upconverting DVD output?

[MilesAhead]

Hi. I'm new to HDTV. I have a Scientific Atlantic 8300HD set top box
using component inputs on a Sony Wega HDTV. I have a Philips DVD player with progressive scan hooked into the other component input on the
TV. The set top box is able to upconvert 480i CATV input to 1080i and it looks great on the TV. OTOH the Philips progressive scan pales by comparison. Has anyone looked into techniques to take the DVD player output and input it to another box to upconvert to 1080i?? Seems like it would be an obvious enhancement.

The SA set top box has composit inputs. On their website it says it can "pass through" output from other devices to the TV. But no mention is made of upconverting anything along the way.

[edDV]

Hi. I'm new to HDTV. I have a Scientific Atlantic 8300HD set top box
using component inputs on a Sony Wega HDTV. I have a Philips DVD player with progressive scan hooked into the other component input on the
TV. The set top box is able to upconvert 480i CATV input to 1080i and it looks great on the TV. OTOH the Philips progressive scan pales by comparison. Has anyone looked into techniques to take the DVD player output and input it to another box to upconvert to 1080i?? Seems like it would be an obvious enhancement.

The SA set top box has composit inputs. On their website it says it can "pass through" output from other devices to the TV. But no mention is made of upconverting anything along the way.

Each TV (and HDTV technology) handles this differently. Define your TV more specifically.

Most CRT and DLP HDTV sets upscale analog interlaced inputs to 1080i. 480p progressive inputs from the DVD player are either displayed directly in 720x480 progressive or upscaled to 540p or 720p, etc. It all differs.

LCD and Plasma displays can't work in interlace mode at all. They must convert every input to their fixed native progressive resolution and frame rate.

Upscaling DVD players may help or harm the situation depending on the TV. Personnaly I prefer a progressive DVD playback for movies. For NTSC, a player that upscales to 1080i limits progressive display unless the TV then attempts a realtime inverse telecine.

[MilesAhead]

Each TV (and HDTV technology) handles this differently. Define your TV more specifically.

The model number is KV-27HS420

Seems like it has DRC settings for interlace, progressive etc that operate when using the composit or cable/antenna as input. They are greyed out when using the component inputs. Without the set top box the picture is standard size so that makes me think it isn't upconverting anything, 'cept maybe to 480p.

In the set top box 1080i and 720p modes with standard video tv source, borders are added to the screen and a higher res picture occupies the center of the display. I don't think I'm getting anything other than 480i or 480p from the DVD component input.

[edDV]

Each TV (and HDTV technology) handles this differently. Define your TV more specifically.

The model number is KV-27HS420

Seems like it has DRC settings for interlace, progressive etc that operate when using the composit or cable/antenna as input. They are greyed out when using the component inputs. Without the set top box the picture is standard size so that makes me think it isn't upconverting anything, 'cept maybe to 480p.

In the set top box 1080i and 720p modes with standard video tv source, borders are added to the screen and a higher res picture occupies the center of the display. I don't think I'm getting anything other than 480i or 480p from the DVD component input.

Interesting, I have a similar Philips set with similar features. I'll tell you what I know and others can add to or dispute the analysis. I'm not coming from a position of internal manufacturer knowledge. I'm just an interested consumer.

First thing to understand about this class of CRT is the screen dot pitch limits viewable resolution to around 800x600. Higher scan rates behind the "dots" or "stripes" do not display any higher viewable resolution. Manufacturers are highly secretive about true CRT resolution. Higher end broadcast CRT monitors usually state approx 550-800 "lines of resolution" which translates roughly into 660-960 horizontal pixels. They have to justify their specs to that audience.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/docs/brochures/di0003g%202004%20monitor%20guide.pdf

First lets look at KV-27HS420's interlace sources:

Reading the description at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002S9G0K/102-3031836-7992152?v=glance&n=172282

"Digital Reality Creation MultiFunction circuitry--upconverts standard interlaced (480i) video sources to 960i or progressive-scan 480p."

So inputs are interpolated 2x vertically and horizontally oversampled at some unknown rate consistant with display resolution. My guess would be a 960x960 interlace frame buffer (half 1920 in H and double 480 in V). 960 is an interesting number.

SD interlace inputs can also be interpolated to 480p (720x480) for progressive display. Beaware of motion errors in this mode. For highest quality, 59.94 interlace would be interpolated into 59.94 fps progressive. A lower quality interpolation would toss half the motion resolution for 29.94 fps progressive and may suffer motion artifacts.

Progressive inputs:

"The set's auto 16:9 enhanced mode detects anamorphically encoded widescreen program sources and offers full picture resolution on the video program, wasting none of its usable lines of resolution on the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen."

That means 480P DVD (720x480) is displayed pixel for pixel as 480P with a TV generated letterbox. That means all of the vertical resolution is concentrated into the 16:9 image and hopefully matches the limits of the dot pitch. In other words, all of the screen resolution is used to display DVD in V and H when using 480P mode.

On my set I like this mode because it is a pixel for pixel representation of what is on the DVD with 23.976 fps DVD progressive frames repeated in a 3:2 pattern to produce 59.94 frames per second screen refresh (i.e. no flicker). Some PAL sets repeat frames 4x for 100Hz screen refresh.

In 480P mode, the DVD player controls the image.

Alternatively, you could set the DVD player to 480i mode and let the TV upscale. In that mode, the DVD player introduces 3:2 telecine field repeats and the TV trys to detect and reverse the sequence and display a multiple of 23.976 fps progressive at 720x480P or maybe 960x960 interpolated resolution. After all that the image may or may not look better but it is far removed from the pixels on the DVD itself.

Now lets look at HDTV inputs. This also applies to 720P and 1080I upscaled DVD player inputs.

First lets look at 1080i. This monitor like most in the class are interlace centric with some progressive modes focused on DVD resolution. 1080i as it comes in from broadcast or cable is 1920x1080 29.97 fps. This needs to be downsampled and displayed. It is a mystery exactly how 1080i is downsampled and displayed but my bet is horizontal resolution is filtered down 2x to 960 and vertical is scanned at 1080. CRT dot pitch would limit the viewable resolution to something below 960x720 (probably ~800x600).

720P is broadcast at 1280x720 progressive @ 59.94 fps by ABC, FOX and ESPN HD (cable). Many cable and DBS systems convert 720p to 1080i 29.97 thus destroying the advantages of both progressive and fine motion detail. This TV does the same. 720P is converted to 1080i and processed as 1080i.

Other sets scale 720P to 540P (quarter 1080p) and display a full ~960x540 progressive image at 59.94 fps refresh thus maintaining full motion detail for sports or other action.

Isn't it interesting how often that 960 number keeps popping up?

[MilesAhead]

So IIUYC the best I can do with the TV is put my DVD player in Widescreen normal(interlaced) mode and let the 16x9 enhancement thingy on the TV do its thing.

Whatever the 8300HD does it sure looks better. My thinking is there should be some gizmo I can put the DVD player output through to upscale it before it gets to the TV. If the crummy analog cable 480i looks good after the upscaling through the 8300HD then DVD output should look at least as good. Anyone have any clues?

[edDV]

The analog input to the 8300HD "requires software download" according to the Scientific Atlanta site. You can join the "explorer club" and talk to others that have the box about activating the input.
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/consumers_new/CableBoxes/8300hd.htm

Even so, you should be able to get better DVD results using TV inputs.
There are four DVD modes to try.

1. 480P 59.94 fps progressive DVD player input with TV in 480P mode. This should represent the exact pixels on a progressive DVD. Quality from an interlace DVD depends on the deinterlacer in the DVD player.

2. 480I DVD output with Cinemotion feature turned on.
From the Amazon description:

"The KV-27HS420 also employs CineMotion Reverse 3-2 PullDown technology (often called 3:2 pulldown), a handy feature for watching progressive-scan movies in their native 24-frame format. Digital video mastering introduces a common distortion when adjusting 24 frames-per-second movies to 30 fps video; 3:2 pulldown digitally corrects this distortion, removing the redundant information to display a film-frame-accurate picture."

This feature turns the 480I 29.97 fps input into 480P for display.

3. 480I DVD output with Cinemotion feature turned off (if possible). The TV will then just upscale the telecined 29.97fps DVD player output to 960i (~800x960).

4. Try various upscaling DVD players connected to the HDMI connector in 1080i mode. The upscaling DVD player will then convert and upscale the 720x480 23.976 fps progressive data on a movie DVD to 1080i 29.97 fps. Interlaced 29.97 fps DVDs will be upscaled to 1080i 29.97 fps.

This bypasses all the Sony TV "Digital Reality Creation" and "CineMotion Reverse" modes using only the features in the upscaling DVD player. Mileage will vary.

[MilesAhead]

Try various upscaling DVD players connected to the HDMI connector in 1080i mode.

That's what I'm going with. I've ordered an upscaling DVD player. It also plays divx/xvid that my old Philips 724 doesn't. It's an Oppo and supposedly also has a "region free" remote hack. When I get it and set up
I'll report the results.

[MilesAhead]

Got the Oppo player a couple days ago. I love it already.

https://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers.php?DVDnameid=5195&Search=Search?comments