Video Viewable 60 years from Now

[Tyler2000]

I'm making a wedding video for a couple in their 20s. I'll be giving them the video on DVD-R and a VHS (just so they can show their grandparents who don't have dvd players). The video will be very important to them and I want them to be able to watch the video 60 years from now. Nobody knows the future, but I'd like to give them the best chance that they can watch their video in some way in the future. What if I gave them a 4gb usb hard drive with the dvd files on it? That way, if USB 2.0 is obsolete, they still might be able to get some adapter to connect to their PC or home entertainment system. If a conversion is needed, assuming the internet is still functional, they could probably download the appropriate software to convert the dvd files to blue-ray or whatever format is needed.

Nobody would really know the answer to this problem, but I just wanted to get some opinions.

Thanks.

[greymalkin]

The video will never be better than the source, so whatever format the source is in is how I would give it to them. If it's dv, then either give them the tapes or put the dv on a hard drive as you mentioned before. They will undoubtedly have to do some type of conversion as the years go by but handing over the source is the best possible thing you can do right now.

[ROF]

All forms of media(including USB) will be invalid in 60 years. Can you find 8 inch floppies anymore? How about 5 inch floppies? Both were standard 20 years ago(1/3 of the lifetime you are looking at). USB, PCI, AGP, 1394, heck ethernet as we know it today were all non-existent back then and some of those are working towards extinction now. If you want to give somebody a video(hard copy media) that will last 60 years and still be able to viewed in a place other than a museum I'd say your chances for success are slim to nil.

[rhegedus]

Get webspace and upload it.

Quite a few hosts are offering unlimited diskspace for less than the cost of a couple of packs of smokes a month.

[oldandinthe way]

I'd recommend flash memory modules like SD cards and a flash capable movie camera to replay it. The media is unlikely to go bad. And a camera kept in a drawer most of the time will probably survive. I have at least 100 old cameras on the shelf and am always encountering more.

Almost any other choice other than a hard disk has strong media crap out worries.

[edDV]

When I do a project for a paying customer (or a pro bono wedding) here is what I recommend.

DV camera tapes are reviewed and usable scenes are transfered back to a fresh MiniDV archive tape and stored. Copies of these tapes are offered to the customer for a charge.

The edit master is saved to a MiniDV archive tape, to DVD media as data and as an authored DVD copy master. Duplicates are offered to the customer for a charge.

When BD/HD DVD format becomes affordable, I will copy all this tape and DVD data to HD/BD DVD media as data for longer term archive.

I intend to copy my project files to each new mass storage format to prevent data rot (~every 5 years).

I'm currently copying all my analog Betacam and Hi8 archives to MiniDV and DVD. Someday I'll get to VHS.

[Cornucopia]

Smart choices. I concur.

Scott

>>>>>>>>
edit: this thread shows the dichotomy that still exists between the CE (consumer electronics) and the PC (computing) businesses, "convergence" notwithstanding.

If you really want something longer-term, create a more "analog" master, which will degrade, but more "gracefully" and will be much more easily readable/playable/decodeable.

[Tyler2000]

Now that I think about it I guess formats don't change too fast to convert to as needed. When blue ray or hd-dvd takes over DVD there should be a lot of ways to convert them over. Then whatever is next should be just as easy.

[Nelson37]

I would avoid any magnetic-based media, these are simply too easy to erase.

As for saving on the Web, you have got to be kidding. These guys are rarely in business more than a few years, much less 60.

Converting media in the future will probably be easy, authoring formats may not. I would recommend at each stage of transfer maintain a copy, (or 2 or 3), in simple MPG format.

Where are all the folks crowing about these 100-yr simulated lifespans for DVD media? I'll bet they would all hesitate to suggest those numbers are accurate when their is dollar value involved.

Here's a plan. Anniversary Updates. Couple comes back every 5, 10, or 20 years, you shoot some additional footage (for which you charge them), update the video with the new sections, and convert to the latest media for free. You could advertise that, for those who purchase the periodic updates, the video is guaranteed for life! Offer discounted service for their children, relatives, etc. Bet you will be able to fit several generations on a Blu-Ray, or Super Whizzo 3000, or whatever is in use by then, assuming you yourself (or one of your clones, or androids) are still around.

[rhegedus]

As for saving on the Web, you have got to be kidding. These guys are rarely in business more than a few years, much less 60.

Yeah, that's why the whole web is crashing down around us..............

[edDV]

I would avoid any magnetic-based media, these are simply too easy to erase. ...

Magnetic is fine for medium term storage ... until 15-25GB/layer DVDR becomes practical.

I refuse to compress my DV format originals any further. My Hi8, analog Betacam and MiniDV will be long term stored as DV format 13.5 GB/hr.

I plan to store VHS as MPeg2 unless it's something special.

[Nelson37]

The collapse of dozens of "dot.coms" was described as just exactly that, a Crash. If you really want to bet on the stability of Internet storage I have some underwater real estate in Florida for you, and also there's this bridge...

In 60 years, what is the liklihood of some sort of powerful electric motor, other magnetic device, malfunction or power surge subjecting the media to a magnetic field sufficient to at least alter it in some way?

The beauty of DVD is the ease of duplication, associated with low cost. Anybody with a PC and DVD drive can do it in minutes, for less than a buck the data is refreshed and storage life starts over at 0. I have encountered exactly one individual with the equipment to copy a DV tape to another without loss, this is just not a common capability among the consumer.

Now the DV tape, if provided to the customer, should last at least until Blu-ray or HDDVD or whatever becomes common, and will provide superior quality video. However this must be balanced by the probability the customer will have the necessary equipment to copy the tape to the new media. Backups are worthless if they never get done.

[rgs_uk]

I don't think that any of the things that have been mentioned will be readable and/or playable 60 years from now, even if the tapes, discs or equipment are kept under ideal conditions.

The thing that will work is if the content is moved to new formats as they come along.

But the real problem is that most people don't think to 'migrate' their content until it is too late. It isn't on their radar. Most can't get organised to do it and the expense of paying for it doesn't seem worthwhile -- until its too late of course. Most have no idea about different formats and won't know until they go to buy a new VHS player and can't get one (or its a specialist item that costs a fortune).

The best thing you can do is give them a letter with the material, explaining that it is up to them and their children to do this in the future and, if they don't, some day they may not be able to watch the video.

Even if you are aware of this, there can be hidden problems waiting. I have transferred all my 8mm and Hi8 camcorder tapes (17 to 3 years old). But hit a snag, as it seems the audio recorded by one of the original cameras (now broken) plays slightly muffled and distorted on other play decks.

I have 1800 home recorded VHS tapes (26 to 1 year old). I have hundreds of 1/4 inch audio tapes and hundreds of audio cassettes. So far all the tape stuff is in top quality condition.

I have reels of Super 8mm film which I am working on transferring to video, but will have to do again once I get HD video equipment. I have 16mm and even a roll of 35mm which is of historical interest. I have about 20,000 35mm negatives.

Look at the silent films. I think about 80% of the material created in those days has been lost. In broadcast TV, 2 inch tapes have become unplayable. Even 20 year old 1 inch tapes are deteriorating. Shows made on 16mm film that are just 20 years old are in danger because the tape splices on the separate magnetic soundtracks are coming apart and leaking goo all over the reels. This is happening to the professionals.

But you have seen nothing so far. There is going to be such a huge loss of material from this digital decade.

[rhegedus]

The collapse of dozens of "dot.coms" was described as just exactly that, a Crash.

Wasn't that more to do with unrealistsic expectations and investment of comapanies that just happened to use the net as their main outlet?

In 60 years, what is the liklihood of some sort of powerful electric motor, other magnetic device, malfunction or power surge subjecting the media to a magnetic field sufficient to at least alter it in some way?

And this won't happen to DV tape or DVDs won't get scratched?

[MOVIEGEEK]

The best advice IMHO is to migrate to whatever the latest media is.I backup all my video to miniDV but the question is will my camcorders still work in 20 years?Backing up to a HD is another solution and might be the most cost efficient way to archive,right now the cost is ~.60USD per GB...the cost for miniDV is ~.70 per GB.As for SD/Flash cards the data is stored on a chip and there's no moving parts(which is good) but will there be readers in 20 years?

[rgs_uk]

I think standard MPEG2 at about the same bitrate as MiniDV (or even lower) gives better quality than MiniDV when backing up Hi8 or VHS. MiniDV has that nasty edge pixellation and standard MPEG2 at the same bitrate doesn't so much.

Of course it depends what your plans are. If you intend editing then MiniDV is easier. However, still some people would say you get better quality by opening an MPEG2 copy of your VHS in VirtualDubMod, converting to high bitrate MJPEG or HuffyUV, doing your editing, then converting back to whatever (MiniDV or MPEG2).

[ozymango]

I have reels of Super 8mm film which I am working on transferring to video, but will have to do again once I get HD video equipment. I have 16mm and even a roll of 35mm which is of historical interest. I have about 20,000 35mm negatives.

And all of these are viewable now, and, if kept in reasonable storage conditions, should last a lot longer than any digital medium you'll find to transfer them to.

So always hang on to your analog masters!

[gumby]

I too have been caught up in the "better get the video off the tape to DVD for longevity issues".
After learning a little more from threads such as this one, I am beginning to fear that the outcome may be far from what I expected.

My take on all this is that even with opinions differing in terms of the life span of the media used, you all agree that it will at some time require resaving(backup) to a more up-to-date system.

That being the case, it seems to me the simplest, least lossy(at the time) medium/process would be the way to go.

As I sit authoring my VHS tapes from years ago the thought runs through my mind. Will anyone pull these out to have another look at them, ever? Would any of the young squirts we are saving them for really take the time to back them up again to up-to-date media??? How many of those young girls really care what happened at their Grand Mother's Wedding so many years ago? LOL

I am beginning to think we are putting too much self importance into archiving most of these memories.

If they last the life of a VHS tape great, then forget worrying about it.
(Naturally, I'm not suggesting this care'less' approach to truly historical items)

By the way.........thanks for starting this thread, great question and super responses, all of them.

Gumby