Windows VS. OSX (or the great flame wars)

[ssj2_goha]

I figured seeing as I seem to post on this topic ALOT. Why don't we just have a good old fashion FACT based discussion on the whole Windows VS. OSX.

Basically here is what this is for: Anyone tell me a problem with OSX (or Windows) And I will either Agree with you, or I will provide factual sources to prove it as a myth. Think of this as mythbusters for Computers. And yes flame all you want, I will ignore any flames directed my way.

I welcome all statements

[lordsmurf]

Windows XP can crash.
OS X can crash.
But generally both are stable.

Windows XP can get a virus.
OS X can get a virus.
But anti-virus is all you need to protect you.

Windows XP can get network intrusions.
OS X can get network intrusions.
But all you need is firewall software or hardware.

Windows XP can get spyware/crapware.
OS X can get spyware/crapware.
But all you need is to be smart, don't blindly install crap.

Windows XP does not really fragment or need defrag.
OS X does not really need a defrag.
But sometimes a defrag is good for the health of the drive.

Windows XP does not support all hardware.
OS X does not support all hardware.
But generally both support most devices most of the time just fine.

Windows OS get too old for new software.
Mac OS get too old for new software.
Those situations can be a pain, but others do not care and upgrade.

I get sick of fanboys either way.

The devil with Mac vs PC is in the OS choice and software choice. Mac is a small audience, has less software, it cannot and never has been able to "do anything". Windows wants to run everything, and unfortunately that will mean more threats. Other OS are for niche uses, they will never be mainstream as they exist now.

Take this guy here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/why-pros-use-mac.htm
He's an outstanding photographer. He know his stuff. But when it comes to computers, his Mac loving, his head is so far up his ass he can smell his viewfinder. His site is so full of photo myth-busting that I am saddened to see his computer knowledge is basically 100% myth from 20-25 years ago.

[ssj2_goha]

Very good start I agree with all of your stements.

The only thing i have to add is this: Windows has a higher number of virus out there and yeah the only real reason behind that is that windows is used more. Also at this point and time all "important" software (read as non-games) are available for both OS. And games are rapidly catching up.

[SquirrelDip]

... the only real reason behind that is that windows is used more...

Not the only reason - probably the main reason but definitely not the only. 99% of people sit using their Windows boxes with full admin rights. It's a pain to constantly be logging in and out of admin (or switch users) so most don't do it. Vista is emulating what Linux/Mac does but I haven't used/seen Vista enough to comment.

Mac people love to bash Windows for what they've copied. I see this as pot calling kettle... Mac has done it's fair share or copying. I also don't see this as a problem - give me the best that I can get regardless of which platform I choose.

Mac sells a lot of hardware based on looks. This fact really saved their ass a few years back. And really, who cares - there's people on both sides of the fence that don't know what the hell their talking about, as well as those that do. If looks sell a few more computers and get a few more people using then what's so wrong.

I'd really like to see Mac sell OS X for the PC. Suppose it will never happen as it would piss Microsoft off to no end - and Mac needs Microsoft. Yes they do. (I'd still like to see it - doesn't Mac make most of it's money from iPod's???)

[lordsmurf]

If Apple sold OS X for generic PC boxes, they'd have me as a customer the next day, buying OS X and DVD Studio Pro software.

[ssj2_goha]

OSX on any PC would be nice. But it would cause alot of people to have driver problems...... Seeing as Apple only has drivers for their hardware. But yeah I would put all my computers if I could. It would really help OSX's market share.

[SquirrelDip]

...But it would cause alot of people to have driver problems...... Seeing as Apple only has drivers for their hardware...

Why? Apple would have to open up and let vendors develop drivers for OSX - you then install drivers for new hardware as you do with Windows.

The downside here will be stability. Many (probably most) stability issues with Windows are due to crappy drivers - OSX would then be subject to the same problems.

[lordsmurf]

OSX on any PC would be nice. But it would cause alot of people to have driver problems...... Seeing as Apple only has drivers for their hardware. But yeah I would put all my computers if I could. It would really help OSX's market share.

Apple really **** themselves with their strategy. An alternative, stable, non-Linux OS would catch on. And then there is all the Apple software too.

While they may gain a few hardware buyers for their overpriced hardware, they lose dozens of sales of an OS and software. And I don't know how true it is, but I would imagine manufacturing costs on software is much less than hardware.

Apple has just not matured past 1985. Hardware no longer gets a 300% return investment. Most days the computer companies are lucky to scrape out a 10-25% profit margin.

[thecoalman]

Also at this point and time all "important" software (read as non-games) are available for both OS.

I don't think it's a matter of all the "imporatant" software but all the other applications that are available especially where open source is concerned. In a lot of cases you have multiple choices for the same task. A quick look through the tools section on this site alone will confirm that. That IMO is the Mac's achilles heal, add to that those that are developing pay for software for it have no incentive to improve it. You don't have to keep up with the Jonses if they don't exist.

[Ron B]

I'll have one of each. please.

Thank you.

[dnix71]

OS X doesn't get viruses. OS 9 and earlier did. People who say OS X does simply aren't telling the truth. You can social engineer a root kit, but the OS X user will still have to give a password and admin name for it to work.

You better not try to defrag OS X, even with Norton. Third party defrag can kill OS X. It is designed to defrag itself automatically (10.3 and 10.4) as long as you don't cram the hd so full it can't. It isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed like XP.

OS X doesn't have a registry, doesn't need to be activated or registered, won't go into reduced functionality mode if it can't call home to Papa, doesn't need a serial number to install.

It will play commercial dvd's all by itself, without third party software. It can be used to create, edit and burn to disc home movies that will play on a standard tabletop dvd set.

You can compose music straight from the box (Garageband), legally buy music online and burn off a backup to audio cd straight out of the box.

There are few driver issues to deal with, because it was written for a limited hadware set. It doesn't crash like Windows either. I've had an eMac 3 years now and it has kernel paniced twice, both times because line noise dialing out on my modem caused it to think the modem itself had failed. I couldn't even get a dial tone on a regular phone sometimes because the local phone company doesn't take care of their equipment.

[thecoalman]

OS X doesn't get viruses.

"Some owners of Mac computers have held the belief that Mac OS X is incapable of harboring computer viruses, but Leap-A will leave them shellshocked, as it shows that the malware threat on Mac OS X is real," said Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant for Sophos. "Mac users shouldn't think it's okay to lie back and not worry about viruses."

http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2006/02/macosxleap.html

-----------------

It will play commercial dvd's all by itself, without third party software.

This adds to the cost because Apple has to pay to license it, XP could provide this but doesn't. Doesn't Vista play DVD's out of the box?

It can be used to create, edit and burn to disc home movies that will play on a standard tabletop dvd set.

You can compose music straight from the box (Garageband), legally buy music online and burn off a backup to audio cd straight out of the box.

The only thing you got going for you there is a audio apllication, Windows may not be able to do some of things "out of the box" but any assembled computer for consumers is going to have software for burning audio and DVD's, if you put it together yourself the DVD player will come with it. Realistically the only way you'd get stuck is if you bought a OEM drive. In that case you could just go download some free stuff.

There are few driver issues to deal with, because it was written for a limited hadware set.

That speaks for itself. :P

It doesn't crash like Windows either.

I've been running XP for about 3 years now, has only done the BSOD on me a few times. Too much overclock, I tweaked it back a bit and it hasn't acted up since....

[lordsmurf]

I don't want a computer that works "out of the box". I'd rather customize it to my own needs, not to the needs as bestowed upon me by Apple.

I see "ready out of the box" as a disadvantage, not a benefit.

Most educated/skilled Mac users will spend hours undoing the "out of the box" settings, just like Windows users will spend hours creating a custom setup to suit their needs.

For the Mac users that are total unaware of how the rest of the world of computers actually works, this is why people gripe about HP and Dell and all. Their computers come ready "out of the box" but it's loaded down with a bunch of shit we don't want.

[ssj2_goha]

For the Mac users that are total unaware of how the rest of the world of computers actually works, this is why people gripe about HP and Dell and all. Their computers come ready "out of the box" but it's loaded down with a bunch of shit we don't want.

the only problem with this statement is that it make it seem like macs come with "crapware" on them, they don't. "Out of the Box" is meant to mean "plug it in and it works" no real setup needed (drivers, removal of crapware) and yes while most mac users do customize the setup of their macs but it nothing like setting up windows. For most people "out of the Box" setting on a mac work perfectly fine.

[dnix71]

Leap A isn't a virus. Read the article. Old news that isn't news. It's a worm that spreads through IM only if the user tries to open an attachment and then gives an admin name and password. Sophos was spreading FUD in the hope of selling Mac users something they didn't need.

Opening an image in Preview never requires an admin password. If the user is that stupid, then they deserve what they get.

There are plenty of consumer peecees that can't deal with playing or encoding dvd movies. It depends on what you are willing to pay for. Apple won't sell low end junk. It doesn't pay in the long run. I had a 233MHz iMac that originally ran OS 8.6 that would still run 10.3. Apple's OS isn't bloatware that requires replacing the hardware every OS update cycle.

Customizing a mac isn't hard, either. I don't use many "i" apps because the freeware available doesn't have the drm with it. iTunes went in the trash along with the Apple DVD Player. VLC, MPlayer, Audacity and QTAmateur are excellent replacements.

[ssj2_goha]

Leap A isn't a virus. Read the article. Old news that isn't news. It's a worm that spreads through IM only if the user tries to open an attachment and then gives an admin name and password. Sophos was spreading FUD in the hope of selling Mac users something they didn't need.

Opening an image in Preview never requires an admin password. If the user is that stupid, then they deserve what they get.

There are plenty of consumer peecees that can't deal with playing or encoding dvd movies. It depends on what you are willing to pay for. Apple won't sell low end junk. It doesn't pay in the long run. I had a 233MHz iMac that originally ran OS 8.6 that would still run 10.3. Apple's OS isn't bloatware that requires replacing the hardware every OS update cycle.

You are totally right. Apple only sells hardware that will last. I dropped my iBook down a flight a cement steps while it was running. and it still runs to this day. (the only "upgrade" i did to it is I put in a bigger harddrive)

[thecoalman]

Leap A isn't a virus. Read the article. Old news that isn't news. It's a worm that spreads through IM only if the user tries to open an attachment and then gives an admin name and password.

Call it what you wish but it's a security threat to OSX that can replicate itself which is the bottom line. In my book that's a virus. Sad to say but it won't be the last either, no computer system will ever be 100% secure unless you unplug it from the wall and never put another disc in it. My WinXP installation has had only one virus/malware installed, and that was because someone else was using my PC.

BTW LS you ever get that printer to stop printing porn? That was one of the funniest things I ever read.

There are plenty of consumer peecees that can't deal with playing or encoding dvd movies. It depends on what you are willing to pay for.

You average low end consumer PC is probably in the 3.0GHZ range right now which is more than adequate for encoding a video, quite fast at around 45min-1 hour for a straight DV-AVI to MPEG encode. Even going back 4 or 5 years they were powerful enough to both encode and and play a DVD. Coincidentally I just burned a DVD on my brothers 5 year old computer with AMD 2200, no issues. Took a while is all... I should drag my p1 233mhz out of the closet and see if I could make one. Being that its running win98 software shouldn't be an isuue, might take a week though...

[dnix71]

Coalman, you don't get it. Leap A isn't a virus and it can't replicate itself. That's exactly what is at stake. For this to go to the next user, the previous user must give a user name and password simply to view an image.

It isn't even a proper worm in the Windows sense, because it can't self propogate. iChat was patched so only people with certain versions of OS X and iChat are even still vulnerable.

Each upgrade of OS X has changes under the hood so an exploit for Jag won't likely work in Panther or Tiger. OS X doesn't keep the same path and permissions for things like system files like Windows does.

http://www.apple.com/getamac/viruses.html explains it pretty well.

[ssj2_goha]

Coalman, you don't get it. Leap A isn't a virus and it can't replicate itself. That's exactly what is at stake. For this to go to the next user, the previous user must give a user name and password simply to view an image.

It isn't even a proper worm in the Windows sense, because it can't self propogate. iChat was patched so only people with certain versions of OS X and iChat are even still vulnerable.

Each upgrade of OS X has changes under the hood so an exploit for Jag won't likely work in Panther or Tiger. OS X doesn't keep the same path and permissions for things like system files like Windows does.

http://www.apple.com/getamac/viruses.html explains it pretty well.

Do you have a reference for this other than the apple website. i know it's a reference but just it being the apple website makes it biased.

[thecoalman]

Leap A isn't a virus and it can't replicate itself.

From Macworld:

Once installed, Leap-A does two things. First, it tries to send a version of itself to everyone on your iChat buddy list. All of your buddies will receive the standard iChat file transfer message, though you won’t see any activity on your end. Second, Leap-A will start infecting Cocoa applications on your machine, via an InputManager that it installs in your user’s directory. Each time you launch an infected Cocoa application, Leap-A will use OS X 10.4’s Spotlight search feature to find the four most-recently-used applications. If they’re Cocoa apps, Leap-A will infect them as well.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/02/16/leapafaq/index.php

I don't know what your definition of replication is but that certainly fits my definition. Virus, trojan, etc... any name you want to put on it I don't really care it's irrelevant to me. The fact is it's malicious code that can be passed on to another mac. The fact that it requires user intervention is meanigless, as I pointed out above I haven't had one piece of malicious code except one that I'm aware of in 3 years.... The reason why? Cause I'm not stupid enough to click on shit I shouldn't and I keep my security software up to date.

If you truly think your Mac is immune from getting hit by a virus or other malicious code you are ignorant to what the facts are. As I stated above there is no system in the entire world that is totally immune from malicios code. Never was and never will be, the only thing required is for someone with enough knowledge and ingenutiy to sit down and write it.

[ssj2_goha]

yes right now they are secure, but as the market share rises so will the number of people making code to mess up systems.

on a side note i personally think there should be very severe punishments for people that make virus and trojans. this includes all spyware/malware.

[thecoalman]

yes right now they are secure, but as the market share rises so will the number of people making code to mess up systems.

And that's another good point as well, if you switched around the market share you can bet there would be many viruses written to exploit a Mac. Would it be as vulnerable as a Windows machine? Maybe not,, it may very well be more secure than windows machine but to think it's impervious to viruses is living in a dreamworld.

[ssj2_goha]

Although i will say apple does seem to fix security flaw faster than micro$oft. when they had the "month of OSX security flaws" they fixed all of them in like a week. where it seems some of the win95 flaws are still in XP (can't speak for vista haven't used it, and probably never will)

[dnix71]

"Once installed, Leap-A does two things."


Read it again. You have to install it by giving it an admin password. Opening an image doesn't require a password. The permissions setup in Linux/OS X is a lot tighter than Windows. Even if you were logged in as admin you would still have to give Leap-A a password, because it makes changes to your Applications folder.

I tried a beta version of VLC a month ago and didn't carefully check the readme.txt. The install had me wondering what the h*ll was going on. For the app to work for any other user, each user had to install the main program folder individually. There was a permissions change between Tiger and Panther in User's "preferences" and the beta VLC would work in Tiger correctly but not in Panther. Each program stores a users presets in a pref list. That is frustrating to developers, sometimes, but it protects the users. Apple does things like that on purpose.

Windows users don't usually understand because they just double-click on an .exe and it runs all sorts of scripts, writing changes to the system, registery and program folders. Installing a program on a Mac requires at least one password, and maybe several, depending on the script and whether or not the user is already logged in as admin.

I usually never log in as admin unless I have to get root for an install. And then I'm pissed, because the person writing the script shouldn't have used 'sudo', that should be reserved for fixes that can't be done any other way. ffmpegX uses sudo to install, and you have to open a terminal shell and 'sudo tcsh' to install it if you are not an admin. You can get root in XP by just hijacking IE. Even in Vista that can't be completely fixed, because IE's html rendering engine is where MS hides the call home code and it's back-doors to disable your computer if they think you are pirating the OS.

Apple didn't put backdoors in your computer.

[thecoalman]

Read it again..

There is no mention of having to give it permission in that article, Here's a quote from the follow up article...

Setup

The first thing I did was set up my test machine, my handy PowerBook. I installed a fresh version of OS X 10.4 on a partition on a FireWire drive, updated it to 10.4.5, and then put a copy of Leap-A on the FireWire drive. I then booted from the FireWire drive and then unmounted the internal hard drive (for safety’s sake). I also disabled AirPort and unplugged the Ethernet cable. I now had an effectively isolated machine, ready to suffer the wrath of Leap-A.

Pulling the Trigger

With a slightly nervous finger, I double-clicked the .tgz file, watched it expand, then double-clicked the “JPEG image” to launch the malware. For all of you who are curious, here’s exactly what happened. A Terminal window appears, with the results of a script’s execution:


At this point, the malware is now installed on the machine. If you have your InputManagers folder owned by root, however, you’ll instead see a “Permission Denied” error message in that window. (Note that the bit that infects applications will still be installed.) The other thing that’s happened, which you won’t see, is that your /tmp directory now holds a copy of the .tgz archive, ready for distribution via iChat (more on that later).

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/02/17/leapafollow/index.php

[lordsmurf]

When it comes to modern-ear video, both Mac and Windows were ready at the same time, spring/summer 2001. Mac came out with a bunch of G4 machines, and Intel/Windows came out with 1.5Ghz+ machines. Both had DVD burners (Pioneer 103), and worked well with an NLE (Premiere, FCP) and at least one decent encoder (LSX, Cleaner, CCE). As time has gone on, Windows acquired the most software. And I don't mean 27 encoders, but special software like Kprobe and Restream, something that has no equivalent on the Mac.

The reason Mac OS gets less virus is two-fold.
- First, hackers are egotists. Even a bad attempt (10%) on Windows would do more damage than a good attempt (95%) on Mac, because of the ~3% market share of Mac compared to ~90% of Windows.
- Second, hackers tend to be losers with no skill. They alter and copy each other's work, which is why most virus are variances of each others. Since there are fewer Mac OS X virus to start from, less idiots can alter and re-release them, especially ones that have been fixed.

So, in other words, Mac is only "safe" from morons and non-Mac users. If somebody wanted to really screw up the Mac scene, trust that it can be done, and it will probably happen eventually. It would take higher market share to be appealing, however. Right now, the relatively obscure nature of the OS makes it not worth the effort.

You'll notice I use the word "less" and not "no / zero". This is because Mac OS can get a virus (or whatever you want to call malicious code, don't play semantics), and any Mac user that thinks otherwise is living in a dream.