TIP: Don't dump DV tapes for DVD backups instead

[ArthurDaley]

Once I had converted my DV collection from tape to DV files on the PC, I made DVD data backups of them all. I then recorded over the DV tapes. I thought it was a good idea since DVDs are cheaper than tapes and tapes are analogue and by recording over them I would not need to buy more tapes.

But now a year on, a high percentage of the DVDs have CRC errors even though different high quality media (TY) and burners were used. (note I never ticked CRC check in Nero and should have done when burning)

Now I see the point to keeping and buying new DV tapes!

[spanky123]

What does CRC check do ?

[somebodeez]

I always keep my DV tapes plus after I've authored DVDs, I make and keep ISOs of them on external harddrives along with text files listing what is in the ISOs.

Edit: And I never burn anything but data discs with Nero.
I use ImgBurn for my video DVDs.

[spanky123]

What's wrong with using Nero to burn dvd-video files ?
Isn't that just the same as burning data files to dvd discs ?

[somebodeez]

I don't know how true this is -
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1636044&highlight=nero+burning+dvds#1636044

but in any case, I feel more comfortable using a program that was created specifically just for DVD burning.

[jmkeuning]

When I burn DVDs for archival purposes (which is all I do) I always create a PAR set for the files. You can create whatever size file set you want, I usually go for 10%. Here's why:

When I have gotten CRC errors, I cannot even copy the data from the disc onto the PC. Windows hits the error and just stops copying. With IsoBuster you can create an ISO, ignoring CRC errors, then extract the data from the ISO. Now you have all the data on your HDD, including the data that was on the damaged sectors.

Using the Par files you can check for errors, and then repair the errors, leaving you with perfect files. Creating a 10% par set means that up to 10% of your data can be damaged, or totally missing, and you can still repair the files!

[thecoalman]

I keep the tapes and the DV files on external drives, two copies on fairly reliable mediums and I still don't feel safe.

I had started to use DVD backups but at less than 20 minutes per disc was impractical and as you have suggested not very reliable.

[jmkeuning]

Don't even ask your self what happens when someone breaks into your house and steals the PC or the DVDs. Then it's all gone.

[thecoalman]

Unless of course you have the tapes and external drives stored in seperate locations. I'd even store them in a third location if it was practical but the file sizes and cost of doing so pretty much cuts out that option.

[DereX888]

Submit your valuable tapes to Library of Congress They ought to be safe there for any foreseeable future... oh wait, they don't allow there those Auntie's Birthdays that you want to preserve so eagerly for future generations

[FulciLives]

I don't use NERO for DVD Video burning.

I did try.

First DVD didn't work ... second DVD didn't work.

I stopped using NERO.

I used DVD Decrypter ... no issues.

Now I use ImgBurn (the successor to DVD Decrypter) and it is without-a-doubt the absolute best DVD Video burning program out there.

In fact if you use ImgBurn to create an ISO IMAGE FILE first then burn it with ImgBurn ... well that is all you need. You no longer have to create the ISO IMAGE FILE with PgcEdit although for Dual Layer DVD Videos discs I have heard that using PgcEdit is still advisable but this is not needed with Single Layer DVD Video discs and it probably is debatable if you really need PgcEdit first for Dual Layer DVD Video discs.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[somebodeez]

When I burn DVDs for archival purposes (which is all I do) I always create a PAR set for the files...

...Using the Par files you can check for errors, and then repair the errors, leaving you with perfect files. Creating a 10% par set means that up to 10% of your data can be damaged, or totally missing, and you can still repair the files!

What a great idea! 8)

[DereX888]

When I burn DVDs for archival purposes (which is all I do) I always create a PAR set for the files...

...Using the Par files you can check for errors, and then repair the errors, leaving you with perfect files. Creating a 10% par set means that up to 10% of your data can be damaged, or totally missing, and you can still repair the files!

What a great idea! 8)

yes it is, indeed!

[spanky123]

How would you go about creating one of those PAR things ? And how long does it take ?

Also, do HDD become damaged/unreadable after a few years if you don't use them ? I'm thinking of backing up all my files (video, music, other data . . ) to HDD (internal or external) and just storing them in a safe place

[DereX888]

Just use any modern archiving software (probably anything will do but crappy winzip or microsoft's built-in zip archiving feature) and select creation of recovery files in its options.
I.e. try winrar

[jmkeuning]

Download and install Quickpar; it's free.

Run the program.

Add or Drag and Drop all your files.

Hit create.

Time depends on how big your fileset is and how big your par set is (and PC speed). I recommend 10%.

You DO NOT NEED TO USE ARCHIVING SOFTWARE.

[thecoalman]

Also, do HDD become damaged/unreadable after a few years if you don't use them ?

It's possible for any drive to fail or become corrupt even a brand new one, as always multiple backups is the best option. I would think that inactivity would extend the life of a drive but I'm no expert. As a last resort data can be recovered even from inoperable drives providing the drive hasn't been physically damaged but you are talking about some heavy duty fees.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I recommend 10%.

Surely you should use 100% redundancy if you want to absolutely guarantee full recovery? Choosing 10% is a crap-shoot - you might as well not bother.

Even then you are still putting all your eggs in one basket.

Better to create multiple, physically separate copies and store them in different locations.

Also, QuickPar uses Reed-Solomon error correction. So does the DV specification:

The DV audio and video each have their own inner- and outer- error correction codes.

So, why go to all the trouble of copying the DV data onto a computer (which strips away all the error correction that is on the tape), applying a similar (but less optimal) error correction scheme and storing on other medium?

For archiving DV material, use the DV media!

[andie41]

For archiving DV material, use the DV media!

Good suggestion, if your originals are DV - mine are standard 8 and Hi-8 tapes and are showing significant deterioration, with many dropouts. Also finding devices to play these Hi-8 tapes is becoming increasing difficult and expensive. I have three Hi-8 camcorders, only one of which is working, and the other two require repairs estimated at $350.00 and up for each.

The idea of using par files is interesting. If I made pars of a DVD (20% redundancy) and in the future encountered errors with this DVD, what is the liklihood of actually repairing this DVD? The files would need to be copied to the computer and I can see that there shouldn't be a problem if a bup of ifo was damaged, but what about a 1 GB vob? If the vob was damaged, you would still need to be able to copy a large part of it to the computer, in order to utilize as many good blocks as possible. Is this possible, or more importantly, likely?

[overloaded_ide]

Keep the tapes!

Properly stored they should last for many many years, it's been proven already BETA tapes last for decades! I still have them!!
VHS from 70's ya I got those too.
I have 8 track tapes that work, 60's 70's?.
Tons of cassettes still that work.
VHS-C Baby movies of my almost 16 year old daughter!

OK, many are not perfect new quality tapes, but hey it's better than nothing at all right!!!
And many of those tapes of all types still play like new! Some were cared for better than others.

I never had a hard drive last 40 years yet, consumer hard drives have not even been on the market that long, gee how many have I gone through since around 1988???

CD-R? not been around that long!
DVD R been around even less time.
Do people ever had them fail, YES, we hear about it all the time for whatever reason!

I have had CD-R go bad, crap media, what was the CLAIMED life? 100years? Course that was cheap crap disks I got almost free and put disposible content on like party music for a few uses.

Anyway the point is, tapes are proven to last decades in real life use and proper storage, no other media has real life proof of age because it simply has not been here that long yet. It's all just geussing!

STUDIES and LAB TESTING is useless data that means nothing in real life, like the 50mpg car that after you buy it only gets 42mpg no matter what you do. Ya, studies and controlled testing claims 50mpg on the sticker, but real life you will never see it!

Already some people have various disks supposedly dying, cheap crap brands? Maybe, but still what was the life claim? And just how old were the DVD R disks that died?

So basically make the best backups you can for important stuff on several medias for storage, but never trash the original tapes or such. Because when you cannot read a disk, or a hard drive 3.5 years old dies, those tapes will work if you have a player for them or can borrow one!

And no a hard drive does not actually last longer if not used, it's going to die when it dies, and no telling when. I have a 120 gig right now, 3.5years old that was seldom used. Last time used was many months ago and it worked perfect. Now no computer I put it in even sees it's connected. It just died while stored and was barely used. On the other hand, I just lost a partion on one of my larger drives I use all the time. Don't know why, just one day I tried to watch a movie and I found Windows telling me the drive is not formatted! So I cannot get to any files that were on that drive no matter how I try. Mostly only DVD backups so I'll just reformat the drive, no big deal, but when they go they go and it does not matter if used or stored!

[DereX888]

I know there is a way to store 1s & 0s on a wax cylinder, I have no doubt its possible.
I think the only problem is to find cylinder long enough to hold equivalent of a DVD

[zoobie]

with HDD's prices now starting at $29 up, you should be able to store at least 20 hours of DV on a large one...40 hours on a huge one, and 60 hours on a gigantic one

[jmkeuning]

I recommend 10%.

Surely you should use 100% redundancy if you want to absolutely guarantee full recovery? Choosing 10% is a crap-shoot - you might as well not bother.

The point is that you are trying to avoid or fix CRC errors. It's not a crap shoot because you are not just protecting a specific 10% of the data. The PAR files is an algorithm that will protect any 10% that gets messed up. So go with 25%...whatever. Most CRC errors that I have had have been very very small - but can render a disc unrecoverable.

[DereX888]

I recommend 10%.

Surely you should use 100% redundancy if you want to absolutely guarantee full recovery? Choosing 10% is a crap-shoot - you might as well not bother.

The point is that you are trying to avoid or fix CRC errors. It's not a crap shoot because you are not just protecting a specific 10% of the data. The PAR files is an algorithm that will protect any 10% that gets messed up. So go with 25%...whatever. Most CRC errors that I have had have been very very small - but can render a disc unrecoverable.

JohnnyMalaria, if you need to make 100% you might as well make second copy instead
IMHO 10% is already too much, I'd go with 5%, since obviously if your data craps out in excess of 5% it probably is all junk at all, and not even 10% PAR will recover erroneus part(s)...

[ronnylov]

I use 30 %. This way I fill 4 DVD-R with 60 minutes of DV. Without the PAR2 files I still need 3 discs and there's no much extra space for the PAR2 files so I think better fill an extra disc with error correction because I would still need 4 discs if I add them.

I do also store the original DV tapes and make DV tapes of edited videos and keep them on an external hard drive.

[TBoneit]

Of course a hard drive can go bad sitting. Ever heard of stiction for example? Or think of bearings that haven't been used in a while, maybe the lubricant gummed up a bit. Those motors that spin the platters aren't that strong.


Another reason a drive may be unusable..... No harware support for it. I have a couple of old mfm 20 meg drives in the basement. No controller card and cables. power cable is still standard but the two ribbon cables per drive. Or I think I cleaned out some old CP/M discs of programs in the last attic cleaning. TRS-Dos discs too.... Or the even older computer starage media that those of us that couldn't afford floppy drives used, Tape.

Or My brother just asked me to see how he can retreive recipes from floppys...
Now I just need to find a PFS Write to Word(pad) or text conversion that is free. Those program discs went missing years ago when he moved. And yes I had suggested they use Word or a more popular at least program than the PFS series but his wife liked it because she found it easy.

Cheers

[rkgibbons]

I still have two working TRS-80's, one with hard-drives, so if you ever need to recover that data, just send them my way!!

As for PAR files, be sure to save a copy of the PAR utility on the disc with it. In a few years, you may not be able to find PAR anymore (it's relatively obscure even now).

[JohnnyMalaria]

JohnnyMalaria, if you need to make 100% you might as well make second copy instead

That's where I was coming from. The best way to minimize loss is to have a physically separate copy, in a physically separate location.

[TBoneit]

I still have two working TRS-80's, one with hard-drives, so if you ever need to recover that data, just send them my way!!

As for PAR files, be sure to save a copy of the PAR utility on the disc with it. In a few years, you may not be able to find PAR anymore (it's relatively obscure even now).

Thanks for the offer, However I still have a 4P in the basement that I kept a full set of discs for.

I still have 5.25" floppy drives in my home windows computers and in 1 here at work.

In fact I just used the one here at work this week to transfer some data to a CDRom. Last fall we sold of 3 ten packs of 1.2 meg floppy disks to a customer.


I'll second the keep a copy of the par program and others that might be needed to use the files. If my brother hadn't thrown away his old PFS series discs I wouldn't be looking to see how to convert them now. I would just throw a copy of Win95 on a old computer, install the PFS programs and go from there. Probably even cut and paste would work for text.
I have used the Par utility and it works fine for recovering data.