errors. LG makes other drives using a Matsushita chipset which do not get the same results. Posts here and cdfreaks report them. Mechqanically the Rennassas and Matsushita drives are very similar.

I'm a die-hard LG fan myself.
I have absolutely no clue what chipset(whatever that is) is in a 4167B or an old 4040B drive.
My LG's burn everything and do it well. I still buy, use and stand by Ritek/RiData silver topped media (as long as it is rated 8x or under)....but my preferred media is TY 8x silver topped.
My LG's will burn everything....and stuff that my newer BenQ refused to burn.

[TBoneit]

I Had problems burning +R DLs in a Pioneer 109, So I gave up. When I changed to a Lite-On all the rest of the spindle burned and played fine. Same Software, Same porcess, Same computer, same windows install.

So fo rme the Pioneer 109 was crap. It was always picky about media and even gave some bad burns on MIJ media or Verbatim.

[lordsmurf]

I have a NEC 1300 (1100 cross-hacked to 1300) and it works fine, even burns DVD-R quite well. I have a Pioneer 109. It burns Verbatim DVD+R DL without flaw. So we have two burners named as "crap" (two that I just happen to own) without any media information. Both are older drives (the NEC on SL, the 109 on DL) for what they were being used for, so a newer drive with newer firmware probably would work better on newer discs. Newer discs, not crap discs.

While the writers very well might have been bad, it wasn't the model or production line, but merely that one drive. Or was it? It could have just as likely been the media. You see where lack of details prevents conclusions? You simply don't have enough data to back up your guess/assumption/hypothesis about drives being more at fault than discs. On the other hand, we have years of results that point to DVD media being the culprit, as well as a decade worth of cd-r information too.

Crap software and crap users are good, however. Programs that don't work right and people that don't know what they're doing are just as much to blame as media, in many cases. When you use an all-in-one to create a DVD, and you just click blindly on "OK" buttons, problems are likely to happen.

Bad writers? Sure, but not a major factor, not really. It would fall 4th in your list of importance (although it really depends on the exact flaws and full details of the incident).

We can agree, however, that there is not one right answer. It's not always bad media, but it's the most likely and most typical of the available reasons.