Stanley "Tookie" Williams

[CoffeeGuy]

He was convicted of the 1979 murders of four people in two separate robberies, a convenience store worker Albert Owens, age 26. A motel owner Yen-I Yang, 76; Tsai-Shai Yang, 63; and their daughter Yee-Chen Lin, 43. Williams has been on death row since 1981, and he has consistently maintained his innocence of all four killings. There's no DNA evidence to cast doubt on his guilt. Of course, there are hundreds of other men on death row who repent of their crimes and would appreciate a little executive clemency, but they don't have movie stars pleading their cases. Oh, and also lacking a publicity machine are the four people Williams was convicted of killing. Death row is brimming with genuinely repentant men, not because some divine revelation has hit them but simply because they have grown older. Tookie Williams is 51years old and his body has softened, his rage dissipated. But don't buy the argument that he's a special case, because he's not. Big-time Hollywood stars, including Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg and Danny Glover, are leading a high-profile campaign to save the life of this convicted murderer on California's death row. I guess Hollywood has their share of low life sorry sacks of shit too.

[adam]

The scariest thing is that now its in the hands of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

This is actually a tough call I think. The guy is bad news anyway. He was one of the founding members of the Crips and continued to lead them from death row. In my opinion, that is in some ways even more destructive than the murdering of 4 people. He has done alot of humanitarian work since then all from prison, and has even been nomitated for the nobel peace prize several times but its all been in an attempt to end the gang war that he helped start...so its kinda too little too late for me.

BUT his murder conviction is what we are looking at in regards to a stay of execution and it really is questionable as to whether he murdered those people. Actually there is DNA evidence to cast doubt, there is a fingerprint and a bloody bootprint that were found on the scene and never identified. They do not belong to Tookie. The shell from the murder weapon was linked to Tookie because he originally owned that gun, but he no longer had it at the time of the murder. It belonged to a couple who were facing multiple felony charges for unrelated matters which were dropped in exchange for their testimony against Tookie. All of the major witnesses who testified against Tookie were either past felons or facing felony charges. (granted these are just the types of people Tookie hung out with.) The biggest hole in the case is in regards to the star witness who testified that Tookie confessed to the murders to him while they were both in jail. But it turned out that the guy was a paid informant planted in the cell to get information. He was even given Tookie's murder file to study. This guy was also facing the death penalty and in exchange for his testimony he was given a lighter sentence with the possibility for parole. The prosecutor also struck all of the black panelists leaving an all white jury. While this isn't improper per se, since then the prosecutor has gotten in trouble several times for racially motivated jury strikes which is a constitutional violation. There are alot of other errors in the record to just kinda make it all seem fishy. The 9th Circuit Appellate court that upheld his conviction stated that there was not one witness who testified against him that did not have another motive for their testimony, aka to get themselves off. Years later when a stay of execution was suggested that same court issued a statement requesting that the stay of execution be granted. Tookie actually has the support of the court that convicted him.

Taking all things into account, it really is plausible that investigators were so overzealous that they essentially framed him in order to get the circumstantial evidence to stick. Here was this prominant gang leader and suddenly there was this murder involving a weapon that he formerly owned. That is their circumstantial evidence and they would have no problem finding people willing to perjur themselves to support it, and that's all it takes.

Then again maybe he did do it...

[ViRaL1]

Then again maybe he did do it...

That's the last thing you want to hear when it comes to a death penalty case.

[Supreme2k]

I say give him the meds. Just another scumbag way past due for his punishment. The only sad part is that it took so long.

[BJ_M]

well if Snoop Dogg says he should go free - that certainly got my vote ....

[Supreme2k]

In the case of Snoop, make it a cocktail for two.

[lordsmurf]

The thing is .... does he serve a better purpose dead or alive? He's already in prison for life, so it shows he cannot get away with murdering people (or at very least, inciting violence) as a little jackass gang banger.

But if he has truly recanted his actions, and is doing his best to teach people to not be in a gang and to curb violence, let him continue to send that message.

If he's a trouble maker at the core, then gas his ass, one less peckerwood to disease this ball of dirt we call home.

I'm sick and tired of homestead terrorists, the gang members that infest so many cities, even the small ones.

[ZAPPER]

Tuff call. Man I am getting old. There was a time that I would have offered to pull the switch simply because a court said that he had to go. I am not anti-death penalty but it does seem as of late that a few cases have been botched and this tends to bring up some doubt. I mean, I actually don't have anywhere near enough facts to make a good call. I would assume that he is guilty and from what I have heard, he probablly deserves it on other counts too. This is some serious shit, well at least for him it is. We must be certian that he is guilty and have followed due process to get him to this point. Has he been a benifit to the world after the crime? Some people think so. Does that erase the crime? Nope. If I murdered my family and then discovered a cure for cancer while on death row would that entitle me to be set free or given a stay of execution? I would hope so for my sake, but I doubt that any surviving family members or their freinds would think so. Are and should our laws be so ironclad that there is no room for exceptions? Tuff call. We can only hope that there was no hanky panky in this case and that it was handled in the most professional manor. Tuff call.

[greymalkin]

i've been following this on national public radio and i think the guy should stay in prison and keep doing these sorts of "public service" things to try and right the wrongs he began...the implications of which have spread far and wide. If he's making progress then maybe he's of better service alive than dead.
I just hope if they do go ahead with the execution Arnold doesn't show up in front of the camera's and say:

"You are terminated!"

[Supreme2k]

No, he'll say "It's not uh toomah!"

or

"Remember when I said I'd kill you last? I lied."

[greymalkin]

or maybe...

"you wont..be back.."

[Epicurus8a]

The Governator has denied clemency for Tookie.

Schwarzenegger was unswayed by pleas from Hollywood stars and petitions from more than 50,000 people who said that Williams had made amends during more than two decades in prison by writing a memoir and children's books about the dangers of gangs.

"After studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wrestling with the profound consequences, I could find no justification for granting clemency," Schwarzenegger said, less than 12 hours before the execution. "The facts do not justify overturning the jury's verdict or the decisions of the courts in this case."

Schwarzenegger could have commuted the death sentence to life in prison without parole.

With a reprieve from the courts considered unlikely, Williams, 51, was set to die by injection at San Quentin State Prison early Tuesday for murdering four people in two 1979 holdups.

[adam]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html

Well, its official. He's been terminated.

I didn't even realize it, there is a movie about his story that was released last year. Jamie Fox plays him and supposedly did a great job.

[LSchafroth]

Arnold did the right thing. Let him burn.

LS

[greymalkin]

yeah..it's tough to say as a bystander. I mean he could have 1,000,000 people rallying for him but they don't know all the facts about the case, evidence..any of the facts about what really happened...so that can't really be used to determine anything..yes even if they are celebrities

[VCDHunter]

I didn't even realize it, there is a movie about his story that was released last year. Jamie Fox plays him and supposedly did a great job.

It's called Redemption or something. Fox does a pretty good job of it.

[lordsmurf]

"He had a just punishment," said Lora Owens, stepmother of one of Williams' victims and a witness to the execution. "Now I just want to get on," she told CNN on Tuesday........ Before Williams went to the execution chamber, Owens said she felt "justice is going to be done tonight."

This makes no sense to me.
She hasn't been able to "get on" in the past 26 years?

Sometimes people veil revenge underneath punishment, justice or mourning. If the guy was genuinely reformed, shown by his trying to help people, did justice/punishment work? Some would say so. And if so, wasn't the execution merely an exercise in revenge?

I still find it odd how "death row" lasted 24 years.

[MackemX]

I don't know if the guy is guilty or not but would you be at rest knowing someone accused of killing a loved one was appealing to be released? How would those big time stars such as Jamie Foxx etc feel if it was one of their loved ones who'd been murdered? It would probably be the complete reverse and they'd be campaigning to get him executed

some of the crimes people commit in the UK, yet get only a few years for killing someone and then get released makes me laugh. How would Prince Charles feel if he knew that someone killed his mother after brutally raping her for example? Would the same punishment happen to someone who did the same crime to some unknown granny from nowhere with no family?, as it does happen

I do forgive people but I guess I'm not the forgiving type when it comes to murder no matter what they do afterwards

[thevoelk]

In regards to the celebrities, it's just their Cause Of The Week to protest for.

While I see no harm to letting someone serve life without the possibility of parole, as long as they never get parole, that punishment should reserved for child molesters, rapists, etc.

Given the violence this man has spawned over the last quarter century by forming the Crips and turning some cities into war zones (and I've been to war zones, but not as a soldier) alone should have gotten him executed.

As rarely as people get executed in the US, I feel it's not used enough. Personally, I feel that if it was used more, it would serve as the deterrent it is supposed to be.

[lordsmurf]

As rarely as people get executed in the US, I feel it's not used enough. Personally, I feel that if it was used more, it would serve as the deterrent it is supposed to be.

I would agree to that .... had the sentence not taken 24 years to be carried out. It would have had more effect 22-23 years ago.

[garman]

As rarely as people get executed in the US, I feel it's not used enough. Personally, I feel that if it was used more, it would serve as the deterrent it is supposed to be.

No death penalty in Canada, murder rates are much smaller (less than 500) as compared to the U.S. that has the needle treatment for murder. 12,600 murders. I guess if the death penality was imposed or frequently used, they would reduce the murder rate in canada.
BTW they release 2 men for murder crimes they did not commit. 1 spent 10 years the other much longer. I suppose they would have been dead if D/P was enacted.
-garman

[thevoelk]

You are right. I mean, as probably most people do, if guilt is pretty much certain in crimes like his, there's no reason he should sit for 24 years. If there's any question of doubt, the accused stands a chance, and it may not be a stretch to say a good chance, of not even getting convicted and having to worry about it.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the idea that it is better to let a guilty man walk free than to imprison an innocent man. But I also firmly believe in justice, but I don't buy any of that redemption BS he and his supporters are crying about. If he cared about life that much, he never would taken four of them from someone else. He murdered three people for $100 in a register. Odds are, they would have gladly handed the money over to save their lives. (As a counter-argument to your statement) I suppose if Williams hadn't brutally murdered them we would know.

[gll99]

I don't know if this guy committed the murders or not but what I don't like is the buying of testimony.
Canada is pretty lenient with criminals and judges are ready at the drop of a hat to throw out evidence against the most hardened criminals on the smallest of excuse about how the evidence was obtained. This forces police and crown attorneys to buy eye witness testimony from those who may themselves be guilty.

Example:
3 guys break into a home and 1 of them shoots and kills the homeowner. They are later caught with stolen goods from the home and 2 of them point the finger at guy #3. They are willing to testify in court for a reduced sentence or for the charges against them to be dropped. With little direct evidence the crown has no choice so agrees.

Now the problem who really did the murder? It could have been #1 or #2 who are close buddies and stick together. In my book they are all equally guilty but the courts don't work that way.

The crown can't prove that with the evidence they have so they have little choice but to take what they have. At maximum, guy #3 at most goes to jail for 15 to 25 years minus good behaviour and this gets him out on parole in 10 to 16 years or even less counting time served at double time waiting for sentence.

Now guy #3 had another option. Knowing that those 2 friends of his turned on him he tries for a plea bargain. This way the police get them all. He says he will plead guilty to manslaughter and testify against the other guys about their role and some other crimes he knows about if the crown agrees to this reduced charge. The crown attorney is not too sure of his witnesses after all they are not too credible and they could still lose the case. The crown attorney also has the chance to get those 2 other guys for accessory, posession of stolen goods, possibly some arms related offences etc.. so weighing all matters, he agrees. Now #3 might get 6 to 8 years or less and be out paroled in 5 years or less. The other guys get 3 to 5 years each and are out on parole in less than 3.

Any of those guys could kill again.

Which system is better?

btw) One of the guy's who testified against Williams is already out on parole in a half way house after robbing and killing an 80 year old man in Canada a few years ago.

[mbellot]

No death penalty in Canada, murder rates are much smaller (less than 500) as compared to the U.S. that has the needle treatment for murder. 12,600 murders. I guess if the death penality was imposed or frequently used, they would reduce the murder rate in canada.

Are those actual numbers or have they been adjusted for population?

Huge difference...


And the death penalty is a deterrant (like it or not).

Not a single criminal who has experienced it has gone on to commit further crimes.

[budz]

I'm assuming the sentence took so long because of the appeals to the supreme and 9th circuit court. Don't they have like 250 inmates on death row at San Quentin? I don't think having the death penalty will deter criminals from committing murders. They won't stop to think, Oh! well I better not kill someone because I can get the death penalty.

He took 4 lives without a blink of a eye. The victims families will probably never be able to recover from their losses. Moving on isn't the easiest task to do even after years have gone by. It was a sad day for the victims families as well to have relive the nightmare of losing their loved ones all over again.

[garman]

No death penalty in Canada, murder rates are much smaller (less than 500) as compared to the U.S. that has the needle treatment for murder. 12,600 murders. I guess if the death penality was imposed or frequently used, they would reduce the murder rate in canada.

Are those actual numbers or have they been adjusted for population?

Huge difference...


And the death penalty is a deterrant (like it or not).

Not a single criminal who has experienced it has gone on to commit further crimes.

here are some stats. Not sure of year. I believe it's somewhat fresh.
Murder rate in Canada .015 per 1000 people ( aprox 30 Million pop)
Murder rate in US .028 per 1000 (aprox 280 Million pop)
-garman

[thevoelk]

Here's a different perspective. All of the crimes happened in 1979, about 3 weeks before I was born. Since these crimes, to look at it from my perspective, I have:

Gone through elementary, middle, and high school
Graduated from college, even took an extra year to finish.
Have worked for four years out of college.

And he is just now getting executed for something he did before I was around. I think the process has been slow, but in this case I find it hard to believe that anyone, except for the bleeding heart liberals ni California, can say he was deprived of due process, that the trial was flawed, whatever arguement they threw in front of the judge.

His case proves the US Justice system works (it also proves the US Justice System has it's flaws by how long it took). Appeal after appeal, he was found guilty with no evidence of police falsifying testimony, evidence disappearing, or anything else that may have been wrong. Plain and simple, if you take someone's life, you should be prepared to have yours taken from you.

[e404pnf]

Not wanting to go to far too far off topic in to a general discussion re: capital punishment, but can all those who are advocating it answer this question...Are you willing to be the innocent person that the system kills? And if not can you suggest a system that is 100% accurate and never fails?

Personally, I'd answer no to both these questions.

...except for the bleeding heart liberals ni California...

On a side note, I love the fact we use the same language so different! On this side of the Atlantic a "liberal" is someone who believes in liberty rather than someone from the "Looney Left" .

[thecoalman]

I used to be a death penalty advocate but now I'm middle of the fence. Too many people on death row have been found to be not guilty of the crime they were convicted of. Granted most of those people probably belonged in prison anyway but I think we need absolute proof of responsibility before imposing a sentence like that. Even one mistake is too much...

here are some stats. Not sure of year. I believe it's somewhat fresh.
Murder rate in Canada .015 per 1000 people ( aprox 30 Million pop)
Murder rate in US .028 per 1000 (aprox 280 Million pop)
-garman

I don't trust any of those stats completely, I don't doubt that murder rate is higher in the US but those stats can be greatly influenced by how they are reported. What may be reported as a murder in the US may not be reported as murder elsewhere. Just for example are terrorist attacks considered murder?

We can use Iraq and Columbia as an example here, how do you differentiate between the drug killings in Columbia and the terrorist killings in Iraq? Realistically 9/11 could be categorized as murder, are they included in the stats as well. I had a simialr discussion on another forum, a poster was pointing out the homicides by guns was very high in the US, true but they didn't categorize what type of homicide. Murder, justified killing, .... ???

[e404pnf]

I don't trust any of those stats completely...

To quote someone so famous I've forgot their name there are "lies, damn lies and statistics" :P

What isn't in doubt is that there is a lot of qualitative evidence that the "murder rate" (however defined and excluding 9/11) is higher in the USA than in most of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc etc

What would be interesting would be to look at the 'murder' rates in different US states stratified by capital punishment legislation.