Blu-Ray Vs HD DVD

[Doramius]

Holy cow. I went to the CES show here in Vegas and saw the big HYPE about Blu-Ray and HD DVD. Way cool technology out there people, butThis was by far the biggest thing at the convention yesterday that people were flocking to see, other than Bill Gate monster new Windows OS.

Okay, here's the scoop. Blu-Ray seems quite excellent. Dual layer technology allows about 50GB of storage space on one side. Also higher read speeds and nice clean burns with very few errors(meaning fewer coasters). It's a premium technology. However, it's also at a Premium Price. The cheapest player FOR SALE (yes they were taking orders for the players) was about $1400 US. I quickly stepped out of the booth and walked over to the Toshiba area and checked out the HD DVD technology. (BTW - they also had a mass of movies already on display for both formats)

Anyway, The HD DVD Was quite a bit less expensive. The most expensive player I saw was going for about $850 and they all could play HD DVD & regular DVDs. The Blu-Ray didn't say anything about playing regular DVDs. It's Max size was like 30GB dual layered, from what I saw. But holy smokes, the cost was more up my ally. The movie discs were only about $4-5 more expensive than regular DVDs. Blu-Ray's movies were like trying to buy a new XBOX or PS2 game at a whopping $35-50, depending on how popular the title. HD DVD also boasted low error rates. I probably would have ordered a player and gotten a movie if I hadn't already spent all my money getting HDDs and other equipment of the sort a few hours earlier. (FYI - See the show and write down what you want, prioritize, and go back later. I'm kicking myself still.)

OK, now I must admit I'm more impressed with Blu-Ray technology. It seems a bit more happening into people who need increased storage and high bit bit audio & video imaging. I see Blu-Ray definitely being better for gaming systems overall as time passes. However, I'm cheap and on a tight budget, but I'm not willing to sacrific the quality. For movies and video on a general basis at home, I'd side with HD DVD, unless Blu-Ray can bring it's prices down, A LOT!

[yoda313]

The Blu-Ray didn't say anything about playing regular DVDs

I'm SURE they'll be able to play standard dvds. Otherwise it will be DEAD-ON-ARRIVAL.

[Super Warrior]

Hmmm i wonder if downsizeing a disc from 50GB(blu-ray) to fit on a 30GB(HD-DVD) would give nice quality?

Like the way you can downsize a Dual-layer to fit on a single layer,and get nice quality.

Is bringing 50GB-down to-30GB,compareable to 5GB-down to-3GB?

[yoda313]

Hmm would that be possible??? Cross converting the content? Aren't they of different content? I thought bluray was a super mpeg2 variant while hddvd was using a newer form of mpeg4?

[Super Warrior]

I'm SURE they'll be able to play standard dvds. Otherwise it will be DEAD-ON-ARRIVAL.

The offical blu-ray site says players will be compatable with normal DVDs and CDs.

[yoda313]

See I thought they would Thanks for the confirmation super warrior

[Super Warrior]

See I thought they would Thanks for the confirmation super warrior

Says it all here: http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#2.4

I had no idea HD-DVD could hold as much as 30GBs.Seems like a better and more affordable option than blu-ray.Also i'd guess a DL-HD disc could hold about 60GBs,even better.

30GBs as it is would still be WAAAAY more than any movie requires, even so-called "High-definition" movies. Blu-ray is just overkill with its 50+GBs.

[yoda313]

There are plans for BD-ROM (read-only), BD-R (recordable) and BD-RE (rewritable)

Oh great their changing the rewritable abreviation for bluray?? What the hell is up with BD-RE??? All of the previous formats use RW to denote rewritable. Thats crazy.

[Super Warrior]

There are plans for BD-ROM (read-only), BD-R (recordable) and BD-RE (rewritable)

Oh great their changing the rewritable abreviation for bluray?? What the hell is up with BD-RE??? All of the previous formats use RW to denote rewritable. Thats crazy.

Maybe thats a typo.The E-key is right next to the W-key afterall...

[yoda313]

I'd hope so.

[waheed]

Cost is ALWAYS going to be a major deciding factor between the two camps. My vote goes for HD-DVD in this case.

[Doramius]

the 50GB Blu-Ray and the 30GB HD DVD is the DL format. That'd be the max they go at. I figured they would play the original DVDs, but like I said, it didn't say anything about it.

The push is for Blu-Ray by a lot of companies, but honestly I'm still leaning towards HD DVD, unless Blu-Ray can bring the cost down FAST!

I also see and hear consumers at the show talking more about HD DVD. It's high quality at an economical value. They are also talking about being able to multi layer the HD DVD discs. No major information on it, so it might be just companie hype/hear-say, but imagine triple or quad layered discs for HD DVD. The official statement the spokesman said was that the players would be able to read many more than 2 layers on one side of a disc, though discs over 2 layers on a single side are not currently produced. That statement seems to be what is igniting the possible rumors of triple & quad layered HD DVD discs.

[ROF]

I thought HD-DVD was 15GB SL and 30GB DL?

[Doramius]

I thought HD-DVD was 15GB SL and 30GB DL?

It is.

size was like 30GB dual layered

[Dasun]

Cost is everything to Joe consumer and that is why I wonder just how well this HD technology is going to fly in the near term. Until the Sony or Toshiba camps can produce HD players for 50 bucks and movie disks for 14 bucks then the majority of consumers will stay away - afterall how many actually own a TV that can benefit from the new HD DVD like hardware, better question how many consumers have eyes good enough to benefit?

Anecdotally, most people I have talked to think DVD looks absolutely fabulous (even when the aspect ratio and/or colour is wrong!) and that is why I am wondering if the industry is not walking down the super audio CD route and DVD music route....

Incidentally I once say DVHS on a 50" Plasma, man I went weak at the knees - that is what video is supposed to look like! I hope the new HD DVD stuff still does that to me!

[Doramius]

Again, the HD DVD & Blu-Ray is mainly for size purpose. The fact that you can put higher quality bitrate video on it is the added benefit. SuperBit discs are already out on the market. It's only a standard length movie on a dual layer disc. The bitrate is so high for the quality, that it takes up the entire size of the DL disc.

Well, you don't have to spend the money for the SuperBit DVD. And people back-up their movies drom DL to SL discs all the time, but sacrifice quality of picture because it doesn't really change much.

Again, the main factor is the disc size itself. 30GB disc for $2 OR 50GB disc for $6. HD DVD movie for $22.95 OR Blu-Ray for $49.99.

You're right, when it comes to the movie itself. Both are high quality, and you may not notice much difference, it it's noticable at all. Why buy the higher cost movie? A mind set like that will cause better sales for HD DVD technology.

It all comes down to what the consumer wants and how much they are willing to pay for it. (IE: zip drives vs flash drives, VHS vs Betamax)

[edDV]

Anecdotally, most people I have talked to think DVD looks absolutely fabulous (even when the aspect ratio and/or colour is wrong!) and that is why I am wondering if the industry is not walking down the super audio CD route and DVD music route....

In my travels over the Christmas holidays, I found that most people (even those with HDTV) have their systems set up wrong. Most are looking at DVD over composite or S-Video connections and haven't experienced 16x9 progressive playback yet*. Most aren't connected properly for 5.1 Dolby sound. When I hook their systems up correctly and get the setup menus right, they are astounded at what standard DVD can produce.


*particularly plasma and LCD HDTV sets look awful with interlace composite S-Video connections. $20 component cables from Walmart made a world of difference.

[caffe_espresso]

Well, this stupid war between BR and HD-DVD will push customers to alternative ways to watch HD.

Pay per Wiew stuff that can be saved for a week on hard drive will become much more attractive, except for those who really wants to BUY the movie (25%??) I guess that we'll see in a near future multiplication of these kind of services.

And all those DRM locking systems that limits a lot freedom is another reason for people to hesitate before buying HD-DVD or BR.

Cheers.

[edDV]

I prefer a download model. Something like Netflix but with minutes of turnover rather than days.

For that to work there needs to be a file timeout and low prices to rewatch the same title. That would eliminate the need for local storage.

[Baldrick]

My vote goes to 1080p downloadable renting service.

Has anyone seen any hddvd or bluray video authoring standards out yet(menus,etc)? Just found the bluray standard....very complex... http://blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication_0305-12955.pdf

[shardison]

I agree that many people purchase HDTV equipment and then some "Tech" from the cable company hooks it up with s-video or worse. Most people can't tell (or care to tell) the difference between 5.1 surround and a mono sound track. I have a 50 inch Panasonic Plasma and the HD Directivo hook-up with the proper HDMI cable, and a basic 5.1 surround system. Everybody loves the the SIZE of the TV, but nobody seems to care about the huge QUALITY difference between standard and HDTV. I live to see HD and won't accept less. The rest of my family (and most other people I'd guess) don't really give a damn. As if I am some TV nerd, I actually get flack for having the nerve to change the channel to the HD version when the family is watching some crappy compressed satelite crap on the standard channel. Same show in beautiful high-def and all I get is a bunch of rolled eyes.

Now comes along actual HD movies on a disk, and I can't wait. Will anyone else care? Not likely. I don't think I've ever heard someone say, "DVD picture quality sucks". Quite the opposite. If people can't get exited about the difference between some stretched-out blurry picture on Directv, then they aren't going to care about an incremental quality change to DVDs. The Blue-Ray or HD-DVD "extras" better be awsome or no one will buy them.

[ebenton]

The Blue-Ray or HD-DVD "extras" better be awsome or no one will buy them.

That's what I can't figure out. What the hell will they put on a 50GB disk, other than the movie, that is any better than the extra crap they already put on standard DVDs? Interview with the director's dog? Interviews with old grade-school classmates who used to call the star "stinky"? Maps to all the movie theaters that ran the movie when it was in theaters?
A tours of the factories that made the DVDs, the popcorn, the soda, the cheese dip, the taco chips?
"Just think of all the extras!" is a non-reason to buy Blu-Ray or HD DVD movies, except for the minority of people who care about such inane trivia.

[edDV]

The Blue-Ray or HD-DVD "extras" better be awsome or no one will buy them.

That's what I can't figure out. What the hell will they put on a 50GB disk, other than the movie,...

The movie itself will fill the first BD layer (less than 2hrs @ 25Mb/s) and more than one layer for HD-DVD. Authoring capacity won't be much different than it is today unless two sides are used..

[Steeldestroyer]

As far as size goes (whether Blu-Ray or HD DVD), I think you guys are missing some key issues. You ask what else they can put on a disc, and my answer is that they won't necessarily put more on the disc...

The fact of the matter is HD takes up a lot of space, and drinks up a lot of processing power. And the better quality HD is, the more space it needs. What is needed in professional circles is a platform that is robust enough to support the growth of the video industry. Personally, I prefer Blu-Ray because of its superior growth potential...if I am going to have to pay to change formats, why settle for less? I won't have to change formats again quite as soon.

But you guys make a point when saying that consumer buying decisions will influence what wins on a whole. And price does indeed play a big role in that.

In regards to the price, I would add that not many consumers really want to pay $850 for an HD DVD burner...both BR and HDDVD are in the early-adopter stage, and prices will drop. What they settle to, no one really knows until it happens.

[edDV]

Over time and several chip generations, it should be possible to get HD players under $100 and the media cost should reduce >10x with volume.

I think the early adopter market will be hungry for alternative 1080p HD distribution models. The proposed BD and HD standards are both overly restrictive for network usage. High end consumers will be looking for a networkable solution with support for portable media.

[doppletwo]

Again, the HD DVD & Blu-Ray is mainly for size purpose. The fact that you can put higher quality bitrate video on it is the added benefit. SuperBit discs are already out on the market. It's only a standard length movie on a dual layer disc. The bitrate is so high for the quality, that it takes up the entire size of the DL disc.

Well, you don't have to spend the money for the SuperBit DVD. And people back-up their movies drom DL to SL discs all the time, but sacrifice quality of picture because it doesn't really change much.

Again, the main factor is the disc size itself. 30GB disc for $2 OR 50GB disc for $6. HD DVD movie for $22.95 OR Blu-Ray for $49.99.

You're right, when it comes to the movie itself. Both are high quality, and you may not notice much difference, it it's noticable at all. Why buy the higher cost movie? A mind set like that will cause better sales for HD DVD technology.

It all comes down to what the consumer wants and how much they are willing to pay for it. (IE: zip drives vs flash drives, VHS vs Betamax)

Price is what HD-DVD has going for it.


Bluray has the 500 gorilla, the PS3. The PS2 was one of the major factors in the fast adoption of DVDs. The PS2 is still the best selling DVD player of all time. Sony got DVD players into peoples houses. Once you have a player you are much more likely to buy the media. Also when the PS2 was released DVD players were still $200-$400 USD. Standalone DVD player prices fell to $50 the year after the PS2 came out.


DVDs were adopted faster than any other technology.


Unless Sony eff ups the PS3; then mostly likely bluray will catch on first and more widespread.

[Doramius]

I guess the next step or question is, will they create a machine that crosses both sides. DVD standard was agreed upon altogether. Now we got 2 companies that aren't together and are actually competing. Will the formats be blended together across the board, or will they stay separate like XBOX & PS systems? Or will 1 win out totally and the other fade away the way of CED, 8-Track, and Betamax.

[ROF]

I guess the next step or question is, will they create a machine that crosses both sides. DVD standard was agreed upon altogether.

while i do believe we will see all-in-one machines eventually. The current DVD market is split amongst three different standards. There is DVD+R, DVD-R and DVD-RAM. It's only been in the last few years that we've seen drives supporting more than one of these standards. Before this you either had a +R drive, a -R drive, or a RAM Disc.

[Doramius]

I guess the next step or question is, will they create a machine that crosses both sides. DVD standard was agreed upon altogether.

while i do believe we will see all-in-one machines eventually. The current DVD market is split amongst three different standards. There is DVD+R, DVD-R and DVD-RAM. It's only been in the last few years that we've seen drives supporting more than one of these standards. Before this you either had a +R drive, a -R drive, or a RAM Disc.

That has mainly to do with just the PC Drives and the disc format. The media, again, was something that was agreed upon across the industry. The last REAL separation of media by company was VHS & Betamax. VHS won out, but there really isn't much in the way of machines that play both styles of cassette. With the Disc media, it SHOULD be much easier to do, but will the companies allow their technology be passed across. As stated in another thread, there's no way that XBOX 360 games & PS3 games are going to be played on the other company's system. They won't let it happen. That's where the true battle comes in. One format has to completely beat out the other, or we're going to have a separation of technologies the same way as APPLE vs M$, Nintendo vs Sega, Sony PS vs M$ XBOX, and PAL vs NTSC. Of course, with HDTV out on the market, PAL & NTSC may get wiped away over time. It's true though, just check out EdDV's signature. The only real thing that will be separating future television viewing across the seas will be the digital enryption for each region.

There is no PAL on a PAL DVD and there is no NTSC on a NTSC DVD.
There is only YCbCr and audio.

[Wile_E]

The Blue-Ray or HD-DVD "extras" better be awsome or no one will buy them.

That's what I can't figure out. What the hell will they put on a 50GB disk, other than the movie,...

The movie itself will fill the first BD layer (less than 2hrs @ 25Mb/s) and more than one layer for HD-DVD. Authoring capacity won't be much different than it is today unless two sides are used..

30GB does not seem like a lot, for HD content. 1920x1080, even using MPEG4, will take up space. 15GB for each layer is not very impressive. It will max out at two layers, just like DVD. They will never increase layers, because of cost, or compatibility issues.

The whole industry (and consumers) should wait a few more years for HDV holographic discs. I don't like all this compression (MPEG2/4). The individual frames of the film (I-Frames) are not there. I want all frames, just like DV and HDV. I would also like the ability to playback DV-AVI files on the players. Of course, they didn't make this possible, even though HD-DVD has enough space for regular DV files. They want everyone to use crappy MPEG compression. I've had too many DVD's that I saw where scenes looked very static. The background was not animated properly, and would only update every few seconds. This is unrealistic, and annoying.

Another thing I don't like is all the advertisments on DVD. I pay for a DVD, and still, I have to see advertisments, FBI warnings and trailers for other films. This is a waste of space and you can't skip most of it. Too many DVD's have too long of warnings/intros that you can't skip. I hate popping in a disc, only to wait 30 seconds until the main menu shows. If this is how HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will be, I won't buy it. I'll rip my own movies without all this junk in it.