24p footage to DVD

[Dj Petro]

I have edited some 24p footage in Premiere Pro 1.5 and then made a 24p (23.976) mpeg to use in Encore to make my DVD. When I watch the DVD it looks like the playback shutters on scenes with quick movements or fast pans. Is this typical with this type of thing when going 23.976 to 29.97? I used the dgpulldown app to flag my file before authoring. Is there anything else that may help remedy the situation?

Thanks

[jagabo]

If you are talking about a fast (15 times a second) jerkiness, most obvious with medium speed pans with little motion blur, yes, this is normal.

The only thing you ever see on standard definition TV is 59.94 fields per second. 24p material is displayed by alternating between showing each frame twice and three times (24 * 2.5 = 60). This leads to the jerkiness.

Even in a movie theater you see jerkiness with pans because 24 frames per second isn't enough to give fully fluid motion.

[Dj Petro]

it seems like a jerkiness as a result of having frames missing to complete fluid motion. Like I said before it is evident on clips with quick movements or fast pans. The rest seems to be fine. If this is a normal type of thing when going for 24p to 29.97, then how do commericial DVD's keep from having these types of issues with footage?
I wished the videographer had used 30 frame versus 24p, but he wanted the DVD to have the "film" look and I told him I could edit and produce a DVD from it but I didn't know of how the finished results would look since I haven't done one of these before. I usually deal with DV footage. Now he is asking me about it and I cut out clips that gave serious problems but I don't know much else I can do. I do want them to be happy with the product they recieve, so I have been scrambleing to find a answer to this issue. It appears though that this is a normal type of thing when you telecine 24 frame footage to DVD.

_

[adam]

There will always be slight jutter on certain scenes when dealing with telecined footage but in my opinion it is extremely subtle. If you are saying this is worse than what you are used to with NTSC footage, than I think something may actually wrong.

Try watching the clip on your pc before adding the pulldown flags. If the jerkiness is there too than the telecine is not the problem and it is not normal.

If the problem does occur only after adding the pulldown flags then make sure you are using the correct settings (and this will also correct anything set improperly during encoding). In dgpulldown you should have prog_seq marked as interlaced and prog_frame marked as progressive. Mixing these up can cause jerkiness during playback.

[jagabo]

As I understand it, DV supports 24p by performing a 3:2 or 3:2:2:3 pulldown onto the tape. So what you have is really 29.97 fps interlaced (unless you have inverse telecined it already). Try treating it that way and see what happens.

http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/

[edDV]

The essence of the "film look" is that it will be shot using film technique. That means overcoming the jerky 24fps motion with tripods, actor direction and highly skilled pans and zooms.

That is issue #1. Issue #2 is 24fps is way too studdered to be viewed directly even on film. Simple film projectors repeat frames 2:2 to at least get to a 48fps "refresh" to avoid flicker and trick the eye into thinking it is seeing smooth motion.

A computer will play at 24fps if you let it and it will look jerky.

Conversion from 23.976 to 29.97fps really means upping the refresh to 59.94Hz by repeating fields, not frames in a 3:2 pattern (for "telecine"). This needs to be done on an interlace display to see the full effect. This results in removal of flicker but causes what is known as "judder" due to the 3:2 sequence. A good union cameraman is trained in camera pan and zoom technique to minimize the effects of judder.

If the display is going to be progressive, then a 23.976 fps source will be frame repeated in a progressive DVD player using a 3:2 frame repeat process resulting in a 59.94 frame per second display. 3:2 judder will still be present but the picture will have full frame resolution and flicker will be effectively removed.

The yuppy pretenders want "film look" without learning film shooting technique. Put the burden back on them to get an education.

As you can tell, I have lived in your shoes. There is only so much that you can do to "fix it in post".

[Dj Petro]

It seems that I am stuck like chuck then.
I trusted the videographer to film the footage correctly and with some jerky pans and camera movements there are parts of the film that look jerky. 95% of the film looks okay because alot of the action is in the frame and not with the camera. But when you have action and camera movement, it becomes jerky due to pans that are not smooth. I guess this is something that they will have to live with. I did remove as much of the problem footage as possible to help it appear more smooth.

The guy was so insistant on using the 24p, that I was like... "sure, whatever you want to do". I knew I could edit the footage and get it to DVD. I know now the points to cover when filming and using this type of footage to make it useable.

About the pulldown... I used a Panasonic 24p project in Premiere for editing. I heard that when you import the footage it removes the pulldown put on it on the camera side. Is that true? Could that have given me the problem that I am facing now with the footage? I didn't think I would have to use a NTSC project for that type of footage if I was going to maintain the "film look" of the 24p footage.

I have learned alot about 24p footage and about shooting and editing it. Thanks alot for all the help everyone. Thanks.

_

[edDV]

It seems that I am stuck like chuck then.
I trusted the videographer to film the footage correctly and with some jerky pans and camera movements there are parts of the film that look jerky. 95% of the film looks okay because alot of the action is in the frame and not with the camera. But when you have action and camera movement, it becomes jerky due to pans that are not smooth. I guess this is something that they will have to live with. I did remove as much of the problem footage as possible to help it appear more smooth.

The guy was so insistant on using the 24p, that I was like... "sure, whatever you want to do". I knew I could edit the footage and get it to DVD. I know now the points to cover when filming and using this type of footage to make it useable.

About the pulldown... I used a Panasonic 24p project in Premiere for editing. I heard that when you import the footage it removes the pulldown put on it on the camera side. Is that true? Could that have given me the problem that I am facing now with the footage? I didn't think I would have to use a NTSC project for that type of footage if I was going to maintain the "film look" of the 24p footage.

I have learned alot about 24p footage and about shooting and editing it. Thanks alot for all the help everyone. Thanks.

First read the adam wilt link above on the difference between 3:2:3:2 and 2:3:3:2 and make sure you are getting that right with Premiere Pro. That makes a huge difference (assuming the Panasonic DVX100 is being used).
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/

The pretenders using other camcorders use heavy blur to cover mistakes. These "motion blur" techniques are well covered in Apple Final Cut Pro websites and can be quite entertaining to read.

[Soopafresh]

Post a sample on a public download site (rapidshare.de) and ask the folks in AviSynth forum at Doom9.org to have a look. Lots of experts here at Videohelp and lots of experts over there as well.

[jagabo]

Put the tape into a DV camcorder and view it on a standard definition TV via s-video or composite. That is as smooth as it will ever get (on SDTV). If you aren't getting that same smoothness after burning to a DVD something is wrong with your process.

[edDV]

Put the tape into a DV camcorder and view it on a standard definition TV via s-video or composite. That is as smooth as it will ever get (on SDTV). If you aren't getting that same smoothness after burning to a DVD something is wrong with your process.

Excellent point.

[Dj Petro]

I have seen adam's page and it has good information on it.
I think though that it is as someone said... the product of poor film technique as 95% of the video is fine. It is only certain portions that have large and quick sweeping pans and quick movements on frame ex.(inside of cockpit on plane has it is taking off). All of these shots are handheld so there is camera movement from that.

I don't have the camera to check the tape on a SD TV. All that I have is the footage on my computer captured from the camera.

As for the pulldown... I am not sure how to control that with Premiere Pro.
I created a Panasonic 24p project
Captured footage from camera
Edited footage
Created .m2v file from Premiere at 23.976
Use dgpulldown and inserted proper flags
Created Encore project
import .m2v asset ran through dgpulldown
exported DVD files
Burn to Disc

I don't think I missed anything so that is why I feel it is a product of film technique used by videographer.
I am going to check my dgpulldown settings to make sure I have them correct as Adam said earlier.

Thanks all!

_

[jagabo]

Repeat everything as a 30i project.

[Soopafresh]

Might the field order also be wrong - BFF vs TFF ?

[edDV]

Handheld is difficult with 24p. That is why the Steadycam is used by the pros for 24p.

480i/29.97 gets you an effective 59.94 Hz. motion sample as does shooting 480p/59.94, 720p/59.94 or 1080i/29.97.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/steadicam.htm
http://www.kiwifilm.com/steadfaq.html

[vhelp]

First of all, I don't beleive that they would produce such a cam
and have this sort of issue. So, it must be somewhere else in the
timeline of events - always boils down to user-error

Repeat everything as a 30i project.

I was going to suggest the same thing. Using the sources original
frame rate 29.970 fps, and encode that way. If you don't want to
wait for a 2-pass, just use a CBR and do a fast encode test and
author to dvd disk and compare on your tv set for fluid smoothness.

Because this is the cams normal frame rate, you would see the same
level of fluid smoothness, as if you had connected the cam directly
to your tv set and view it that way.

Now, if you attempt to perform the above test, (I hope you do) and
you see fluid smoothness in those pans, then this will indicate to
you (and us) that your setup for IVTC is not working out properly
under your MPEG encoder app and other tools.

EDITED: - regarding dgpulldown and flags for 3:2 pulldown

.
.

ADDED: - DV sources and BFF vs. TFF

After reading Soopafresh's comment on BFF vs. TFF, and remembering
how TMPGenc will fail on the 3:2 pulldown if the Fields are reversed,
this can cause the MPEG encoded source to produce interlaced 24p
material. I have seen this mistake in my own projects. And this is
usually caused by choosing the wroing Field Order parameter.

DV is always BFF (bottom field first) and if this was not choosen,
..is another possible cause of poor fluid motion results.

(Assuming that the above test is performed) I would like to suggest to
you that you try another MPEG encoder app, which includes an IVTC feature,
and try that one. Mind you, this is assuming that you did actually
perform the test above, and it passed with fluid smoothness.

-vhelp 3889

[Dj Petro]

I would like to try using a 30i project but how do I take the edits that I have done in the 24p project and apply them to the 30i project. I don't want to take all the footage and reedit the footage together again.

Does anyone know a way to do that? Perhaps I should just test it on some of the problem areas and see what the result is. As I am typing I think I will just do a quick test before I worry about messing with all the 5 hours of footage again.

Thanks.

[vhelp]

(after you save your project) ..

I think you do that by start fresh with a new project, by draging
(or opening) a new .AVI source file into the app. And go from there.

When you're done with this test project, just re-open your saved
project.

( remember the Field Order note above.. DV is BFF (bottom field first) )
Sometimes, the labeling is worded completed different. For example,
in Canopus ProCoder v1.5, (after I drag an .AVI file into the app) it
initializes some field params, etc. And, under Video, it will list
the field order like this:

Interlacing: [Lower/Bottom Field First ]

which is the same as saying, BFF (or bottom field first)
Just make sure that your MPEG app is set to BFF.

-vhelp 3890

[jagabo]

Yeah, just make a new project to test out a few short problematic segments. If they turn out better you'll know something went wrong with the orignal project.

[edDV]

If this was a Panasonic DVX100 using "advanced 24p" mode then what you have is 24 fps motion in that recording with fields recorded as follows.

Top row is the DVX100 24p acquisition.
Second row is as recorded to tape or sent over IEEE-1394.
Bottom row is the Adobe Premiere Pro timeline.


If you play this as interlaced 60i DV, it will have a 2:2:3:3:2:2:3:3 fast slow judder that will be most noticed during pans and zooms. "advanced 24p" is an intermediate format and is not intended for distribution.

If this sequence is properly loaded into Premiere Pro as "advanced 24p", you will be back to steady 24 frames/s on the timeline (no judder). After editing, this can be encoded to DVD MPeg2 as progressive or telecined to normal 2:3:2:3:2:3 interlace resulting in normal telecine playback judder.

The camera motion issues discussed above are true for anything shot 24 fps vs 59.94.

[Dj Petro]

I have conducted the test and also going back to the original capture footage I have noticed that there was no real improvement with that footage. I think that it is simply camera technique that has caused problems with the pans. I have learned that a steady cam or tripod is needed if you are going to shoot this type of footage. Since I didn't shoot the footage, then there is really nothing I can do at this point.

I am going to edit out or around the problem clips and tell the that there is really nothing I could do with those clips to correct them. This is the way the guy that hired me wanted to shoot the video so it is really on him. I was only hired to edit and create DVD's from the footage.

I really appreciate all the help and information about using 24p footage. I have learned tons. This is a good learning experience and I will better be able to deal with this type of footage next time.

Thanks again.