dvd formats ntsc/pal

[questionsaboutstuff]

I have been reading some of the other threads about pal/ntsc but I'm still not sure about this.
I sell dvd's in the US but want to make them available internationally. I use Vegas 6.0. It has a feature to switch between ntsc and pal and I think it automatically changes the frame rate as well. Is burning a PAL dvd that simple? I'm confused by all the region codes and not sure if the dvd's will play correctly on all players. Is there a way to overcome this or do dvd's need to be set up differently per region?
I'm obviously very inexperienced with this and would hire someone to do it for me if that was an option but for now I am sincerely trying to learn on my own.
Thanks for any help offered,
Erin

[edDV]

Most PAL players will also play an NTSC DVD but not visa versa.

Do your market research to see if a NTSC (region free) DVD is acceptable. PAL DVD authoring is a big high tech headache if you shot for NTSC.

[questionsaboutstuff]

edDv
thankyou for your fast reply.
Am I to understand this right then, all ntsc dvd's are region-free and playable on most PAL dvd players so I do not need to bother with saving as a PAL?
Also, if you don't mind answering a couple more questions; what format should I use to save the movies so they are in best quality for dvd? I think I read something about mpeg files not working correctly on PAL dvd players but I can't find the article now to prove it. I also read that sound could be affected during playback of ntsc discs on a PAL player.
I appreciate any advice.
Thanks,
Erin

[guns1inger]

Do not confuse region with format. They are not the same thing. For example, Australia is in Region 4, and is a PAL country. However a number of studios have released NTSC discs with Region 4 restrictions.

All DVDs are mpeg encoded. For the most part Mpeg2. This goes for PAL and NTSC. All DVD players can play back VBR encoded video and audio. Audio on NTSC DVDs played back on PAL players is fine. There have been issues with Divx players, but that is not a DVD issue. Any other DVD myths you want to raise. There is so much crap put about by people who know very little that it is easy to get confused and mis-led.

You might want to have a read of this post -> https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=314581 which covers much of the same ground.

[ntscuser]

I sell dvd's in the US but want to make them available internationally. I use Vegas 6.0. It has a feature to switch between ntsc and pal and I think it automatically changes the frame rate as well. Is burning a PAL dvd that simple? I'm confused by all the region codes and not sure if the dvd's will play correctly on all players. Is there a way to overcome this or do dvd's need to be set up differently per region?

You need to make PAL recordings for countries which use PAL and NTSC recordings for countries which use NTSC. A list of which countries use which system can be found here:-
http://www.scotland-info.co.uk/video-formats.htm
There is no disc you can burn yourself - PAL or NTSC -which is guaranteed to play on any machine. For that you would have to employ a commercial pressing plant.

Region-coding is an artificial restriction imposed by major studios and need not concern you.

[dcsos]

Authoring PAL is as easy as it looks.
If you need to make a PAL version just ENCODE in PAL MPEG-2 instead of NTSC
If you choose PAL in VEGAS 6, it'll look for the PAL COMPLIANT ASSET you've imported and RENDER AND PREPARE for the BURN right on the same USA machine!
It'll burn the same

Just make sure you enable it for all REGIONS..
Not sure how you do this in VEGAS or if its the default.. (ANYONE?)

I needed to make my project region free when authored in CREATOR on MACINTOSH and PAL will not play on many early DVD players for USA (those that do, convert the signal to NTSC right inside the settop)

[Noahtuck]

You need to make PAL recordings for countries which use PAL and NTSC recordings for countries which use NTSC.

No you don't

I have shipped literally 100's of dvd's to the U.K. & Australia over the last few years and not one single disc was PAL and they were all region free and i have never had a problem.

[dcsos]

That's because computers will always get around the PAL-NTSC format problem..
Its only if you ship to settop users, especially those lacking a computer.. that NTSCuser is right

[FulciLives]

If the source in question is that from a NTSC camcorder then the conversion to PAL will be very difficult if not impossible to get "correct" simply because true interlaced 29.970fps NTSC simply does not convert well to the PAL format.

That was what edDV was on about.

So perhaps the thread creator can go into details about the source a bit more?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

Still looking for more from questionsaboutstuff about who he intends to buy or who needs to watch (if free). Maybe he is out doing his market research.

Computers can play it without conversion. That target market is maybe 0.0002% for anyone willing to use their Visa card.

Most PAL DVD players can play a self NTSC mastered DVD without serious issues.

Converting an NTSC master to PAL is both expensive and tech heavy. Few know how to do it well. Results will be "good" at best + expensive.

"Hollywood" decides up front whether a quality PAL release is at least 50% important. If so, they shoot for multistandard from the first day.

[Richard_G]

Here we go again......

The US uses NTSC and is in DVD Region 1. Europe uses PAL and is in Region 2. However, Japan is also in Region 2 and uses NTSC. Consequently, ALL region 2 settop DVD players will play both PAL and NTSC. No exceptions, no ifs, no buts.

So, as far as format is concerned, there is no need to convert from NTSC to PAL for a disc to play in a European DVD player.

The Region coding is a different matter. A Region locked machine will only play discs with the correct Region coding. So a US Region 1 machine will only play a Region 1 disc, a European Region 2 machine will only play a Region 2 disc. But again, virtually all will play a disc from the correct Region and also a Region free (Region 0) disc. There may be the odd machine that won't like a Region 0 disc, but they are very few and far between.

[ntscuser]

Here we go again......

The US uses NTSC and is in DVD Region 1. Europe uses PAL and is in Region 2. However, Japan is also in Region 2 and uses NTSC. Consequently, ALL region 2 settop DVD players will play both PAL and NTSC. No exceptions, no ifs, no buts.

Not if they are "home made", even some Region-1 players will not accept home-made recordings. And if the end user does not have an NTSC-capable monitor, there is no point in sending them an NTSC recording. Some TV sets used in PAL countries can only display a PAL picture.

[Noahtuck]

That's because computers will always get around the PAL-NTSC format problem..
Its only if you ship to settop users, especially those lacking a computer.. that NTSCuser is right

Correct on the pc, wrong on the settop.
The majority of people have stated ahead of time they would be using settop players, as 99.9% of people in the real world do, and there has never been a complaint!!
And yes, they were "homemade" dvd+r's booktyped to dvd-rom.

Here we go again......

The US uses NTSC and is in DVD Region 1. Europe uses PAL and is in Region 2. However, Japan is also in Region 2 and uses NTSC. Consequently, ALL region 2 settop DVD players will play both PAL and NTSC. No exceptions, no ifs, no buts.

So, as far as format is concerned, there is no need to convert from NTSC to PAL for a disc to play in a European DVD player.

The Region coding is a different matter. A Region locked machine will only play discs with the correct Region coding. So a US Region 1 machine will only play a Region 1 disc, a European Region 2 machine will only play a Region 2 disc. But again, virtually all will play a disc from the correct Region and also a Region free (Region 0) disc. There may be the odd machine that won't like a Region 0 disc, but they are very few and far between.

Even beyond region 2, region 4 (Australia) has never had a problem with any disc i have sent.

[Richard_G]

Here we go again......

The US uses NTSC and is in DVD Region 1. Europe uses PAL and is in Region 2. However, Japan is also in Region 2 and uses NTSC. Consequently, ALL region 2 settop DVD players will play both PAL and NTSC. No exceptions, no ifs, no buts.

Not if they are "home made", even some Region-1 players will not accept home-made recordings. And if the end user does not have an NTSC-capable monitor, there is no point in sending them an NTSC recording. Some TV sets used in PAL countries can only display a PAL picture.

Whether a player will play "home made" discs, isn't to do with whether it can play NTSC or PAL or the Region coding. Some players will simply not play DVDR discs, some will only play DVD-R, some will only play DVD+R. Brand name players are actually worse for this, some JVC players will only play DVD-R and not DVD+R for instance.

A Region 2 DVD player WILL play both PAL and NTSC discs. What it outputs is the important thing that dictates whether or not it can be displayed by a TV. Most will have an option in the setup menu to define what is output if an NTSC disc is played, the options are usually NTSC (which most modern TVs will display perfectly OK if SCART is used to connect the DVD player to the TV), PAL60 (a PAL signal but with NTSC framerate which again virtually all modern TVs will display) or straightforward PAL (which every TV will display). The only time I have found a DVD player/TV combination that would not display an NTSC format DVD correctly, it could be cured by changing this setting

[dcsos]

Correct on the pc, wrong on the settop.
The majority of people have stated ahead of time they would be using settop players, as 99.9% of people in the real world do, and there has never been a complaint!!

I'm glad you had no complaints, but the fact remains, If you are targeting SETTOP users, the proper choice is to re author in PAL.
There is even an arrogance with which NTSC companies treat euro users by only releasing NTSC versions

this site even claims PAL DVD's are better...so technically, while you have no complaints, by choosing NTSC only.....
politically you are making a statement as well.
http://www.dvdlard.co.uk/Content.aspx?ContentID=109

[edDV]

Correct on the pc, wrong on the settop.
The majority of people have stated ahead of time they would be using settop players, as 99.9% of people in the real world do, and there has never been a complaint!!

I'm glad you had no complaints, but the fact remains, If you are targeting SETTOP users, the proper choice is to re author in PAL.
There is even an arrogance with which NTSC companies treat euro users by only releasing NTSC versions

this site even claims PAL DVD's are better...so technically, while you have no complaints, by choosing NTSC only.....
politically you are making a statement as well.
http://www.dvdlard.co.uk/Content.aspx?ContentID=109

An NTSC master converted to PAL won't be better. It will suffer from reinterpolation from 720x480 to 720x576 and all frames need reconstruction interpolation from 29.97 to 25 fps. There will be various blurs and jerky motion artifacts plus it will be expensive in time or hardware to do the conversion.

For this reason, "Hollywood" still shoots most shows intended for international distribution on film or 24fps HD. Conversion from a progressive 59.94 or 50 fps HD master is also possible with high quality.

"Corporate" type videos are often mastered in either 480i or 576i and then converted in standards conversion hardware at a dub house.

[questionsaboutstuff]

I appreciate all the responses! But I think I'm more confused now than I was when I first posted.
I am using Panasonic PV-GS500 (sorry dont know how to link) My customers will forgive if the quality of the video is not top-notch due to conversion since it is of an amateur nature anyways. But, it is really not too much effort for me to render the videos in both formats if that is the only way to go.
After edDV's response I read a couple of articles that stated 95% of PAL players/tv's would support NTSC dvd's. I have potential customers in several countries that I'm sure would have no problem testing the videos for me to see if NTSC would be a reasonable option so that is what I plan to do. If anyone is interested in the results of this I can post their feedback here.

Thanks for the help,

Erin

ps I liked your tribute page Fulcilives

[FulciLives]

After edDV's response I read a couple of articles that stated 95% of PAL players/tv's would support NTSC dvd's. I have potential customers in several countries that I'm sure would have no problem testing the videos for me to see if NTSC would be a reasonable option so that is what I plan to do. If anyone is interested in the results of this I can post their feedback here.

Why not send them NTSC and PAL copies. Yes I realize you want to see if NTSC will play but make a PAL version and ask them to give you feedback on which looks better. One would think that the PAL version would look better but due to the conversion from NTSC to PAL that is debatable so their insight into viewing both would be most welcomed.

ps I liked your tribute page Fulcilives

Thanks for those kind words. I can't believe the man has been dead for 10 years now. But such is life. Oh and that is merely a link ... I didn't have any input into that website.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Richard_G]

If you are shooting in NTSC, leave it that way. No matter what method you use to convert to PAL, you will lose quality. The quality loss will be much less noticable if the conversion is done by the DVD player or TV during playback. As I've already said, European DVD players are designed to cope with both formats, let them do the job.

[ntscuser]

If you are shooting in NTSC, leave it that way. No matter what method you use to convert to PAL, you will lose quality. The quality loss will be much less noticable if the conversion is done by the DVD player or TV during playback. As I've already said, European DVD players are designed to cope with both formats, let them do the job.

But PAL TV sets are not. Many of them are locked to 625-lines/50Hz and cannot display any other frame rate. The end user would need a full standards converting DVD player which is still a rarity.

[Richard_G]

But PAL TV sets are not. Many of them are locked to 625-lines/50Hz and cannot display any other frame rate. The end user would need a full standards converting DVD player which is still a rarity.

You seem to be at least 10 years out of date?? Just about every modern TV sold has a multi-standard VHF/UHF tuner and will also happily accept an NTSC input. As I've already pointed out,

A Region 2 DVD player WILL play both PAL and NTSC discs. What it outputs is the important thing that dictates whether or not it can be displayed by a TV. Most will have an option in the setup menu to define what is output if an NTSC disc is played, the options are usually NTSC (which most modern TVs will display perfectly OK if SCART is used to connect the DVD player to the TV), PAL60 (a PAL signal but with NTSC framerate which again virtually all modern TVs will display) or straightforward PAL (which every TV will display). The only time I have found a DVD player/TV combination that would not display an NTSC format DVD correctly, it could be cured by changing this setting

output settings on DVD players can be changed. Even the £17 Tesco own brand DVD player has this option.

[videopoo]

Also another point to remember here is financial


Discs which are often sold to people here in NTSC land may also be sold to people in Europe. That means 2 sets of replication costs not to mention authoring/design/encoding ect. If your selling to both go with NTSC. If you have a budget and count on making the money back go both ways. If its a "one off", it depends on what your original source material is.

Also DVD/+Rs do not support region coding This is only supported by DVD-VIDEO

All DVD-/+R are Open Region

[guns1inger]

You can put region codes on DVD-/+R - you cannot put CSS encryption on burned discs. A number of authoring tools support it.

That said, region coding is pretty pointless given the ease with which it can be removed.

[videopoo]

Dooh...Thats right...Thanks for the Clarification

[frappawotsit]

I appreciate all the responses! But I think I'm more confused now than I was when I first posted.
I am using Panasonic PV-GS500 (sorry dont know how to link) My customers will forgive if the quality of the video is not top-notch due to conversion since it is of an amateur nature anyways. But, it is really not too much effort for me to render the videos in both formats if that is the only way to go.
After edDV's response I read a couple of articles that stated 95% of PAL players/tv's would support NTSC dvd's. I have potential customers in several countries that I'm sure would have no problem testing the videos for me to see if NTSC would be a reasonable option so that is what I plan to do. If anyone is interested in the results of this I can post their feedback here.

Thanks for the help,

Erin


Don't know if it helps, but i'm from the Uk, (PAL) but I own a Panasonic PVGS500 camcorder (like you) bought from the states. Needless to say, it shoots in NTSC.

When i've kept the video in NTSC format, burned to disc and played it (on my standard UK standalone DVD player) it gives a great picture.

When i've converted the output to PAL, burned to disc and played it (on same standard UK standalone DVD player) the quality is OK, but not as good.

I can confirm, every TV i've owned for the last 15yrs or so has been perfectly capable of allowing me to view NTSC footage. I'm sure someone here will shoot me down, but I think you're wasting your time/money/effort to try altering from NTSC to PAL, I would be VERY surprised if at least 99.9% of your PAL target customers couldn't play your NTSC discs without any problem. They probably wouldn't even realise they were playing a different format.

My advice..... forget about the NTSC - PAL issue, supply your customers with whichever format you natively shoot in.

As has been mentioned earlier, I believe this would not be the case if you were trying it the other way around (PAL on an NTSC monitor) as I don't believe they allow play back of both formats. BUT you shoot in NTSC, which will work fine in just about every standalone PAL dvd player ever created!

Hope this helps...

-Stu

ps I liked your tribute page Fulcilives

[victoriabears]

Simple = 99% of uk dvd players play ntsc dvd's, no dvd you make yourself is region coded, burners/dvd recorders do not place a region on the disc.

[Cornucopia]

Since I send DVD's to Europe occasionally, I know that it's not as universal as you would think. I'm guessing ~85% compatible with NTSC-sourced titles.

And you're completely WRONG with the whole region-coding thing.

There's REGION coding, there's FORMAT, and there's COPY-PROTECTION (like CGMS, CSS encryption & MACROVISION).

A. All disc types (Pressed DVDs, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM) can be region coded to Regions 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and/or any combinations of those--OR NOT at all.

B. All disc types (Pressed DVDs, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM) can have NTSC or PAL (but not both on the same side of a disc unless you're real good at keeping their VTSes separate).

C. ONLY pressed DVDs can have one or more of the above copy-protections added (but it's not mandatory). The recordables/rewritables can have a form of copy-protection called CPRM, sometimes (but it's not usually something that the author has any control over--it really a DVD recorder thing).

So pick your choice from column A, your choice from column B and your choice from column C.

Scott

[victoriabears]

I have no idea why you think anyone would region format/code whatever a burnt DVD, and as many times on this forum it has been stated you cannot copy protect a burnt dvd, pressed ones are not what I am referring to at all.

[Cornucopia]

I have clients that, while I TRY and TRY to explain to them NOT to region-code for foreign release, they want it that way anyway. Just got it in their head that it somehow "separates" the disc types. So I do it for them.

Otherwise, I don't get paid. (Plus, I get a little more by making a few different versions)

You'd do the same.

BTW, CPRM is a type of recordable copy protection.
And, if Blockbuster and Walmart and Hollywood get their way, you be able to buy downloadable DVD-Rs that DO have copy-protection.
My guess is that it's a slight modification of the old DVD-R (A) format, and will only be available at licensed "downloading" stores.

Scott

>>>>>>>>>
edit: CPRM stands for "Copy Protection for Recordable Media"

[Biel]

A list of which countries use which system can be found here:-
http://www.scotland-info.co.uk/video-formats.htm

Please, be careful when posting lists like that one. That list isn't correct. At least when it comes to DVD releases.

I live in Brazil and the TV signal is PAL alright. But every DVD and VHS you get in videostores are NTSC. I have no idea why, but that's the way it is.
Most TV sets support both systems, but most DVD Players don't.

I believe there are some other countries with the same problem.