what good is a college degree?

[rallynavvie]

It seems that having a 4-year degree is becoming less and less important in the workplace, or at least from what I've been observing lately. There are still a lot of careers that require college degrees but if you think about it that's only because the only proper way of learning the ropes for such a career is done at a college or university. For instance you can't really learn medicine or law properly outside such an institution.

However you can learn many other professions outside of a school, often times on the job. In my case I went to school and got a 4-year degree in air transport to become a pilot. Now regardless of the tumult in the airline industry in the US it is finally starting to come back to life and the few pilot positions are opening up as those senior pilots retire. I've kept my resume circulating the airlines since getting out of school. Just recently I was talking to a new pilot who works for one of the airlines I had applied to. He's younger than me, but since he didn't go into a 4-year aviation school he had more time to spend logging hours in more and different aircraft. So since he had about 20% more time in multi-engine craft he got the job over my degree-backed flight time. The worst part is my tuition cost a lot more than the difference in log time between us, and tuition at UND did not include flight time.

On the reverse I've been doing IT work since I left school without any sort of formal training whatsoever. It started as an entry-level position that favored some of my hobbies with computers, and as I learned the systems our company uses I started getting more and more responsibilities until my most recent move to head of IT for several locations. Even my boss, the lead IT analyst for the region, worked his way up in a similar fashion but even without any sort of college experience at all.

I'm a little disappointed I wasted so much time and money on schooling that it seems I'll never get to utilize properly. I mean I spent so much in student loans on flight time that I'll be paying them back for years. Seems like IT will be my career, and though I do enjoy what I do it is nowhere near the enjoyment I got from being up in the air

Anyone else noticing a trend towards practical experience over formal training?

[Conquest10]

I have seen tons of places that prefer you have experience but also will not even take a second look at your resume if you don't have at least a Bachelors. Realy sucks for me as I technically won't have my degree until I complete my internship and I only have about a year experience when most ask for at least 3. At the moment I can only get entry-level jobs that pay about almost the same as retail stores. So, i'm feeling a lot like you. As when I finally get my degree, I still won't be getting a good job as those prefer a degree and experience.

[baileydog]

Knowing that I had 5 years of being at a location of the largest amount of females in one spot was enough to keep an interest in school for me .
But.. just because one graduates after a length of time doesn't mean that anyone owed me job of any quality or payscale. An internship would have been great but unavailable then for budding engineers , just low paying jobs that put you in special places to learn more of what you spent all that time doing at school. It all worked out just fine tho , as with them that wanted cheap labor I moved on and made it to where I wanted to be. So will you .
All in all , my years at school only told an employer that I was capable of accomplishing large tasks .
So.... good luck

[thecoalman]

Anyone else noticing a trend towards practical experience over formal training?

I think it depends on the industry and the individual .A parallel example would be me and my cousin. I graduated high school and went directly to work for a construction company. Within a year I was making as much as guys that were there for 3 or 4 years (the one guy didn't even know how to determine cubic yards , here's a shovel go dig a hole).

I quit shortly after. My cousin on the other hand had just finished 3 years of tech college for construction at about the time I had quit and couldn't find a job for anything more than what I started out a year ago for.

Now his wife on the other hand is going to graduate from a University with a masters degree in pharmacology. She'll be making more than pharmacists that have been working for 10 years.

[lordsmurf]

Any B.A. or B.S. from an accredited traditional 4-year school, be it private or public. It's a basic need before they even look at you most times. Of course, they don't care what it's in, just that you have one.

Then experience. And only what THEY CONSIDER experience, not what you consider experience, so you can really get fucked over there sometimes.

[offline]

Degrees or higher tertiary qualifications can harm your chances of getting a position if they are not in a field the employer considers relevant. You can't even tell anyone at the job because they put you in that "over qualified" category and assume you'll leave any minute for a better paying position, or worse, that you are doing a lazy job.

[SquirrelDip]

As pointed out above it totally depends on what degree we're talking about - It's pretty hard to become a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer without a degree.

[e404pnf]

Any B.A. or B.S. from an accredited traditional 4-year school, be it private or public. It's a basic need before they even look at you most times. Of course, they don't care what it's in, just that you have one.

Yep, this is certainly the case in the UK too (although they work us harder over here so most undergrad degrees only take 3 years ).

That’s not to say you can't get a good job without a degree - you just need to use a little common sense. If you want to work in one of the 'trade industries' you may be better placed with an apprenticeship rather than a degree. If you want a 'professional' job an undergrad degree is a must.

There will always be some folk who have no idea what they want to do. In those cases get yourself a descent degree. As has been mentioned earlier a degree shows more than just academic ability. They prove you have many transferable skills that can look very impressive on your CV. And more importantly you'll learn a lot about yourself and have a great time in the process

Degrees or higher tertiary qualifications can harm your chances of getting a position if they are not in a field the employer considers relevant. You can't even tell anyone at the job because they put you in that "over qualified" category and assume you'll leave any minute for a better paying position, or worse, that you are doing a lazy job.

I think that is becoming less of an issue in the UK at least. Over here the government is pushing for 50% of school leavers to go into higher education (not sure what the current figure is, but isn't much lower then 50%). With that in mind, the 'over qualified' tag is becoming less relevant.

[rallynavvie]

As pointed out above it totally depends on what degree we're talking about - It's pretty hard to become a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer without a degree.

Well yeah, as I said in my first post there are fields which require institutional learning since there is no other way to learn what you need to know in that field. Of course there are exceptions there sometimes as well, and those exceptions are often based on practical experience.

As I said, I was passed over for someone without a degree just because they had more experience. If it were down to simple demonstrated ability/knowledge I'm sure I'd be at or above that person's level regardless of their practical experience. The most insulting part of that incident was that I never even got interviewed, which almost makes me want to phone them and complain. Obviously they can't say why someone got the position over me but if I weren't even interviewed I'd have a reason to complain about it. But that would just get me blacklisted from that airline. Airlines are as bad as casinos when it comes to blacklisting people.

A good friend of mine went to school for a couple years before giving up on a degree. Now he's a bank manager and making loads of money. He started working as an assistant bank manager at a small branch (close on to being an entry-level position), then after a year became the manager for that branch, and not even a year after that moved up to a larger branch as manager. The reason he has moved up so quickly is much the same reason I'm doing so well in my current position: he learns quickly and is good at what he does. Or perhaps it's because we're both Eagle Scouts, I dunno

Face it, for many of us a degree is becoming the member card for an elitist society where we can brag about our schooling, the dues being what we paid in tuition. Meanwhile those who went right into the workforce are making more and making it sooner than we are, often getting the jobs we were hoping for as we were going through school. Some say that on average you'll end up getting paid more in the same position if you have a degree than if you didn't, but then that must not take account the strict salaries handled by huge corporations. My salary advancement is the same as everyone elses in my position regardless of schooling. Same goes for the airline, your pay is based on your seniority.

[SquirrelDip]

@rallynavvie : was the degree listed as a requirement for the job or just a preference?

If it were a requirement then I'd also be a little pissed that the person who was hired did not meet the requirements for the position.

[Guest]

BA/BS=GED/HS diploma 25 years ago.

Necessary and unlikely to put you on easy street as it once did.

[shelbyGT]

Masters are becoming more popular it seems. I'll be getting mine in a year or two when I start taking night classes.

[garman]

I think a degree works great in conjunction with experience. You also have consider where that degree comes from. I'm sure employers will take notice if your degree came from Oxford, Yale, Harvard or JimBob's University of Eubonics. -garman

[VideoTechMan]

Unfortunately, degrees seem almost a joke nowadays. My uncle recently gotten a Masters about 2 years ago and he is jobless. In addition, alot of people who have degrees are getting laid off or simply no jobs for the degree they studied for.

ANd for alot of places, if its not who you know, its often what you know in terms in experience. Many times I have read in newspapers that you need a BS or MA, and have 5 related years experience in that field as in work exp. Otherwise they wont look at you.

Fortunately for me, I have learned most things on my own without any kind of formal training. I taught myself computers and how to build them, and now I am teaching myself video production and editing. Many people are amazed of what I know, and the fact that I never took a class for any of what I learned.

Degrees isnt what they used to be anymore.

VTM

[garman]

I have a friend who has finally become a electrician, served his time and became a journeymen. His problem is in most cases no one will hire a license electricain because of their hourly rate . Most will hire a third year apprentice. I'm sure this applies to all skilled labour. Low end jobs get pushed out the country and the skilled labour gets filled by semi-skilled professionals without degrees. I think this is what causing the skilled job shortage. -garman

[Ironballs]

e404pnf, you're right Tony Bliar wants 50% of the UK population to go to university, so at least in the UK a degree will be worth the same as your toe cheese.

IMO, 50% of a large population is not university material.

[rallynavvie]

Is that sort of like Kaa's Law?
In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.

I love it

[tweedledee]

The thing is you don't need a degree to work for yourself.
I read an article once along the lines of, you only need to go to university if you have no talent.
When I was in my teens someone told me, "you'll never be anybody when you work for somebody" I've worked for myself for over 30 years now and would hate to work just to make someone else rich.

[ZAPPER]

Well... Aside from learning the subject matter and how it might apply to your chosen profession it is suposed to show that you can set goals and reach them. Accomplish task set before you, meet deadlines, manage resourses and schedual your time. A large part of schedualing your time should be researching you future employment, either self employment or what firm or company you will be working for.


But, hey what do I know, I flunked out :P

[hoyboy]

In Australia at the moment, at least where I am, if you are a tradesman you are snapped up the minute you enquire about a job. The mines out west are taking a huge amount of tradesmen and more are needed. a lot of people would be better off taking a trade over a degree- especially at the moment.

[tweedledee]

I agree about the tradesmen, I don't think my plumber has discovered currency notes smaller than 50 bucks. I showed him a $20 note once and he said "what's that?" I reckon they charge $500 per day plus cost of supplies.
For example, if you have a 4 hour job, and materials are $100, then it's $350
for cash, $400 if you want a receipt.

[e404pnf]

e404pnf, you're right Tony Bliar wants 50% of the UK population to go to university, so at least in the UK a degree will be worth the same as your toe cheese.

I think in just means employers will have to learn to be discriminating when the see a job applicant has a degree, and realise that not all degrees are equal. Like most people I didn't go to Oxbridge and so would hate to think that I didn't get a job on that basis. But then again, I did go to a good pre-'92 university and did a difficult degree. All things been equal I'd like to think that stood me in better stead than having a Mickey Mouse degree from a crappy poly-versity. This just means that those poor suckers who though that a degree in surfing would be useful are left with lots of debt working for McD's (Bet they don't even start with any stars )

IMO, 50% of a large population is not university material.

Again I agree with you. And thats not meant to sound condescending but Uni isn't for everyone.

My sister and I are a classic example of this. I spent 7 years at University (BSc, MSc & PhD) and have a job that I love. My (younger) sister spent 2 years there arsing around and left without a degree. For 3 years she moved from job to job until now where she has a job she loves. We both earn about the same money, but she doesn't have my student debts and got there quicker. Would I trade? Hell no! I'd hate her job and vice versa. There isn't a right route, its about what's best for you.