AVI files CAN'T be same in quality as ENCODED DVD mpeg (.m2v)????

[stifa]

Well, I have tested my Sony HC46 and captured results to AVI using either Premiere 1.5 or Sony Vegas 6 and it seems OK when played as an AVI ...BUT..
When I encode it to mpeg2(DVD .m2v ) using VEGAS(mainconcept) or TMPGEnc Plus and play it again ( in POWER DVD5) result seems to have lost :
A bit of sharpness and MOTION FLUIDITY which is annoying because AVI file seemed so fluent and pleasant to your eyes when you move camera rapidly (seems as it has 50 fps instead of 25) , but not so with MPEG result...
Also I can see ripples and fuzzy lines on edges of objects in some other players like BSplayer

Am I doing somethin wrong here>?
Just want best of my 400$ camera and so far it ...well...not so good.

My softwre is Adobe Premiere 1.5
Sony Vegas 6
TMPGenc Plus
Adobe Encore
Sony DVD Architect
Main Concept DV codec (Installed)
What should I use for capture and what for encoding to get "same as AVI" (BEST)results???

HELP Please.
Marko

[guns1inger]

I prefer ProCoder, but can get very good results out of mainconcept (Vegas version). Makes ure you have the bitrate set correctly. The defaults in the templates are, IMO, too low in most cases.

Don't worry about the 'fuzzy lines' - these are normal interlacing and won't be seen on your TV.

[sorinicu]

Anyway the MPEG2 signal (DVD) is a lower quality than the one on the DV because is compressed more. Fast moving scenes will be seen better on the original DV file (avi) because of the compression quality loss of MPEG2 (spatial and temporal).
Anyway for my home videos converted to DVD I choose the highest bitrate possible not the standard one. That gives me just 1hour video per DVD single side (standard is 2hours), but better quality.

[guns1inger]

Well encoded DV should be visually indistinguishable from the originals. Compressions levels are part of the equation, compression algorythms are part of the equation, source is part of the equation.

[sorinicu]

There is no "encoded DV". The transfer from the tape to the HDD is in fact a COPY operation (from tape in a .avi file) - no "conversion" is done.

Transcoding that .avi file in MPEG2 is done by compressing further the signal, that's why the quality is not the same.

[guns1inger]

Let me rephrase then. DV that is well encoded to mpeg2 should be visually indistinguishable from the originals. If you are seeing major noticeable differences then you are doing something wrong.

[SaSi]

The quality degradation issue has been long discussed and it appears that the issue is still misunderstood. Every different codec technology can encode without any visible quality loss. Some codecs are lossless and therefore one doesn't have to worry about settings and optimization, other codecs are lossless and therefore the wrong settings can destroy the image quality.

The DV Codec is lossless and therefore while editing within the DV domain of the AVI file, one doesn't lose image quality.

The MPEG-2 encoding is a lossy algorithm, and the amount of loss is determined by several factors, most important of which is the bitrate. An MPEG2 encoded video file with a constant bitrate of 8MBPS will show negligible quality loss. But this will only allow 1 hour of video to fit on a single layer DVDR. Decreasing the bitrate to half of that, one can fit 2 hours, but lose quality.

In order to achieve the best of both worlds, all decent MPEG encoders allow the selection of single and multi pass encoding, in which the bitrate can become variable instead of constant. In such encoding scenarios, the encoder will evaluate the content and allocate a higher bitrate for demanding scenes and a lower one for less demanding scenes (scenes with less motion and less chromatic variance).

A good starting point is to select 2 passes with an average bitrate of 6Mbps. Instead, calculate the bitrate according to your needs. For example, to fit a 2 hour video on a single layer DVD, you need to select 4Mbps as average.

The lower the bitrate, the more one needs a good encoder and a good selection of settings (i.e. quantization matrix, softening filter, etc).

Finally, it must be said that the MPEG2 encoding algorithm is not state of the art technology and that it cannot effectively encode high definition camcorder feeds without any loss of sharpness (unless one accepts to work with dual layer DVDs and encode at the max 8MBPS for video).

[sorinicu]

...Finally, it must be said that the MPEG2 encoding algorithm is not state of the art technology and that it cannot effectively encode high definition camcorder feeds without any loss of sharpness (unless one accepts to work with dual layer DVDs and encode at the max 8MBPS for video).

That was exactly my point. All my home-videos from DV are encoded MPEG2 at 8MB/s to avoid visible quality loss on a regular 20" TV screen - 1 hour per DVD (is convenient in this case since I am using 1 hr tapes).

[guns1inger]

DV is not lossless either. It discards certain colour information as part of the compression algorithm. Good implementations of the codec - for example Sony - can be very robust, and go several generations before visible issues appear. Other versions, such as the default microsoft DV codec, are poor from generation one. Neither is DV high definition.

[jagabo]

Loss of motion fluidity indicates a field order problem. Loss of sharpness may indicate the video was deinterlaced. Ripples and fuzzy lines on edges of objects may indicate the interlaced video was resized improperly.

[gshelley61]

Hand held camcorder footage (DV or analog) should always be converted to MPEG2 (DVD) at a high bitrate setting. Don't try to fit more than one hour of this type of footage on a single sided DVD. The near constant motion of hand held camcorder footage requires a high encoding bitrate, otherwise you will wind up with noticeable MPEG2 artifacts.

If you are using a standalone DVD recorder to convert your camcorder videos to DVD, just set it to the highest quality level and the result should look virtually identical to the source. If you are using a computer based software or hardware MPEG encoder, set the average bitrate high enough so as not to exceed one hour per finished DVD (single sided).

[stifa]

WELL,
Settings that I use are VBR 8000max, lower field first, no deinterlace, didn't use 2Pass yet...
They are MainConcept default ones and are described in DennisVogel.html file on camcorderinfo.com

I guess it has something 2 do with my machine but that is a guess... I use Athlon 2600 512ram and guess it should be no problem to output coded mpeg files ...
I use POWER DVD to play.
Problem, again is no longer lines on edges and fuzzyness (that is interlace issue solved by playing in PowerDVD noninterlaced player) BUT... annoying thing is that when there is fast movement with camera it is perfectly OK to watch it but when played as ENCODED MPEG it kind of hurts your eyes and you get that feel of lower framerate...
To put it in one sentence difference is like playing same game on Athlon 64 and Athlon 2600
on first it is fluid and fast , and on second is not meeting requirements and thus lower framerate and worse gameplay...That is my problem...my eyes cant focus well on that and is not cool to watch...

Any ideas?

[pijetro]

Stifice....
Give all your Project settings, source settings and export settings (Premiere user talking of course)...

I use POWER DVD to play.

Since it has an internal deinterlacer built in, you won't true playback representation..
The best is to do a test run on your DVD player, and watch it on the television...

Editing:
When you drop the clip on the Premiere timeline, is there a red line above the clip??

Encoding:
VBR isn't necessary at those high bitrates..
One pass CBR @ 8000kbps should be sufficient.

[stifa]

Stifica? xexe
Well,

Settings that I use in Premiere are Default since I am newbie to this..
I capture(transfer) video, drag&drop it to timeline window and go to EXPORT > Encoder ...
Premiere is a bit confusing for me now ...I seem to get separate video and audio files when it completes rendering and not ONE?
Anyhow I am willing to learn Premiere if it solves my drama.. Currently > Vegas/TMPEG

I reinstalled whole XP with latest upd./drivers and will post if this helped.
I wil see then if there is a red line in timeline window...

Anyhow problem remains...
WHAT OTHER CODECS / DRIVERS ARE YOU PEOPLE USING FOR PLAYBACK AND VIDEO GENERAL ON YOUR COMPUTER, DO I NEED TO INSTALL SOMETHING THAT MAY IMPROVE PLAYBACK IF "PLAYBACK" IS THE PROBLEM INSTEAD OF BAD ENCODING?

THANKYA AGAIN

[pijetro]

Settings that I use in Premiere are Default

Would that be PAL DV standard 48khz??

I capture(transfer) video

You transfer, since the DV tape is already digital...

EXPORT > Encoder ...
Premiere is a bit confusing for me now

I'm assuming you're exporting for DVD purposed..Check the forums indexes on the top of the page, and learn about proper encoding..
Your raw clips (.AVI) are like water. Your output clip (.m2v video stream and .wav/.ac3/.mp2 audio stream) is like ice..You're converting from one to another. Fortunately the structure of the Mpeg stream (.m2v+audio merged) allows for interlaced playback..Same as the original source..

Whether u use Mainconcept, CCE, or Tmpgenc to encode the .AVI to Mpeg, the functions and values are similair..Learn how to encode, and what those values are, then you'll be able to jump from software to software...

WHAT OTHER CODECS / DRIVERS ARE YOU PEOPLE USING FOR PLAYBACK

For people like you who capture DV, then the default codecs within the editor are fine..
As far as playback of your Mpeg file, use WinDVD or PowerDVD..It has a built in Mpeg Decoder..Although it deinterlaces while viewing, this is necessary, since the original source is deinterlaced, and the monitor playing back your Mpeg is progressive...

Fortunately (as mentioned previously), all this gets corrected on a normal television set, since DVD supports interlacing....

Ciao...!!!xaxa!!!

[stifa]

Well, reinstalling XP didn't help...

I spent last day encoding one file in VEGAS/Mainconcept with various settings...20 encodings of 1.5GB file and none of them solved that non-fluidity in motion.

Vegas 6.0:
PAL DV Widescreen 25fps
full-res. quiality :BEST
MotionBlurType:GAUSSIAN
Deinterlace method: Blend Fields or NONE

MainConcept(within Vegas): Template - DV Pal widescreen
interlaced,bottom field first
OUTPUT type : DVD
Profile: Main profile , Level:Main level
insert sequence header before every GOP
VBR: max-8 000.000 , avg.-6 000.000 , min-192.000

other advanced options are default...

When I drag & drop imported .AVI file in timeline window Deinterlace Method in Project properties goes to "Blend fields" is that OK?
What motion Blur type should be used?

TMPEGEnc is totaly crazy because wether I choose 4:3 or 16:9 it chooses what it wants and not very good as picture is streched...so long..BTW encoding in this program didnt solve motion fluidity either and I find MainConcept results better IMO.

IF .AVI file is playbacked OK ( in PowerDVD) , SHOULD I EXPECT NEAR THE SAME RESULTS WITH CODED MPEG2?

AGONY...
Thanks again

[jagabo]

You do not want to deinterlace or motion blur. Leave the video interlaced and burn to DVD as interlaced. Don't worry about what you see (interlace comb artifacts and aspect ratio problems) on the computer monitor. Deinterlacing is responsible for your motion fluidity loss.

TMPGEnc will maintain the aspect ratio if you have the settings right. If you have an anamorphic 16:9 PAL DV AVI file and want an anamorphic 16:9 MPEG2 DVD file use the following settings in TMPGEnc:

On the Setting -> Advanced tab set the Source Aspect Ratio to 16:9 625 line PAL, Video Arrange Method to Full Screen. On the Video tab set Aspect Ratio to 16:9.

[pijetro]

Your source clips are not widescreen...Therefore, try and keep the project settings as standard 4:3 (.9x pixel aspect ratio) within Premiere (or Vegas i can guess)..
Premiere will try and conform your original video to widesreen, and it will look terrible..
Same with your export to DVD settings. Stay away from widescreen, unless you know what you're doing..

Jagabo is correct, but unfortunately, your source is from a video camera...

[jagabo]

Your source clips are not widescreen...

How do you know? Did I miss something? The camcorder he is using supports 16:9.

[pijetro]

Doing a quick google search on the product, i didn't see anything that supported Anamorphic widescreen..Rather a quasi-widescreen.
Seeing other specs and stripped away features, i would assume anamorphic widescreen to be non-existant..
Strictly an estimated guess..Sorry Jagabo..

Ironically, the specs show only NTSC versions..Didn't see any PAL models...

[Scorpion King]

I think I've got it.

It's like those interlace lines are crouse, rough, more than normal jagged, nasty looking. The motion is blurred and jagged, jumping, etc. Hard to explain but easy to notice when played.

I did a very simple capture test using ffdshow's DV codec. The captured DV avi file looked good. The interlaced lines were fine, the motion was fluid. I then did a Tmpgenc DVD Template encode and I couldn't believe what it looked like. My MPEG2 file looked like what I explained above, terrible. (ffdshow's DV decoder enabled)

I loaded the ffdshow DV avi captured original file in VirtualDub and did a quick conversions to Huffyuv compression, then encoded that in Tmpgenc using that same DVD Template and guess what..... it looked great.

My theory. Piece of crap DV codec/decoder. Get a good one and your problem should be solved.

----- or ------

I'm wrong and I will now shut-up

Good luck.

[stifa]

WELL, THANKS TO EVERY ONE OF YOU TRYING TO HELP ME SOLVE MY PROBLEM, I REALLY APPRECIATE IT...

As far as the story goes...

I rendered some of the files choosing no deINTERLACING and it didnt help.
Camera is not true 16:9 but it has "wide mode" whatever that means...but...problem remains on 4:3 also..


OOPS!!! IT SEEMS ONE CANNOT TURN OFF MOTION BLUR IN VEGAS project?? WHY?

And if that doesnt help I will render short version and throw it on the Net and you can all see and tell me is it ok on your machine ...

Scorpion King,
I will try ffdshow and that other thing you said, but may I say that problems were there before installing MAINCONCEPT DV codec (which seems to be of better ones) and now it stays with the codec, so that may not be the issue... but heck...I will try it
Opinnions?

Thankya again and hope well all get together and get drunk sometime
Peace

[Scorpion King]

I'm not recommending you to use ffdshow because I would imagine MainConcept if far better. But then again I don't know. I haven't tested them. ok.

Here is another experiment. After writing my post last night I thought it is probably wrong. I decided today that your problem is field order, not decoder/ VFW decoder or whatever. Heres my test.

This photo represents an extreme blowup of the same area of the same frame of 3 versions of the same video clip.

The one labeled DV AVI is my original captured AVI file (in virtualdub) using ffdshow DV codec. Nothing fancy.

The one labeled TFF is the encoded MPEG2 file using Tmpgenc and its DVD Template. Nothing changed. The program reported TTF (top field first). I checked the field order (in another program) and it verifies TFF.

The one labeled BFF is the encoded MPEG2 file using Tmpgenc and it's DVD Template. Nothing changed except for field order. The program reported BFF. I checked the field order (in another program) and it verifies BFF.

Guess what>. It's not field order, or by my simple test, it doesn't appear to be. lol I thought that maybe the program was switching field order and somehow causing the jerking and ragged interlacing lines.

And, as you can see, Tmpgenc did not change the file that much. So I guess I will now shut up because I don't know.

Good luck.

[jagabo]

Tmpgenc did not change the file that much.

TMPGEnc's field order option doesn't change the video frames at all. The field order is simply a flag in the MPEG file that tells the DVD player which field to display first when sending the video to the TV (you see one field at a time on standard definition TVs).

[stifa]

Thanks for the effort Scorpion King but I figured out field order is not the problem.
I will upload some of the footage soon and will page you all to see it.

In meanwhile suggestions welcome.
Anyone figured how to disable motion blur in Vegas?

Thx

[Edmund Blackadder]

Hi Marko,

I'm publicly replying to your PM,

I have read this thread, and according to what I saw here, I'd say that you need to post those clips on the web. Let's say, first, take about 5 seconds of the original DV AVI clip, and then the same clip encoded by yourself into MPEG2 (using whatever encoder you think doesn't do a good job). Then we will download both of those clips and analize them.

You have to remember that neither PowerDVD nor WinDVD will play MPEG2 clips smoothly, unless you actually burn them as a DVD-Video compilation to a DVD. I don't know why, but it's a fact. So, perhaps you don't really have field-related problems in your final MPEG2 output, and it's just that the software DVD player discards the second field when playing as a file, as opposed to DVD-Video. VLC Player does a great job doing a bob deinterlace filter (it actually recreates full 50p/60p out of 50i/60i material). However, the downside of VLC is that it will only do so on top-field-first MPEG2 files. If you encode them with bottom-field-first, the VLC will play them quite awfully (very jerky). For some reason VLC ignores the field order flags in MPEG2.

Also, you didn't seem to follow the advice of couple of other people, which is to burn it to DVD and play on a standalone DVD player. That will at least tell you for sure if you have fied-related problems.

As for colors and overall quality with the least headache, your best bet is Canopus ProCoder 1.5. After all these years I'm still using it, even though now I mostly work with HDV sources. Still, I downconvert 1080i HDV to lossles 480i/576i AVI (Lagarith codec) in Vegas 6, and then after all the editing I convert to MPEG2 for DVD in ProCoder 1.5. That gives outstanding results.

However, with all the cross-format conversions, especially in Vegas, you have to watch for colorspace. Vegas is not very good at handling it (or, to be more precise - keeping the same color/contrast look as the original file), unless you know exactly what to do. Let's say, after editing, you want to render an original DV file into MainConcept DV AVI. Guess what? Vegas will make it look dull, unless: a) you render into Vegas' own preset for DV (Sony codec I think), or b) you have to apply Color Correction filter's "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" preset in order for it to render back to MainConcept DV properly. It's a pain in the ass, because other codecs have the same issues, so you just have to experiment and see if you need to apply that filter or not. It also may have to go in reverse ("Computer RGB to Studio RGB").

However, if you do have to apply any colorspace conversion filters, do them in Vegas, because other programs (Premiere, ProCoder, etc.), do a pretty bad job converting the subtle gradations (you'll see annoying solarized step-like artifacts in some spots). I think Vegas works at higher color bit lengths, which results in better colorspace conversions.

So, yes, post the clips somewhere and let all of us examine what's wrong (or not).

EB.

[stifa]

Well,
I have tried to burn a DVD and playback on DVD player and it seems OK

Installed Procoder 1.5 and it is far better than MC or TMPG- Thanks Edmund

I have only one more problem and you can see it in CuttingEditing Joining forum...pls

Having problems with upload ...soon
Marko
Peace

[FulciLives]

Having problems with upload ...soon
Marko
Peace

http://www.rapidshare.com/ is a website that will allow you to upload clips that are up to but not more than 100MB in size. It is free!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman