IDE Hardware Problem Or BIOS Or What?

[sfxwe]

Ok, tell me what you guys think about these scenarios here!

1st scenario:

After my kid is done using his computer and walks away, he later comes back to find this message on his monitor:

Reboot and select proper boot device or insert boot media in selected boot device and press a key

(Looks like the computer shut down and restarted and got to this black DOS screen)

2nd scenario:

My kid is playing me in a game of UT and while in the game, his computer starts to stutter and eventually locks up. He then has to shut down and restart!

3rd scenario:

I was trying to duplicate this issue and while in windows xp pro on his computer, I got lucky and got the blue screen of death that said something, which I wrote down, but, in the process of my kid cleaning his room he threw the paper I wrote it on out . While I was writing the message down, the computer eventually shut down and restarted and came up with the same message from scenario number 1 above!

4th scenario:

When we start his computer it goes through the mem checks etc and then does 1 of 3 things:

1. Boots and goes into windows
2. Goes right to the message in scenario 1
3. After Mem test it says something about Primary Disk failed S.M.A.R.T
4. (Remembers guys I have tried 3 other HD’s, me thinks it isn’t a HD)

Might it be an IDE hardware issue, windows software / driver issue? I have tried 2 other hard drives (didn’t fix it), I currently have both the cd rom and dvd drive disconnected as to eliminate the 2nd IDE channel. I have tried different IDE cables and power connectors. I have tried a different power supply. Wonder if it could have a cracked motherboard or if it is getting to hot? What do you guys think?


ASUS P5P800
1 512 Stick Of Memory
Pentium 4 3.0 775 processor
WinXP Pro
Built In Lan
Built In Sound
BFGTech GeForce FX 5500 OC
Sony 17 Monitor

[Wile_E]

In the 1st scenario, losing the settings may be caused by a bad CMOS battery. Have you pulled out the battery and checked it or replaced it? But a bad battery doesn't cause lockups or bluescreens.
2nd scenario - that sounds like a heat issue. Maybe the graphics card, CPU is overheating. The memory may be bad too. Try a different stick. Actually try 2 sticks, because that is a dual-channel board. Usually you have to fill up a bank.

Download Asus PC Probe for your motherboard and check the temps and voltages.
http://support.asus.com/download/download.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=P5P800%20SE

[kschang]

If you got a SMART error, that's an HD error. As scenario 1 pointed to the primary HD being dead, I'd say it's time to look at your primary HD more closely.

[sfxwe]

Ok but I forgot to say, all this started at the same time. So I don't think it is different issues. I think it is one issues causing all the problems. I agree, I too rule out CMOS battery, as this happens at times while windows is running. I think the graphics thing is due to the HD or and IDE problem I really don't think it is a heat issues with the video card, I think the computer was just starting to lock up causing the graphics to start to studder!

I have 6 other computers, 1 of which has the same MB, Processor, the other 1/2 of the memory I bought. So I can swap the memory and CMOS battery and video cards and see if one stops acting up and the other starts to act up.

I really am leaning towards a bad HD I just find it so hard to believe that I have had 3 bad HDs out of other computers that were running fine, but now have errors!

[GKar]

Possible dying power supply?

[jameshgross]

Simple things first. Run a good spyware program and AV scanner.
Get WINASO to cleanup the registry.
Defrag the HD.
Run MEMTEST to check the memory.
Get and run SPEEDFAN to test temp and fans.
I think a little tunning up will fix your problem.
Now if we can just keep the kids off those download sites.

[TBoneit]

SMART is the drive reporting that it is going bad. SMART in built into newer drives to give a warning before you lose everything.

In this case the drive has reported that it failed the SMART at startup. Backup anything you would hate to lose and replace the drive. If you have more than one hard drive t hen you will have to find the one going bad. If one drive out f two on a cable goes bad it can pull down the other drive until it is unhooked.

Go to http://www.passmark.com/products/index.htm and look on the bottom of the page for Disk Checkup and download it and run it against your drive(s) and see what the report says.

Good Luck

[sfxwe]

Ok, lastest update, let me see if I can get this straight now.

1. Pri Master is a WD 100GB SMART HD
2. Sec Master is a Fujitsu 40GB SMART HD

Now, here we go. I can' even get into windows now. I get to the BIOS and it says that the Pri Slave Drive Fujitsu SMART Command Failed. So I figure well hell, I'll go into the BIOS and shut it off and boot to the WD 100 GB Primary and run some test. Well I get into the BIOS and it shows the WD HD as a 4.2 GB HD and has very wierd characters, but the Fujitsu HD looks normal with the correct GB size.

I restart the computer but still no luck it says again:

Reboot and select proper boot device or insert boot media in selected boot device and press a key

So i go into bios and the WD is still messed up, so I physically disconnect the Fujitsu and do a restart but still no luck. So I disconnect the WD and reconnect the Fujitsu and now it says that the Fujitsu is bad and FAILED the SMART command.

So one HD has weird characters in BIOS and reports inccorect size, and the computer won't boot, the other HD test bad at boot up and gives a SMART drive error? What are the chances? Also to answer a post above, the power supply is new. Again BIOS, Battery, Mother Board?

[redwudz]

If your PS is good, and you've tried all the other suggestions, you aren't left with much else but a problem with the motherboard. You could disconnect all drives except the boot, pull all cards except the video card and try that to eliminate outside influences. Reset the BIOS on the MB also.

If no luck, replace the MB.

[Skith]

You might consider trying a LiveCD (something like BartsPE) or one of the linux bootCDs (with an included ntfs file reader, if that is the file system used) to see if you can read anything from the drives. At the very least, you may be able to recover some data.

Can you connect the failing drive(s) to another computer to test (as a slave, non-boot drive)?

I wonder if there is an overheating issue for the hard drives. Do they have active cooling? a case intake fan blowing on them?

How new is the PSU, did you just install it? Is it good quality, or genaric? A cheaply made or failing PSU can cause all sorts of problems.

Have you checked for a BIOS update for the motherboard (don't bother with any updates unless they specifically mention your issues).

Good luck.

[Nelson37]

You have described the Fujitsu as both a Secondary Master and a Primary Slave. It is extremely important to be correct on this description, depending on which is accurate the diagnosis is completely different. The drive is one or the other, but not both.

If it is in fact a Primary Slave, with a SMART error, it could well be causing the Primary Master to fail. The SMART message is not coming from Windows or the PC BIOS, this is directly from the drive itself.

Which is it?

[sfxwe]

Nelson 37

Sorry you are correct.

1. The WD is the Primary Master, the 1st HD on the IDE channel, with jumpers set correctly.
2. The Fujitsu is the Primary Slave, with jumpers set correctly.

I have nothing connected to the secondary IDE right now.


Any suggestions on a good free HD diag program? I am going to take the HDs out and connect them to a firewire box and then hook it up to my other computer and run some test.

[sfxwe]

Also, are there any programs that I can run / loop for like an hour that will kinda like stress test the video / hd / processor. Something like 3DMark, or Auquamark, but instead of it running for just minutes I would be able to have it run for an hour to see what happens! I want to see if heat or a heavy load will cause something to show up!

Any sugestions?

[Bjs]

Download from fujitsu and wd website's the two utility program's .

One check's smart , the other is "new hd install"

Run the smart utilities ... if no error ...

If report in bios at bootup

1: Try without cdrom connected to pc ... if fixed ... cdrom device had bad control interface .. it happen's
2: Bad battery ... also check battery holder for good connection .
3: Check mother board for any leaking capacitor's (those metal can's)
4: Clean pci , agp , memmory slot's ... install only those required

Any discolouring , leaking , blown out ... brown mark on top indicate a serious problem .

Reported in os

In xp ... can be false report ... triggered by low / high voltage feed to drive / s ... test psu .

Msi / gigabyte have a utility ... an overclocking program ... good for keeping an eye on power input's ... damn that siren ... frieghtened that crap out of my niece ... low cpu core voltage reported ... psu went bad .

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Best to preform these test's on secondary pc ... just incase issue is with the mother board on original pc .

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Those jibberish character's sound's as though the partition table info (mbr) , has been lost ... or corrupted .
Recover is only possible if mbr had been backed up ... or you are a freak , and are willing to edit mbr to fix it .

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Download drive rescue ... read it's readme ... only aim it at your drive's ... not the drive on pc used for recovery .
Simple to use and recover important data ...

It will also recover file's from lost partition's .

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Run the new install utility for the wd unit ... from here you can see the partition's available .

Having tested these utilities before ... using these tool's to partition / preformat the drive to use under any os will run cooler .

Having tested these against the xp prep tool ... xp preformatted / partitioned drive's run hotter than expected ... esspecially for maxtor's ... hot enough you wouldnt hold it in your hand for to long .

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Should wd tool report no issue , use the wd new install diskette to partition and format the drive for your chosen os .

Use fujitsu diskette's in the same manner for the fujitsu drive .

========================

Sound's as though the issue is the motherboard ... bad flash maybe ... as some of these new system's update there bios without user input .

Rule : If it work's , dont do it ... disable this thing in bios , and dont install the motherboard utitlity ... you may be asking for trouble .

========================

Game's :

Read the faq's that came with game and check pc meet's all requirement's .
They also list problem's and fix's .

make sure audio and video hardware are running the latest driver's .

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Make sure all none essential task's running in the background have been killed off ... before running the game .

Press ctrl + alt + del , bring's up task manager .

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If you have adsl ... consider turning the modem off while running the game .

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Some game's get very busy in the graphic's department and close , and return user to desktop ... bit like a crash .

If this is causing problem's ... check video card temp under nomal use ... and again , after running the game dor a few minute's .

Some card's if not most , now come prefitted with heatsink and fan .

Check fan is clear of dust ball's , and running .

Faulty heatsink compound is a difficult problem to fix without the right equipment ... the compound used is different to that used with cpu's as it bond's the heatsink to the gpu like glue ... removal need's to be carefull or damage can result .

Getting the fan's replaced is another problem ... consider after market unit .

It may also be cheaper in the long run to get a replacement card ...

Provided there is nothing wrong with the power running through to the agp slot ... an msn bootcode appeared two year's ago , and caused pc's to shut down ... under test's , it was found the gpu was running far to hot ... motherboard was replaced ... it damaged the apic controller on the motherboard's .

It's why I dont use rotten msn messenger .

=========================

If the wd unit is a "BB" series ... they were junk .

I had an 80gig unit , installed it ... and the bios took forever to enter ... the drive after partitioning and formatting also had issue's with transfering large file's ... copy for 10 second's then pause for 1 minute .

The drive also made noise's when not accessed like a very light grinding noise ... there be day's when there was no noise too ... and other's when the same noise came on at different time's with no access .

Turned out there had been a screw up with the screw's holding the platter security ring had not been tightened to the same spec's .

It's the one shown in my drive recovery guide here in the guide's section .

[TBoneit]

One other thing to check on the Western Digital Drive. They are slightly different than other brands.

With other brands Master and Single are usuall the same setting.

Western Digital, WDC hereafter are different lokking at the back you should see 6 sets of pins. The one nearest the power connector is CS (Cable select), The next one over is Slave and the middle one is Master.

For WDC drives alone on the cable put it on the end and try both CS setting and with no other drives attached to the cable also try no jumper and see if the gibberish chracters in the Bios disappear either way.

Sometimes WDC drives can go funny about settings and need to beb set CS or Master or no jumpers when alone on the cable. I've got one at work that has to be jumpered to slave when in slave position or no jumpers as master on cable with no other drives, The proper postion of cable select doesn't work.

It is a 100Gb that also has developed a bit of a whine when running so I only use it to back up and restore data and then unhook it til it is needed again. It always works it has just developed that WDC jumper pickiness.

I have seen the Bios show gibberish characters and misreport form bad jumpering or a bad drive on the same cable. The bios is a funny thing I've also seen the same problem when a customer installed two drives both set as master.

Check carefully

Good Luck
Roger

[redwudz]

For stress tests of the CPU, it's hard to beat a long encode with 100% CPU usage. For the video card and the sound, the easiest may be to playback a video at the highest data rates the cards can handle. Or maybe one of the newer games?

[Nelson37]

Seperate those two drives!!!

You have two devices sharing the same data channel. One possibly defective. Actually, that SMART msg is damn-near dead certain that drive is physically defective. No question there is something seriously wrong. ANY test made with that drive in the loop in any way can not verify other devices. REMOVE THE FUJITSU!!!

Test both drives individually, preferably in other systems, as single Secondary Master with a completely seperate boot drive. You may have a power supply or IDE controller issue in the original PC that is destroying drives. The Fujitsu may be pulling too much power due to some defect. It could also screw up the traffic to the second drive on the same cable.

[sfxwe]

Update:

1st thanks for the tips, really, I do appreciate the info!

Ok, I will post a follow up later when I get my replacement video card, but here is what I have come up with so far.

1. 1 Dead Fujitsu HD - Which explains the no boot and the weird errors for both drives
2. 1 Bad Video Card - Which explains the video / game suttering and lock ups

I thought by testing the HD's with the power cable disconnect from the Fujitsu was in some way ok, which I knew it wasn't and why I left it in was beyond me. Anyways once I removed the power and the IDE cable, I got the correct and final results that showed the Fujitsu was indeed a dead player!

I was a little disappointed in myself as I knew better than to leave the IDE cable in when testing, any HD combo's, but I guessed I just spaced it off. I could have saved my self a lot of frustration, O"well......

I'll let you guys know how it turns out when I get my new video card in the mail and get it together.

[kschang]

Actually, the dead/dying HD would cause the video / game stuttering and lockup as well.

Stuttering because the HD's retrying the read, and lockup because the pagefile is getting corrupted.

[Nelson37]

Agree emphatically, the bad HD could have caused these errors, and almost any other conceivable problem. I see no evidence there is a definite problem with your videocard.

In order to test a particular component, you must combine it with other components that are KNOWN to be good. Once a bad component is identified, replace it and run the tests again, starting over with a clean slate. Old results indicate possiblities ONLY, no definite information because the errors could have been caused by the bad drive.

All files from the old hard drive must be considered damaged goods. Data files are generally safe and won't cause any real problems other than possibly not being readable. BUT, any program files, dlls, etc should not be copied from the old drive, these should be re-installed from disk or download. Otherwise you risk chasing your tail with lots of strange issues.

Imagine you made a stew that made you sick. You find out the meat was rancid. Do you take the carrots and potatoes out and re-use them in the new stew? Note that the possibility exists that any remaining unused carrots and potatoes may ALSO be bad, knowing the meat was bad does not tell you anything about the other ingredients, either positive or negative.