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  1. 10th Apr 2009 00:45 #1
    roper512
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    Hey all, this is my first post so go easy

    I am a graphic designer and have a lot of experience with photoshop / illustrator / flash / etc.. I have started to dabble with video (using premiere and after effects) and am getting my first camcorder soon (Canon Vixia HF S-100 (AVCHD))

    Now, in preparing for getting the camcorder I have been doing a lot of research and experimenting in premiere/AE as well as using different ways of encoding video to see the effects. Unfortunately as I delve deeper into my research it just becomes more and more confusing..

    At first I thought... Okay I'll just use premiere or final cut pro, edit my video, encode using h.264 or whatnot and I'll be good to go.. But it seems like the more I read, the more people I see using stuff that uses command lines, not using NLE's to encode, cutting edge codecs that were updated 2 seconds ago, etc.. I figure if the best quality video came from a simple push of a button, I wouldn't be seeing all these forum posts about such things, right?

    So as I was reading forum posts here I saw a lot of people recommending MEgui (which needs avisynth).. So I got both of those, opened up megui and i tooled around with it for a bit, the presets seemed fairly self explanatory but still.. It really seems like an insane amount of variables these encoders use to determine your final output.. Why can't we just have a slider from 0 to 100, move it where you want your quality, and bingo? (BTW, that wasn't a question to be answered.. I know I'm oversimplifying something that is probably very complex, just venting Also for some reason when I would open a .m2v file I had (1920x1080) and ran it through several of the x264 presets in megui, the video went from being nice and smooth originally to seemingly slow-mo for the entire duration of it after encoding.. <shrug>

    Despite all of this though I'm eager to learn.. I am very interested in learning about video, the ins and outs, the best workflow and ways to do things but I need help.. I feel like I'm a tech savvy guy, and I learn stuff quickly but the amount of information overload just by searching anything about codecs or video encoding on google melts my brain. With all of that said I will list a few things I'm going to be doing with the camcorder, what I'm looking to do with the video when I'm done shooting with it, and perhaps you guys have best practices when it comes to workflow, encoding, etc.

    I am going to Bora Bora this June with my fiancee for our honeymoon and I wanted to get fantastic footage of our trip as it's most likely a destination we will not be able to afford to go to more than once a decade.. So I decided to use this as my starting point for learning video.. I have gotten a good grasp of how to EDIT video using premiere, and adding visual stuff using after effects.. So that part I'm not too concerned with.. However outputting video is where I'm most confused..

    I'd like to be able to do these things with video when I'm done editing:

    - Youtube HD (and obviously SD for their default)
    - Vimeo HD
    - iPhone / iPod / iPod Nano
    - DVD
    - Bluray

    Now like I said in the beginning of the post I am picking up the brand new Canon HF-S100 camcorder that is AVCHD and I believe it puts out .m2v files? I have downloaded a few peoples "raw" footage and this is how I've been experimenting and such but I'm having mixed results... Had everything been fine and dandy from the get-go in premiere I would probably not be writing this right now.. Unfortunately I've run into some hiccups (especially when encoding to h.264 which is "the" encoding to use right now, and which has driven me to many google searches).. And what the heck is the difference between using h.264 as the FORMAT as opposed to the codec? For example I can choose Quicktime as the format, and then choose the CODEC for quicktime (h.264 for example).. Or I can choose just h.264 as the format... ugh.. <head spins> And it seems like no matter what settings I used for h.264 (as the encoding format in premiere) my video would have lots of stuttering/skips.

    Anyways, I appreciate any feedback you can give me in getting me moving in the right direction.. I hope I'm at least sort of on the right path here and looking in the right places for advice on where I'm trying to get..


    Thank you!
    Adam
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  2. 10th Apr 2009 03:25 #2
    lordsmurf
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    I am a graphic designer and have a lot of experience with photoshop / illustrator / flash / etc..
    You're a professional.

    So as I was reading forum posts here I saw a lot of people recommending MEgui (which needs avisynth).. So I got both of those, opened up megui and i tooled around with it for a bit, the presets seemed fairly self explanatory but still.. It really seems like an insane amount of variables these encoders use to determine your final output..
    A lot of the hobby folks, cheapskates, techies, etc -- they like to make this harder than it has to be. My daily workflow involves about 2+ hours of Adobe software use, sometimes up to 16+ hours worth on those all-day workdays. Sure, I have many other tools, for many special needs, all kinds of encoders, both high-end commercial and freeware, but you don't need any of that, from the projects you've mentioned.

    Why can't we just have a slider from 0 to 100, move it where you want your quality, and bingo?
    Why doesn't a microwave have a "gourmet meal" button?
    Why doesn't a camera have a "take a pro quality photo" button?
    Ain't that easy.

    perhaps you guys have best practices when it comes to workflow
    Ah-ha! See, your professional side is coming out. Most people forget about the workflow, they try to skip directly to the burning stage of DVD creation, or playing stage of non-DVD video.

    I have gotten a good grasp of how to EDIT video using premiere, and adding visual stuff using after effects.. So that part I'm not too concerned with.. However outputting video is where I'm most confused..
    Then you've already learned the hard part. Adobe Premiere CS3-CS4 come with professional output tools, forget all that other hobby crap, it's not needed.

    The only tool I might suggest for you beyond the CS3 or CS4 package is an easier authoring program, if you want to create DVDs, because Encore sucks. TMPGEnc Authoring Works is TDA + BluRay authoring, and might be up your alley. Easy to use. Not as much leeway to get creative, however. It values simplification over customization.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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  3. 10th Apr 2009 09:28 #3
    filmboss80
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    Did you already purchase the AVCHD camcorder? A lot of people have been encountering difficulties with that format in the editing stage. I wouldn't rule out HDV, if I were you. Seriously.

    Also: there are many, many books and videos on editing. If you're willing to take the time to learn, you'll get the job done.

    And I agree with everything Lordsmurf has already said.

    Good luck.
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  4. 10th Apr 2009 09:53 #4
    poisondeathray
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    h.264 is a format, but there are different implementations of that standard - different "flavours" or brands if you will. For example, Apple quicktime has an implementation, as is Mainconcept, Ateme, and x264 is the open source implementation. They have to meet certain minimum characteristics to be labelled h.264.

    To confuse you more, quicktime is also a format. It is characterized by the .mov container. However, you can use different compression schemes within that container, e.g. h.264, Apple JPEG, Sorensen h.263, etc...

    Your camera should output a .m2ts or .mts transport stream, which is the common container for AVCHD camera. Premiere CS4 should import/editing this natively, but it's a CPU intensive format. You system specs might not be up to par, and that might explaing the studdering.

    For your end format goals, I agree with lordsmurf - CS4 should be enough to do it all except for blu-ray and dvd authoring. Instead of TDA, I would recommend DVD Architect 5+, which has the ability to do much nicer menus for blu-ray (overlays , PIP video, transparency , masks, animation) and is basically drag and drop, pretty easy to use once you get started. Since you are a graphic designer, I'm sure you have the skills to make very nice menus. It doesn't do the popup menus or java enabled interactivity (BD-J) that you might find on studio authored blu-rays. For that, you will need Scenarist or Blu-Print - but they are very expensive and less user friendly to use. Encore CS4 does suck for the most part, but the 1 redeeming quality is the ability to do pop-up menus on BD, I don't know if that's important for you. I should mention if you just want simple menus or there is free options as well, multiavchd (or tsmuxer if you don't need menus)

    If you are having studdering in the output with both megui and premiere, this suggests to me either 1) system problems (codec/splitter or old pc) or 2) workflow/user error

    A) What software are you using to playback? You need a multithreaded decoder for HD h.264 content not to studder on playback on most systems. A free one would be ffdshow+haali media splitter, but you have to set it to decode MT in the configuration.

    B) What settings did you use for the footage (sequence settings and export settings)? Is this interlaced input and output? What bitrate, fps, dimensions did you use and did they match the sequence settings?
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  5. 10th Apr 2009 11:02 #5
    roper512
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    Originally Posted by filmboss80
    Did you already purchase the AVCHD camcorder? A lot of people have been encountering difficulties with that format in the editing stage. I wouldn't rule out HDV, if I were you. Seriously.

    Also: there are many, many books and videos on editing. If you're willing to take the time to learn, you'll get the job done.

    And I agree with everything Lordsmurf has already said.

    Good luck.
    Understood.. Appreciate the concern but I have seen tons of amazing footage out of this camera and seems to be perfect for what I'm looking for.. I already know its possible to edit and output great video with no hitches (as there's plenty already on vimeo)..

    Thank you for the feedback
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  6. 10th Apr 2009 21:58 #6
    roper512
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    Thanks to everyone so far who have responded with well thought out posts. I really appreciate it!

    poisondeathray - Well.. When I export video through quicktime format and h.264 codec I get pretty good output.. No jitters or skipping or whatnot.. It's only when I use h.264 as the format... Also, you mentioned that the AVCHD camcorders output .m2ts or .mts.. I guess the file I downloaded from someone was not raw footage as it was a .m2v file... I'll probably just wait til I have the camcorder to start jiving with encoding options.. (I should get the camcorder early next week)

    What difference in quality would I see between using quicktime format/h.264 compression within that, versus using h.264 format? would I get a better end result if I could encode it without all the slow-mo action going on?

    Also, thanks for the software recommendations for DVD/BD publishing!


    lordsmurf - Thanks for being so straightforward, I can definitely appreciate that .. So all the stuff regarding complex methods for encoding video is mostly a hobbyist thing and won't really give any better quality than a more simple solution? In the end I'm about quality and if that means a bit more complexity, I'm all for learning, but if what you said is the case, then maybe it's not necessary for me to get as in depth.. Thanks for all the advice!
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