some basic noob questions about DV capture and interlace phenomena

[roise_r]

hi all, recently i bought a DV camcorder, and started looking for guides about DV caputre, encoding, what is mostly recommended and other related posts... i learned quite a lot during these brief tutorials, but still i have some quite basic questions that i want to get out of the way, before I start downloading all of my minicasettes to DVDs,

1.i bought my camera in USA, this means that it shoots in NTSC format, right? i would like to check that, what is the easiest way to do that... all cameras that record on tape (digital or analog), record interlaced videos...right? so my camera records video in NTSC-interlaced format...?

2.i tried to use different softwares to capture my video (just capture), but it turned out that different programs capture differently, with big differences in quality, thats why i am FORCED to ask the following question:
What software is recommended to use just for capture, no video editing or encoding) i tried some of them and Adobe premiere's capturing tools seems to be quite good

3.when i capture with movie maker's capturing tool and after that i play the raw captured video with classic media player, just after caputre, (before closing movie maker), it will play the video interlaced (the interlace artifacts are clearly visible), and the video it somewhat brighter, very pale, but brighter, the moment i close movie maker, the interlacing will dissappear, and the video will become darker... is there a specific reason for that...?

4.lets see if i got the interlace issue right, at all. interlaced video is the one that each frame contain two fields that show in turn, one after another... and progressive scan videos are made of pure frames, no fields... right?

5.if i am playing video that is interlaced, to a progressive scan display, i would know couse the video would consist interalce artifacts, what about if i play progressive video on interlace based display, how would i know...

6.if my dvd player has a label on in saying that it plays progressive scan does this mean that i should not worry about videos being interlaced or not, couse my player will take care of this automaticly???

7.how do i asure my self that my TV is PAL and DOES NOT support progressive scan...

8.when i start a new project on adobe premiere it will ask me what type of project I want to use:
24P, NTSC and PAL, (NTSC and PAL are reffering to interlaced i assume, couse there is a separate project for 24 progressive)... now if my camera is shooting on NTSC-interlaced and my DVD player supports progressive scan on both NTSC and PAL, and my TV i PAL-interlaced, what project type should i use of the above three...?

9.telecine process is the one that will convert progressive cinema frames to NTSC interlaced frames, ? and IVTC is the process from interlaced NTSC to progressive NTSC?

10.encoding in Divx or Xvid, can i add chater or make menus, like in MPEG2 encoding (DVD format), what about VCD and SVCD, are these any good, i am really having a hard time decideing what type of encoding should i use. quality and size both matter

well, thats it, 10x to those who actualy reached the end, and anyone who wishes to reply...

[FulciLives]

hi all, recently i bought a DV camcorder, and started looking for guides about DV caputre, encoding, what is mostly recommended and other related posts... i learned quite a lot during these brief tutorials, but still i have some quite basic questions that i want to get out of the way, before I start downloading all of my minicasettes to DVDs,

1.i bought my camera in USA, this means that it shoots in NTSC format, right? i would like to check that, what is the easiest way to do that... all cameras that record on tape (digital or analog), record interlaced videos...right? so my camera records video in NTSC-interlaced format...?

Yes. Any USA model DV camcorder wil record interlaced NTSC video at a frame rate of 29.970fps

2.i tried to use different softwares to capture my video (just capture), but it turned out that different programs capture differently, with big differences in quality, thats why i am FORCED to ask the following question:
What software is recommended to use just for capture, no video editing or encoding) i tried some of them and Adobe premiere's capturing tools seems to be quite good

Make sure you capture via FIREWIRE also known as both IEEE 1394 and "i.link". Do not try to capture using USB. The capture program should make no real difference but ScenalyzerLive is one of the best and is fairly cheap. Do keep in mind that you can capture either DV TYPE 1 or DV TYPE 2 and it depends on your needs as to which you want to use. I don't do much DV work myself so I must admit I forget now which is considered the better of the two. Someone else will have to chime in on that.

3.when i capture with movie maker's capturing tool and after that i play the raw captured video with classic media player, just after caputre, (before closing movie maker), it will play the video interlaced (the interlace artifacts are clearly visible), and the video it somewhat brighter, very pale, but brighter, the moment i close movie maker, the interlacing will dissappear, and the video will become darker... is there a specific reason for that...?

I have no idea. It is possible for some media players to de-interlace the video on playback.

4.lets see if i got the interlace issue right, at all. interlaced video is the one that each frame contain two fields that show in turn, one after another... and progressive scan videos are made of pure frames, no fields... right?

That's pretty much it. Just remember that with NTSC a progressive video is 23.976fps whereas NTSC interlaced video is 29.970fps. Also there are two kinds of interlaced NTSC. One is from film based material and can be restored to progressive 23.976fps using a process called IVTC which is short for Inverse Telecine. The other type is "pure interlaced" and cannot be made to be progressive 23.976fps but can be made to be progressive 29.970fps if you de-interlace it ... but you almost never want to de-interlace it.

5.if i am playing video that is interlaced, to a progressive scan display, i would know couse the video would consist interalce artifacts, what about if i play progressive video on interlace based display, how would i know...

A progressive TV will have technology built-in to either perform an IVTC or to deinterlace the video so that it appears normal. Progressive video on a DVD is made to play back on a normal interlaced TV just fine or if you have a progressive TV you put the DVD player into progressive scan mode.

6.if my dvd player has a label on in saying that it plays progressive scan does this mean that i should not worry about videos being interlaced or not, couse my player will take care of this automaticly???

For the most part you never want to put your DVD player into progressive scan mode unless you know the video is progressive video. Otherwise it is better to keep the player in normal non-progressive mode and let the TV handle it. The one exception would be if you have a very high end DVD player with an exceptional deinterlacing chipset such as the DCDi Faroudja chipset. Very few model DVD players have that though.

7.how do i asure my self that my TV is PAL and DOES NOT support progressive scan...

Huh? This makes no sense???

8.when i start a new project on adobe premiere it will ask me what type of project I want to use:
24P, NTSC and PAL, (NTSC and PAL are reffering to interlaced i assume, couse there is a separate project for 24 progressive)... now if my camera is shooting on NTSC-interlaced and my DVD player supports progressive scan on both NTSC and PAL, and my TV i PAL-interlaced, what project type should i use of the above three...?

Well the camcorder DV footage is pure NTSC interlaced. You want to leave it that way while doing any post work like editing. If you need to convert from NTSC to PAL then that should be done at the very end when you are about to do the DV to MPEG-2 DVD spec conversion. Even then pure NTSC interlaced to PAL is one of the hardest conversions to do on this planet! It is much easier to go from PAL (interlaced or not) to NTSC than from pure interlaced NTSC to PAL.

9.telecine process is the one that will convert progressive cinema frames to NTSC interlaced frames, ? and IVTC is the process from interlaced NTSC to progressive NTSC?

IVTC is short for Inverse Telecine. This applies to an interlaced 29.970fps NTSC source that came from film. It often has a 3-2 pattern meaning there are 3 progressive frames and 2 interlaced frames. The IVTC process will attempt to reconstruct the progressive frames so that you end up with progressive NTSC at 23.976fps. This does not work with pure NTSC interlaced like you get from a DV camcorder.

10.encoding in Divx or Xvid, can i add chater or make menus, like in MPEG2 encoding (DVD format), what about VCD and SVCD, are these any good, i am really having a hard time decideing what type of encoding should i use. quality and size both matter

MPEG-4 formats like DivX and XviD are really only good for progessive video. They can do interlaced video but as of now they really don't do it correctly so doing interlaced MPEG-4 is out of the question. Since you have pure NTSC interlaced footage you must de-interlace it if you want to make a DivX or XviD of it. De-interlacing the footage will destroy the quality and the fluidness of the motion.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[tmh]

I'll just add a bit to the DV capture part, as Fulci did an outstanding job on the others (mostly great learning for me also, as I normally just use DV footage and jpgs.

If you remember that DV is not technically "captured" but actually TRANSFERRED to the hard drive, it goes a ways towards better understanding the process. Therefore, unless frames are dropped, any capture should be the same as another quality-wise. Different apps have features like running the camcorder during capture and how the video is broken up, etc. WinDV is a small app that always works great for me.

If you are using USB (1.0 OR 2.0), then THAt is your problem. Firewire (IEEE-1394, iLink) cable is the only way to do the transfer, regardless of what your camcorder manual says. I learned this the hard way so just accept it and use firewire if you're not already.

"Type 1" and "Type 2" Dv are different as to whether the audio is captured as a seperate stream or not (I think). What's important is the NEXT step. Many encoders only handle one or the other. Windows Movie Maker captures as Type 1, WinDV lets you pick either, I think.

[jagabo]

Some NTSC camcorders have a 29.97 fps progressive mode. No frames will have interlace comb lines when viewed on a PC.

Some have 23.976 fps progressive, but it's stored on tape with 2:3:3:2 (or other pattern) pulldown so some frames will be interlaced when viewed on a computer.

[FulciLives]

Some NTSC camcorders have a 29.97 fps progressive mode. No frames will have interlace comb lines when viewed on a PC.

Some have 23.976 fps progressive, but it's stored on tape with 2:3:3:2 (or other pattern) pulldown so some frames will be interlaced when viewed on a computer.

True but that is all pretty rare stuff ... no?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jagabo]

Some NTSC camcorders have a 29.97 fps progressive mode. No frames will have interlace comb lines when viewed on a PC.

Some have 23.976 fps progressive, but it's stored on tape with 2:3:3:2 (or other pattern) pulldown so some frames will be interlaced when viewed on a computer.

True but that is all pretty rare stuff ... no?

Yes, both tend to be only on high priced camcorders. But I didn't want the OP to think it wasn't possible.

[roise_r]

hi and thanks for your answers... sorry that it took me so long to reply, but i was ...internetless for almost two weeks now...

before posting, i just want to add the followings: i use firewire cable, my video camera IS NTSC, i use both,NTSC and PAL mini cassetes, my TV is PAL, both my camera and TV are interlaced and most importatly i want to be able to play the end-up videos both on computer and TV, so i would want to stick interlaced, which is good, couse i don't have to run the additional processing of de-interlacing...

A progressive TV will have technology built-in to either perform an IVTC or to deinterlace the video so that it appears normal. Progressive video on a DVD is made to play back on a normal interlaced TV just fine or if you have a progressive TV you put the DVD player into progressive scan mode.

i have played DVDs on my player with and without the progressive scan mode... and there is absolutely no difference ... the picture still remains normal and good quality... how come?
i use from time to time the analog video-audio cabel, with which i can watch my video in the old-fasioned way by just pluging my camera to the TV with the analog video-audio cabel, (S-Video is tha name i think) and i have absolutely no problems playing NTSC cassetes from the NTSC camera to the PAL TV, what does this mean, my TV is NTSC? ...which i am sure it is not...! or in fact i doesn't really matter...?

"Type 1" and "Type 2" Dv are different as to whether the audio is captured as a seperate stream or not (I think). What's important is the NEXT step. Many encoders only handle one or the other. Windows Movie Maker captures as Type 1, WinDV lets you pick either, I think.

now, i use adobe premiere pro, some people lynch me for doing that, but i think it's a good option for me, as i work for a company, and money are not my issue, i like it becouse it has everything in it... capture, edit, which i have never used for now, i am not sure where are the edit options, but i will find out... and encoding to MPEG-2 with menus and chapters included... so my question is... i noticed that if i drag-&-drop the captured video to the time-line, adobe will automaticly separate the audio and video and place them adjacent to each other in the same time-spot... and from there i have full control to eather video or audio, so there is not much difference in capturing DV to type1 or type2.... right? or i didn't get thet quite well...?

[jagabo]

i have played DVDs on my player with and without the progressive scan mode... and there is absolutely no difference ... the picture still remains normal and good quality... how come?

What kind of cable are you using between your DVD player and your TV? If you are using s-video, composite, or cable coax you will never get a progressive image. Those cables only carry interlaced video. A standard definition NTSC TV displays only one thing -- 59.94 fields per second (50 fields per second PAL).

i use from time to time the analog video-audio cabel, with which i can watch my video in the old-fasioned way by just pluging my camera to the TV with the analog video-audio cabel, (S-Video is tha name i think) and i have absolutely no problems playing NTSC cassetes from the NTSC camera to the PAL TV, what does this mean, my TV is NTSC? ...which i am sure it is not...! or in fact i doesn't really matter...?

Many (most?) PAL televisions will display NTSC signals.

i noticed that if i drag-&-drop the captured video to the time-line, adobe will automaticly separate the audio and video and place them adjacent to each other in the same time-spot... and from there i have full control to eather video or audio, so there is not much difference in capturing DV to type1 or type2.... right?

I don't know Premiere but I can verify that the difference between type 1 and type 2 is that one has two copies of the audio.

AVI files have "streams" of audio and video within them. The two streams are usually multiplexed within the file. That means there are a series of little "chunks" alternating between audio and video. Each chunk is labeled as either audio or video within the file so the decoding program knows which is which.

When a type 1 program captures from the firewire port it receives DV data which already has audio and video multiplexed together. It simply saves the DV data as a video chunks within the AVI file. There are no explicit audio chunks. A type 2 program makes a second copy of the audio from the DV data and saves it explicitly as audio chunks.

As was mentioned earlier, some program can only deal with one type. But there is no reason an editing program couldn't deal with both. So if you've tried both in Premiere and both work, you shouldn't worry about it.

3.when i capture with movie maker's capturing tool and after that i play the raw captured video with classic media player, just after caputre, (before closing movie maker), it will play the video interlaced (the interlace artifacts are clearly visible), and the video it somewhat brighter, very pale, but brighter, the moment i close movie maker, the interlacing will dissappear, and the video will become darker... is there a specific reason for that...?

Here's what I suspect: Microsoft's DV codec automatically BOB deinterlaces when playing a video in Windows Media Player. Since Moviemaker is an editing program, not a media player, it has some way of overriding that deinterlacing. When you terminate WMM it stops inhibiting deinterlacing. The same may be true for the colors -- WMM is forcing different color correction than WMP. I had a Nvidia graphics card a while back which would display slightly different colors if multiple media players were open. The first would have normal colors, the rest would be slightly off. This was related to the fact that only one program could use video overlay at a time. You might try updating your video card drivers. In any case, video usually looks dark and drab on a computer monitor because they have very different gamma settings than TV.